Roseburg Tea Party is afraid. VERY afraid.

Carla Axtman

I gotta hand it to Americans for Prosperity (aka the Tea Party), they really know how to play to some people's lizard brains. The rallying cries against "Communism", "Socialism" and "Marxism" and various other irrationally perceived societal ills are endemic to this group. They're used as interchangeable boogeyman buzzwords intended to strike fear in the hearts of what Tea Partiers consider "real Americans".

Their fear, bordering on what appears to me to be abject cowardice, has bubbled to the surface and manifested itself into behavior unworthy of even the nastiest schoolyard bully.

Heather Morse, Douglas County News Review:

A small political gathering of about 18 liberal thinkers at River Forks Park Sunday afternoon erupted in conflict when about 35 members of the conservative tea party intruded upon the meeting, waving flags and holding signs accusing the rival group of being communists, Marxists and socialists.

The liberal group — organized by MoveOn.org — decided to leave the park and move its potluck to a nearby home. Members of the conservative group followed, parking at the entrance of a private lane leading to the home to continue their protest.

Roseburg Democrats Dean and Sara Byers said Monday they told tea party members who followed that they were not welcome to drive down the lane to their home.

The Byerses said they got out of their car to stop vehicles from entering the driveway and one tea party member almost ran them over.

Sara Byers said she was so shaken she called 911. She said a Douglas County deputy called about an hour and a half later and said he had been unable to respond because of other incidents. Byers said she was still considering filing a criminal complaint against members of the tea party for harassment.

A leader of the tea party group, Rich Raynor of Roseburg, disputed the liberal group's version of events.

“They are liars,” said Raynor, director of Douglas County Americans for Prosperity. “That is what communists do.”

Clearly the fine details of what took place are in dispute. What isn't, however, are the overt attempts at intimidation and bullying perpetuated by Raynor and the others that showed up to shut down a tiny, peaceful group who chose to meet to talk. Last I checked, that's still allowed in the US. And while MoveOn is decidedly NOT communist, socialist or Marxist--it shouldn't matter if they are. People in the United States are allowed to discuss and promote those ideas if that's what they really believe.

Why are Raynor and his ilk so desperately frightened? Are their own ideas and beliefs so weak that they can't stand up to a miniscule group even having an opposition discussion about them?

I was a teenager when the Soviet Union collapsed. But I remember one of the hallmarks of that nation was the disallowing of competing ideas. It seems to me that Raynor and his henchpeople are guilty of doing exactly what the Soviets did: attempting to shut down dissent.

Members of the smaller group said Monday they were intimidated by the tea partiers, whom they accused of violating their constitutional right to peacefully assembly.

Roseburg resident Lillen Fifield, 70, called the group's actions an “act of domestic terrorism” and said she was appalled that a peaceful gathering — mostly of women older than 65 — was interrupted.

“It is not OK to go around and intimidate and threaten people. That is not acceptable in a polite society,” Fifield said.

Conservative organizers defended their actions and said they will continue to protest similar gatherings.

“We were there to find out what they had to say and to bring a notice to the public that this kind of thing was going on. Quite honestly, if they have it again, then we are really going to make it well known,” Raynor said.

Raynor said the group believes MoveOn.org is a communist front and said he would not stand for America becoming a fascist nation.

Rich Raynor is a real estate agent in Douglas County and Douglas County Director of Americans for Prosperity. He's also apparently completely unaware of the meaning of the terminology he's bandying about.

I suspect that Mr. Raynor has no idea what he's really afraid of..only that he's afraid. So afraid..so deeply steeped in his own soup of cowardice, that he can't stand even the idea of a small group of little old ladies meeting quietly to discuss something that he quite clearly knows very little about.

By Carla Axtman
July 20, 2011

  • 5:38 p.m.
    Jul 20, '11
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    I'm somewhat surprised that the words 'zionist' and 'nazi' and 'satanist' didn't appear as well.

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    6:14 p.m.
    Jul 20, '11
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    Robinson supporters. Kind of unhinged, like their candidate.

    •
      8:04 p.m.
      Jul 20, '11
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      TLDR: ps. your links aren't clicky.

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      10:45 a.m.
      Aug 10, '11
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      Primae facie this post is not credible. If it had really happened all 14 Demwits would have been interviewed endlessly on MSNBC, which has gone so far as to show a black tea partiers in Arizona carrying a gun to a rally, but cutting his face and hand out of the picture to hide the fact that black tea partiers exists.

      Pro-regressives are slime. They round nup poor mainly black and brown kids and sell them to educrat cartels for Democratic campaign contributions. That's why they lost Wisconsin yesterday and deserve to be flushed socially, and their masters should be put on trial, their homes seized, their citizenship revoked.

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      6:49 p.m.
      Jul 24, '11
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      John, if what you say is true, it is very un-Americans to stoop to this level. I have experienced some of that behavior before at a Pat Buchanan rally. However, I am a member of Moveon.org. And the people I have met are all well informed and well behaved. I have seen right wingers way out of control at a debate in Il. They almost got kicked out of the event. Yelling gets you nowhere. It proves that the opposition is just too stupid to carry on a debate.

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      8:47 p.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      hey, were already over the cliff, your own president said raising the debt limit was a sign of failed leadership (2008) so what has changed????

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        4:34 p.m.
        Jul 23, '11
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        I felt compelled to say this to a few Lefties during the Bush years & I've said this far too many times to Righties lately: If you can't say "our President" then you don't need to be taken seriously as someone who cares for or understands our system.

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        8:52 p.m.
        Jul 21, '11
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        I for one dont beleive it. given the funding of moveon.org, they have a record of creating news by planting people that cause anarchy. Moveon.org is a socialist group funded by someone who openly stated "to destroy America would be my greatest accomplishment". Anyone that would follow him (soros)is akin to skinheads or the KKK. Evil is as evil does.

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            3:22 p.m.
            Jul 26, '11
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            Kari sorry. We're not going away. We're not going to sit down. And we're not going to shut up. :)

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              5:57 p.m.
              Jul 27, '11
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              Okay, how about you just stop spewing garbage, then?

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              9:14 p.m.
              Jul 27, '11
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              OK, I'll be more specific. The comment by Randy Probasco was full of nonsense. If you want me to take him (or you) seriously, please provide the following.

              1. Evidence that MoveOn.org is a socialist group.

              2. Evidence that MoveOn.org is funded by George Soros.

              3. Evidence that George Soros said "to destroy America would be my greatest accomplishment"

              And no, I don't mean a link to some other site where someone else is making the same unsourced claims.

              I mean, an actual source.

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        6:54 p.m.
        Jul 24, '11
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        I think he is trying to say two wrongs make a right. They don't.


    • 11:02 a.m.
      Aug 10, '11
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      If two wrongs don't make a right, does that mean you Leftovers are going to stop excusing Obama's inflationism, deficit spending, wars, civil liberties violations, enforcement of DOMA, etc etc etc etc etc, by saying "Bush did it too!"

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      1:44 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
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      Kari,

      Carla trolls the Conservative sites to look for something to slant. The exact definition of "trolling". We baited her and set her up a while back and she actually fell for it, writing an entire article based off a sceen shot on how stupid the Tea party was. Let's not play dumb here, and pretend Carla doesn't have an extreme bias. This article was titled to smear the Tea Party, although this was AFP, and she got it from an AFP website. We are not AFP. Is there crossover....yes, just as there is with the MUCH larger disgusting display by the left in April 15th, which included known Democrat PCP's. Does that mean the Democrat Party condones this? should I write the article on the Progressive "AKA Democrat" racist, homophobic, anti-american violent hate filled attack on the Tea Party?

      Carla, incites the kind of behavior I witnessed downtown toward the Tea Party. She's doing it with this article. It's dangerous, and it's disingenuous to deny that.

      It becomes tiring watching everyone here pretend like Carla is engaged in honest objective journalism, instead of biased, marginalizing and slanting.

      .......And we all know it. Come on now.

      If she wants to go at AFP, go at AFP. Don't title your article and reference the Tea Party.

      Let's have honest dialog.


        • 8:18 p.m.
          Jul 23, '11
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          actually, I prefer the term "Demi-crat"

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          11:11 a.m.
          Aug 10, '11
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          Joyce what a pompous bossy little would be princess you are. Public school teacher? Or some other type of fat 'crat sucking taxpayer blood?

          Demwits is what you are. Be happy a human even deigns to speak to you, leech.

    •
      11:06 a.m.
      Aug 10, '11
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      How about her smearing and name calling ("lizard brains") in place of an attempt to discuss ideas? For several years now, the Leftovers have been led by a group of actors and comics, many of them high school of college dropouts (Maher, Garofalo, Bernhard) who have told rape jokes about Palin's kids and called people racists and recited tired bromide from Newsweek magazine. While a large section of the tea party have been reading and discussing Hayek, Mises, Constitutional history and theory, books like Tom Wood's "Meltdown" and Johan Norberg's "Financial Fiasco."

      It looks like you simply aren't up to debating them.

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      10:59 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      Teabaggers are what you call yourselves, that's not my fault.


      • 8:29 p.m.
        Jul 27, '11
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        No we don't use that homosexual slur, only you do, you lying hypocrite. Do you use racist invectives too, like your progressive friends April 15th in Pioneer Square, Or do you only use homosexual slurs to smear good people like a loser jerk off?

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          1:53 p.m.
          Jul 29, '11
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          You think homosexual are the only ones who "teabag" in the sexual slang version of that term?

          Guess you never watch Sex in the City. And it WAS a self-applied name until we on the left started laughing at you clowns over it.

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            11:16 a.m.
            Aug 10, '11
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            Sorry pookie you can't have it both ways. Madcow and Maher and all the other fugly little nerds of MSNBC etc popularized the term "teabagger" playing on the irony of the tea partiers in fly over country not knowing how this was a gay sex term. Straight people can perform most sex acts gay people do, but that's not why your side started this slur. Swallow it all bitch.

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        11:14 a.m.
        Aug 10, '11
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        Why are you such a homophobe and so anti-sexual Markie?

        Is that homosexual panic on your part?

        Does your wife know where you go when you go where you go?

        As a gay tea partier I object to your offensive language.

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      2:29 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
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      that is you. you're the mom who lets Rep Matt Wingard use your son Ben for a prop in his videos. twice, or at least that's what i've found.

      you might not see their color (it would probably be a good idea to do so at some point; it actually does have an impact on their life), but Wingard does. and he also sees a good political symbol. it would be the height (or depth) of naivete to believe you don't recognize & condone Wingard's cynical use of your son.

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      7:02 p.m.
      Jul 24, '11
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      God bless you. If you were at a moveon event would you like your kids insulted?

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        8:23 p.m.
        Jul 23, '11
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        A Republican freed the slaves A Republican Congress overcame Southern Democrat opposition to pass Civil and Voting Rights

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          8:25 p.m.
          Jul 23, '11
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          insert Congressional minority helped

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            11:24 a.m.
            Aug 10, '11
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            Rofl. You are a walking gas bag of stale talking points. Anyone who was a voting age Dixiecrat in the 50s or 60s is dead.

            Since then the southern states have been virtually repopulated by immigrants from Asia, Latin America, the Northeast, etc etc.

            You Demtards can't think with both hands pulled out of your pants so you can use your fingers to count. That's why you lost the House, why you lost Wisconsin, and why you are going to have to find another empty suit to run for Prez now that Zero is flailing.

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        8:33 p.m.
        Jul 27, '11
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        Onnce again Mark knowing uses a homosexual slur to smear a good mother showing himself to be progressive jerk, making all progressives look bad and hypocritical.

        Do you throw around racist comments too, Mark?

        Maybe you should call Miss Gurney a racist too?

        Jerk.


      • 11:20 a.m.
        Aug 10, '11
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        Because tea partiers (you have that same speech impediment so many Leftovers from Bawny Fwank to Eugene Robinson to Ezra Klein to EJ Dionne have) oppose your slave trade where your round up poor black kids and sell them to the educrat cartels for Democrat campaign donations.

        We oppose your virulent racist crimes against humanity.

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      3:24 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
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      "As much as I don't see their color, I know that is the very first thing people see when we come walking down the street."

      You just "know" it, do you? It could never be anything else. Like that you're waving offensive placards and signs, screaming hate-filled slogans, or otherwise making a scene.

      Yes, it's because those "people" see your "color". (Clearly because those "people's" "color" is different than yours, or else why would they see it?) Good thing you "don't see their color", right?

      Your racism and bigotry is so obvious, any child of average intelligence couldn't help but notice it. I truly pity your kids.

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        8:40 p.m.
        Jul 27, '11
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        Steven, you're a disgusting individual as you attack a good mother that does not see color.

        You have no right to call this good woman anything, and the fact that you would throw "racist" at her makes you look like one of the lowest losers I've ever seen.

        I'm going to venture that you use race, like any good racist smear merchant would, to attack good people. You're a pathetic loser and you make all the people on BlueOregon look extremely bad.

        I find you to be one of the biggest losers I've encountered....take a bow you piece of sh**.

    •
      7:54 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      Dena, since most Tea Party events and gathering are organized, my question would be this.....how do you know they were Tea Party members? Also, I do recall from some other interactions I have with you.....I see a tendency to IMMEDIATELY assume people are Tea Partyers. Where did this happen? When in the fall? And can I ask a simple question, why do you do that? Why do you immediatly assume those who disagree with you are Tea Party members? Can someone disagree with you and not be a Tea Party member? From what I've read in the news, there are lots that are disagreeing with your organization right now and are not....and by the way, I am a supporter and have come to really like the direction SFC has made in recent months, and have VOICED that to you.....but oh well. I am one of those awful Tea Party members.

      I also think we call agree, just because a person or a small group acts poorly, they are not reflective of the whole organization. I am happy to concede....the ADMITTED Socialist group that acted horribly at Pioneer Courthouse Square is probably an embarrassment to it's whole organization. This is to excuse bad behavior but to recognize there are sometimes those that do not represent their group well. Although, I hesitate to say that because I want to know how you know FOR SURE those you encountered were Tea Party members. I have yet to ever ever ever hear of Tea Partyers acting this way, and showing proof of it. While the Tea Party has video/audio proof time and time again.


    • 10:20 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      PS Just like SFC doesn't like to be lumped with high profile special interest groups in Oregon (you and I know who they are).....I don't like being labeled either. Those who have intimidated your group, yes, call the police and whip out your cell phone and take pics......but bottom line, you don't like being labeled as a trouble maker....so don't do it to those who disagree with you. It goes both ways.


  • 12:54 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    Kari,

    I find you much more reasonable than Crazy Carla, but in reference to the two wrongs, I could ask the same question of you, although that wouldn't really be the equivalent now would it, as we both know that the little incident in Pioneer Square April 15th dwarves the made up tripe Carla is blowing up.

    I'm hosting radio this week, Let's call up Rich Raynor and have everyone on.

    Let's see who's afraid of what. :)

    •
      7:08 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      Good lord, now it's "please come on my radio show."

      John, didn't your mother ever tell you you can catch more flies with honey than you can with screeching lunatic tirades and 3rd-grade-level plays on people's names?


  • 7:18 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    "I'm going to tear this blog up if you're going to continue to smear the Oregon Tea Party."

    Be afraid, be very afraid.

    •
      8:02 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      Sigh......and you aren't defending your view? Okay, oooppps! I passed wind.......you should be more afraid of that.

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    9:53 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    Pleeze! Let's get out of middle school with this "my words are right and yours are wrong" silliness. Can't wait for another topic to appear.

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      8:45 p.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      I dont call you an idiot douchebag so why do you feel the need to provoke us with the teabag comment?
      If you feel so strongly the need to be confrontational why dont we meet and talk about it? I thought the left was all about peace and love and lets all get along. Your a poor example for anything other than a grumpy old man that hides behind the keyboard spouting hate filled comments.


      • 12:14 p.m.
        Jul 22, '11
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        If you're referring to liberals using political pejoratives such as "Marxist" or "fascist", or at least condoning that kind of speech, you have absolutely no leg to stand on here.

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        8:43 a.m.
        Jul 24, '11
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        Why did the "tea party" protests, which were initially funded by Dick Army's Freedom Works, as an astroturf "movement" initially call themselves tea baggers?

  •
    10:41 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    Yes, Bill, the story about default in Las Vegas is an interesting item and therefore I am sure that you are equally concerned that The President, Barack H. Obama, has defaulted on yet another campaign promise to protect Social Security.

    He has embraced Grover Norquist with a big wet kiss and a hug that will melt Marcus Bachman's heart.

    •
      11:00 a.m.
      Jul 21, '11
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      Let's stay on topic please. This is not a post about Barack Obama or Social Security policy.

      •
        11:05 a.m.
        Jul 21, '11
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        Of the 40-odd comments here, only a few of them are on topic. Is there a way to down-vote the off-topic posts? I'm only seeing options for "Reply" and "Like", and that's really not conducive to useful comments when a forum is infested with trolls.

        •
          11:49 a.m.
          Jul 21, '11
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          Vote up the good stuff. In general, we don't have many off-topic trolls.

          We thought about building a down-vote button, but realized that it would end up creating up/down vote wars (as happened with the OregonLive/Reddit feature a couple of years ago.)

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    11:39 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    Teabag, huh, Bill? You still using that homosexual slur? Are you a rascist too like the rest of the lefties that attacked us in Pioneer Square?

    The same folks that called Tea Party members that happened to be black "uncle tom's", "tokens", and "House ni**ers" in front of Ann Marie's children and good Oregon families. Are you one of those, Bill? It appears so.

    And so when a group in opposition to your beliefs organizes to express their 1st Amendment rights, they are a mob, but if they believe what you do, their not?

    Homosexual slurs, racist slurs, astroturf, violence, and hatred all on display by the left......... and you do a good job Bill of bringing it right here to Blueoregon.com

    Did you "feel" threatened by my comment "tearing up your blog"? lol

    The “Teabag” homosexual slur I’ve seen you use to many times to count, doesn’t bother anyone on ourside, but it makes you look like a jerk, and a disgusting hypocrite.

    @Randy, you want to make this conversation about me coming at you with guns ablazing? LoL

    That's really funny. Carla posts a stupid artcile about the Tea Party being afraid, and you want to make it about you being afraid? Who's afraid? It's getting murky down here in the grassy knoll. LoL

    My family are soldiers. My grandfather was a Yugoslav Partisan freedom fighter against the NAZI occupation. Senator Mark Hatfield, a member of my family served this Country in combat in WWII. My father is a U.S. Marine. We are defenders of this great nation and it's foundational principles. You have nothing to fear from me or my Constitutional rights, unless you are trying to take them from me.

      •
        2:28 p.m.
        Jul 21, '11
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        Randy,

        you have attempted to redirect the conversation to me, and have framed the debate as a false choice.

        If you want to talk about my Constitutional rights, my beliefs, and principles as they relate to your fear, I will tell you my family has everything to do with it. I'm holding the Constitution in my hand as we speak Senator Hatfield gave to me. His wife brought my Dad here from the old country after the communists took over Yugoslavia. They grew up as brother and sister. My grandfather , as I said fought the NAZI's as a freedom fighter, and after the war the communists cleaned house in a Leninist 2 stage sweep, putting my grandfather on a hang list and killing many of them that helped them achieve power. Marxism is very personally relevant to me and my family. Considering Mark Hatfield is one of the most prominent Oregonian's alive today, and that these men are the most influential in my life, and my politics today, I think it more than relevant when discussing my beliefs, and your fear of these said beliefs.

        I've spent time in a communist country, and I've seen what happened in the heart of Europe after it failed. The violence the terror. Have you?

        It's all relevant. Maybe you should listen and learn rather than discredit and spin, and you would find understanding, instead of fear of my positions and life experience.

        My guess is you don't really care.

        When you ask me something, and I tell you personal items about my family to explain, it's more than interesting to me that you choose to attack that attempting to discredit me.

        It's rude, but have it your way.

        I'll ignore you, resolving nothing.

          •
            9:05 p.m.
            Jul 21, '11
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            Your attempt to make the tea party members sound "ignorant" was noted but a well published survey showed they are typically of higher education with masters degrees or better. So given our college stupidity, maybe you should explain just what a socialist, communist or marxist is? When you look them up, you will see exactly why we use those terms. Its the old saying about the shoe and if it fits, so why not wear it proudly rather than hiding your true self?

            Dont be ashamed of what you are, just realize we know what you are so we resent the lack of candor. Admit it and lets discuss why we think its bad and how it has never survived as a social political or economical experiment.

      •
        2:08 p.m.
        Jul 21, '11
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        Carla,

        Your comments get more and more dumb as the days go by.

        Bill repeatedly calls out "Teabaggers", a homosexual slur.

        Why don't you ask him not to?

        Sounds like your problem is with him.

        Ann Marie was assaulted by leftist progressive bigots screaming our racist slurs in fron of her children.

        Is this your apology?

        Take a hint from Kari and condemn the behavior we all can agree is not becoming or productive.

        Bill's repeated use of the homosexual slur "Teabagger" makes you all look bad.

        •
          3:26 p.m.
          Jul 21, '11
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          You repeatedly call those you disagree with "communists", "socialists", "Marxists", etc. Those are meant by you to be political slurs.

          So which is it? Are you for this kind of behavior or not? Do you condone this sort of hateful behavior by engaging in it..or do you stop?

          Stones. Glass Houses. Etc.

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          8:52 a.m.
          Jul 24, '11
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          The tea bagger label was self-applied by the initial wave of tea party protesters in 2009. We on the left laughed at and mocked them for using the term because we knew the sexual term for it.

          It is also not a "homosexual slur" given that it opposite gender couples are capable of engaging in the same act that the "slur" is humorous named. Guess Sex in the City is a show you never watched.

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        9:16 p.m.
        Jul 21, '11
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        give me a break, jeez when did the tea party bully anyone. its the left that told the republicans to go to the back of the bus. Its the left that told us to service ourselves orally, its the left that has physically attacked tea party members. It wasn't the right that passed bill after bill without even reading how those laws would affect every man woman and child. The record shows over and over the left financed by big money Soros or Bloomberg who break the law to make a point or hurt the right. Your "progressive" policies are failures everywhere but Woodstock. It was all groovy for three days, but then someone had to clean up the mess.


  • 11:43 a.m.
    Jul 21, '11
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    I can clear up this whole discussion for everyone, but I've never seen most of you folks willing to honestly debate.

    The issue at hand underlying all the tit for tat is IDEOLOGY.

    As Carla mentioned in her dumb article, and wow is it dumb, and I reserve the right to say so as I am the Chairman of the Oregon Tea Party she has repeatedly smeared in negative slanted posts, is that some Americans waving flags called Moveon.org liberals in Roseburg..... socialists, commies, and marxists. Moveon.org is funded by self-professed SOCIALIST George Soros, so fairly accurate. And then those lefties comprised of democrats, socialists, union thugs, and assorted progressives like yourselves ATTACKED us flag waving Americans in Pioneer Square calling us capitalist pigs, attacking our right to free speech with illegal air horns, shouting racist, homosexual, and anti-american slurs while threatening and engaging in violence.

    So it looks like we have an ideological conflict.

    We have progressive big government marxists, and we have capitalists who believe in individual rights, economic liberty and limited Constitutional government. I know you don’t like the label Marxist, but I do not use it derogatively, only descriptively. I've found that if we can't be honest about the ideological conflict, we can't resolve our problems. I would like to resolve our problems, but sniping at a near non-event in Roseburg to discredit a legitmate movement of ideas, while ignoring the MUCH larger occurance much closer to home in Pioneer Square that paints your side in a very bad hypocritical light, doesn't get us to talking. It only hyper-polarizes. I'm OK with that, because I believe that your side is losing this battle on all fronts, but I would much rather see us talking honestly and openly about our beliefs, resolving our differences or at least identifying the real problem, so we can work toward equitable solutions for all.

    If you are willing to do that, we would have to start by stating our own beliefs, principles, and goals instead of villifying the opposition, knocking down strawmen, redirecting conversation to taking points, marginalizing honest opinion, or attempting to personally discredit in lieu of actual debate. Maybe I’m wrong, but I get the feeling that you folks don’t want to debate ideology, principles, and goals openly. I get the feeling you are afraid of us, the opposition, catching fire as it has, if the ideas are presented honestly, which is ironic considering the title of this post. Let me know when you would like to begin in earnest.

      •
        3:10 p.m.
        Jul 27, '11
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        This is the person who has said "The main enemy of the open society, I believe, is no longer the communist but the capitalist threat." And that "The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States."

        I mean if you just read the words he wrote, how can you not conclude that he is a socilist, not a communist, but a socialist.(http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/soros.htm).

        You clearly cant call him a capitalist thats against everything he believes in. Yes he is weathy (one of the most in the world), but that doesnt make him a capitalist.

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          2:53 p.m.
          Jul 28, '11
          (Show?)

          Devin - I appreciate that you gave an actual citation, since it gives us something tangible to discuss. That said, I'm tempted to ask if you read through Soros' article, since it doesn't say what you suggest it says.

          In the article you cite, Soros is talking about the greatest threats to "open societies" in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. He does not say that capitalism itself is the threat, but "laissez-faire capitalism," which "holds that the common good is best served by the uninhibited pursuit of self-interest." In addition, he holds out the type of "robber capitalism" he sees in post-Soviet Russia and Singapore.

          That's a very big difference. It's the absolutism of market fundamentalists Soros sees as fundamentally threatening to open society. What's more, even Tea Partiers frequently rail against "crony capitalism." Would you call these folks socialists? I doubt it.

  •
    12:55 p.m.
    Jul 21, '11
    (Show?)

    Kari,

    My answer is, yes. We agree. .......and thank you for your honesty. I would assume there are many more things we can agree on which is a much better way to start a dialog. :)

    Patrick, if you didn't start out with the old Koch Bros. thing, which calls for a George Soros tit for tat, I have to say you gave an honest assessment, and I would gladly sit down with you and keep it cordial. Is your side willing to do the same?

    This conversation has taken such a nice turn, I'm a little taken aback, and possibly now actually "afraid" for the first time as per Carla's post of where this is going. LoL

    Just imagine, the Oregon Tea Party and Blueoregon sipping tea, cool-aid, and micro-brews trying to actually resolve our differences and understand one another for the betterment of all.

    Scary times we are living in. :)

    You all let me know if you want to continue on this new path of civility, and I'll happily oblige.

  •
    2:48 p.m.
    Jul 21, '11
    (Show?)

    The topic of this thread is that Roseburg Tea Party Members are Afraid..VERY Afraid.

    Therefore, the fear of the named group as well as all citizens of the State of Oregon and of the rest of the country is elevated when the President, without cause, puts default of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security on the table. This is particularly true when it is being proposed in conjunction with further tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.

    Fear in Roseburg has been elevated by Obama; fear in Roseburg is the topic of this thread.

    •
      3:28 p.m.
      Jul 21, '11
      (Show?)

      Fear in Roseburg was elevated by people who are afraid of "communism", "socialism" "Marxism" and "fascism", as articulated by the Tea Party leader.

      Let's try and stay on topic. Shall we?

  •
    5:06 p.m.
    Jul 21, '11
    (Show?)

    No Tea, Kari? ;)

    We can do beer.

    I'll talk to him, and I've gotta say, I believe you, but it concerns me that is the first time you've heard of the April 15th fiasco, as it garnered LOT'S of national attention. Notice the youtube posts have over 150,000 hits.

    The local media intentionally blacked this out. I spoke to Channel 2 that day, we all know Channel 8 is in the Square, and the Oregonian claimed they were unaware, inspite of the fact that we sent out multiple press releases to them and the Tribune picked up the event days before.

    There is an on going investigation at PSU, and much to this story, and as I've pointed out, J. Earl, a Democrat PCP helped organize and set up the facebook page to attack us, and is seen at the event.

    I know many of you don't care, but you should, as our local media blacking out the violence and not reporting increases the potential for something bad to happen by emboldening those who engage in this kind of dangerous hateful behavior. We had multiple scuffles and one arrest.

    Do you know Earl?

    •
      2:52 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      Yeah, never heard of it until now. I don't hang out on Tea Party blogs or on Fox News. No offense, just not my cup of tea. :)

      And no, I don't know Earl.

      I would like to see the unedited raw footage - including any second-camera footage of the event showing what the camera operator was doing to elicit such a response.

      I don't think there's any excuse for that sort of stupidity, but I also don't think there's any excuse for provoking people - which, according to Shane Jackson in this thread, is what was happening.

      •
        2:05 p.m.
        Jul 26, '11
        (Show?)

        As a person that was there watching this occur. I can say there was no provoking the people (other then coming up as close as they were with a camera shown at them if you consider that provoking them). Yes the videos were edited to show the really nasty parts, but there were tons of bad stuff that wasnt shown or didnt get caught on camera, it was really bad out there.

    •
      8:40 p.m.
      Jul 21, '11
      (Show?)

      I recognized three as regulars who I have seen in and around the saturday market. The black who dresses in his Jesus style robe was at the last obama showing in portland with a group of his own spouting with a megaphone. the police made them leave since they had no permit. He kept telling me to go home. Go home? yes, go back to europe, you stole this country. a real loon but a dangerous loon. he is also the one calling the black tea member an uncle tom.

    •
      4:58 p.m.
      Jul 26, '11
      (Show?)

      Steve, the one video clip I've had time to look at so far identifies one of the shouters, finger-wavers etc. as president of the PSU branch of the International Socialist Organization. I've never seen him before. I do also recognize a woman with whom I've conversed fairly frequently, also a member of the ISO; she does not appear to be doing those things. The ISO is a Trotskyist group that broke from the main line of Trotskyism because they didn't defend the Soviet Union as a "deformed workers' state" but analyzed it as "state capitalist" i.e. using the state to constitute a capitalist ruling class (not my view, just reporting). They have a very strong line that progressives should "break with the Democrats" & have a strongly critical view of President Obama (as do I though that's neither here nor there) -- it is just laughable to lump them with say the DPO. It is striking that no one in this discussion seems to have called out Mr. K over his use of "the left" and his assertion that anyone he labels that way is responsible for all of the actions of anyone else he labels that way, yet he is hypersensitive about Carla calling the AFP tea partyers (who almost certainly are all tea partyers even if some tea partyers aren't AFP).

      If these folks won't pay attention to the difference between supporting government action as a tool for social good in an openly debated manner, and totalitarian repression, they can't understand that their false descriptions are actually are insults to people with liberal democratic values.

      George Soros may or may not regard himself as some variety of European social democrat -- but he came to the U.S. as a refugee from communism and to smear him as a communist is just a lie (and probably would be regarded as a smear by any self-respecting communist too).

      Fwiw the behavior and language on the video isn't typical of my experience of ISO folks either, though it looks like they had a presence there and that the ones not doing it themselves didn't try to stop anyone else. So far I don't recognize other people.

      I think Carla is right about fear but I think there is a lot of fear of the tea partyers among liberals and prograssives and non-liberal leftists, and that as with many of the Tea Party folks that mixes with anger. The Tea Party wants to make my life a living lurid hell when I reach old age and my kid's worse. Whether or not that's their intention, that will be the effect of their policies. It does make me afraid, and it makes me angry. When they shout down other people at town hall meetings or try to break up meetings around "Restoring the American Dream" it makes me afraid. When they smear all of my friends who belong to unions as thugs it makes me angry and afraid. I don't take out my anger as those on the videos did, but that's what I see motivating it -- just as I think Carla is right that anger and fear motivated the AFP tea partyers in Roseburg.


  • 8:35 p.m.
    Jul 21, '11
    (Show?)

    I too was at the tea event when several of the anti-tea protestors I spoke with, proudly stated they were communist, marxist and socialist. They also told me to suck their organs, yelled f--k you at a MINIMUM of once every 2 seconds and waved the middle finger like they were ordering hot dogs for the whole stadium. MOVEON.ORG is funded by George Soros, a socialist who aspires, publicly on youtube, to destroy the USA. So my hats off to any Tea party member who would fight against a well financed group attempting to destroy not only my way of life, but my kids and grandkids as well. I have attended no less than 6 tea events and everyone was peaceful with the exception of the occasional jerk driving by yelling profanities at grandma and kids. Raal class act they are.


  • 9:33 p.m.
    Jul 21, '11
    (Show?)

    Dan, George Soros, a jew, during WW2, TURNED IN FELLOW JEWS working with the Nazi's for a piece of the take in jewels, cash etc. This he describes as the best years of his life. He was banned from trading in Europe for insider trading and collapsing the bank of England for his own gain. He states and it is on youtube, he wants a new world order with an open society (opensociety.org)which is socialism. He states openly again on youtube, that he hopes to destroy America. Are you impressed with him yet? I could go on but its best if you do a little research and see for yourself. He is Evil, probably the most evil person I know of. but you decide for yourself.


      • 10:59 a.m.
        Jul 22, '11
        (Show?)

        Are you such a dimwit or a simplton, Dan, that you actually believe that any one who's a billionaire and a businessman is a capitalist? LoL

        Here's all the causes George Soros funds........Much better to attack industrialists and innventors like the Koch family that gave of the refining process and cheap energy that has fueled our economic growth for decades.

        Take a look see. Probably some of your favorites.

        http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=589

      •
        5:06 p.m.
        Jul 26, '11
        (Show?)

        Just to connect the dots, Popper was an anti-communist who explicitly numbered communism among the enemies of "the open society" i.e. a society of open debate about ideas.

        The kind of character assassination in which Mr. Probasco engages is of course a common authoritarian tactic to shut down debate.


    • 8:33 p.m.
      Jul 23, '11
      (Show?)

      Soros also has outstanding Felony Interpol warrants from Hungary and France

      •
        11:57 a.m.
        Jul 24, '11
        (Show?)

        Perfect. Instead of finding a reference to back up John & Randy's earlier baseless accusations, you just toss out, again without any reference, more stuff you've picked up off right wing websites. What's next? You gonna bring someone's mama into this?

    •
      10:05 a.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      You're an idiot, and a liar. I filmed no one that day. I put on the event, was the MC, and was pre-occuppied with production, guests, speakers,etc.

      You're a lying fruitloop MARXIST.

        •
          11:12 a.m.
          Jul 22, '11
          (Show?)

          Yeah, you're a liar, and/or you're an idiot. You just said, I filmed. You said, you saw me. You said, I filmed Jamie Earl. I filmed no one that day. You don't obviously even know who I am, and now you're asking who did?

          You told us everyone on this site it was me. So why don't YOU tell us all who you are talking about, as it wasn't me.

          You are a liar. Are you now changing your tune?

          Lying is what Marxists do, or are you now claiming that Democrats like yourself, do the same thing?

          Since you lied over and over again on the above comments claiming you met me, saw me, and engaged me with Jamie Earl, and you did not...which is it?

          are you a careless liar, or do you lie on purpose?

          How about an apology, jerk off?

            •
              11:38 a.m.
              Jul 22, '11
              (Show?)

              Yeah, so far you smeared me comfortably, lying about me comfortably, so it is safe to assume you are an easy liar.

              Lying comfortably and intentionally to smear or discredit along with the use of illegal air horns that were blown off throughout our legally permitted event intentionally to drown out our 1st Amendment right to free speech, is not 1st Amendment messiness....it's illegal, criminal, and in violation of the law.

    •
      11:32 a.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      You're lying again, but I'm glad to have the documention and admission that you were there that day as a democrat, providing more colaborating evidence for Jamie Earl's and the dmeocrat Party's participation.

      •
        5:49 p.m.
        Jul 26, '11
        (Show?)

        So, the Tea Party as an organization or movement is responsible for the all the actions of every member, and may be fairly characterized as a whole by anything any Tea Partyer does? Or you believe in double standards?


    • 8:57 p.m.
      Jul 25, '11
      (Show?)

      This link was just sent to me. It has a lot of photos and commentary by the counter Protesters at the Tea Party Tax Day rally.

      http://3cpo.brinkster.net/tp.htm

  •
    10:49 a.m.
    Jul 22, '11
    (Show?)

    Shane, you're a liar.

    Good to know you know and acknowledge Earl, a Democrat precinct committee person who organized the facebook page to attack good Oregon families by violating their 1st Amendment rights with illegal airhorns, while screaming racist & homosexual slurs, and hatred of America and our soldiers.

    The Douglas County video looks like literally a day in the park compared to vitriole on display in Pioneer Square by the leftist progressive mob.

    Do yourself a favor, and take the lead from Kari, and rennounce that kind of disgusting behavior, instead of making excuses and lying.

    .....and too funny, you're actually going to try to spin that we caused the hatred. Yeah right, lol.... we bated them to organize and plan the day before at PSU to come down with manufactured signs in the pouring rain to scream racist comments at black children, curse and swear, scream down a 8 month pregant former Miss Oregon singing the national Anthemn and a tribute sung to American military heroes and their families.......and we provoked it all with a citizen with a camera.

    Shane, you're a douche, and you're making good people on this blog page look bad, just like Bill's repeated intentional use of the homosexual "teabagger" slur paints you all badly and as hypocrites by association.
    Hey, Shane, we had multiple camera crews there that day to document the hypocrisy evident from the left, to keep our people safe, and for proof in case of potential lawsuits, and I was not one of them.

    You should be very careful what you say here.

    You are an idiot and you and you're friends including Democrat Party personal, happily provided us with documentation.

    Kari, You said you know no one in the videos.....do you know Jamie Earl, Adam Sanchez, or Neil Thomas Loehlein? How about Mr. Smith as he has acknowledged his particpation right here?

    For all of you, here's where this is going. Myself and some of the others, have been speaking on a regular basis with James O'Keefe and a few others you might know, I had James on the radio with me just last Friday, and Portland is gaining the interest of many on the national scene as a target rich environment for successful Conservative activism.

    My fear is, without open dialog between sane people like Kari and myself, (Kari, I'm taking you up on that beer)these confrontations are going to blow up into something dangerous and potentially destructive, redirecting time and energy away from both sides, causing harm to people with noble intentions, that could be much better spent on positive, constructive dialog.

  •
    11:42 a.m.
    Jul 22, '11
    (Show?)

    Shane, you're a liar. Keep it coming.

    Good to know you know and acknowledge Earl, a Democrat precinct committee person who organized the facebook page to attack good Oregon families by violating their 1st Amendment rights with illegal airhorns, while screaming racist & homosexual slurs, and hatred of America and our soldiers.

    The Douglas County video looks like literally a day in the park compared to vitriole on display in Pioneer Square by the leftist progressive mob.

    Do yourself a favor, and take the lead from Kari, and rennounce that kind of disgusting behavior, instead of making excuses and lying.

    .....and too funny, you're actually going to try to spin that we caused the hatred. Yeah right, lol.... we bated them to organize and plan the day before at PSU to come down with manufactured signs in the pouring rain to scream racist comments at black children, curse and swear, scream down a 8 month pregant former Miss Oregon singing the national Anthemn and a tribute sung to American military heroes and their families.......and we provoked it all with a citizen with a camera.

    Shane, you're a douche, and you're making good people on this blog page look bad, just like Bill's repeated intentional use of the homosexual "teabagger" slur paints you all badly and as hypocrites by association. Hey, Shane, we had multiple camera crews there that day to document the hypocrisy evident from the left, to keep our people safe, and for proof in case of potential lawsuits, and I was not one of them.

    You should be very careful what you say here.

    You are an idiot and you and you're friends including Democrat Party personal, happily provided us with documentation.

    Kari, You said you know no one in the videos.....do you know Jamie Earl, Adam Sanchez, or Neil Thomas Loehlein? How about Mr. Smith as he has acknowledged his particpation right here?

    For all of you, here's where this is going. Myself and some of the others, have been speaking on a regular basis with James O'Keefe and a few others you might know, I had James on the radio with me just last Friday, and Portland is gaining the interest of many on the national scene as a target rich environment for successful Conservative activism.

    My fear is, without open dialog between sane people like Kari and myself, (Kari, I'm taking you up on that beer)these confrontations are going to blow up into something dangerous and potentially destructive, redirecting time and energy away from both sides, causing harm to people with noble intentions, that could be much better spent on positive, constructive dialog.

    •
      3:40 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      Having O'Keefe in the mix would be good clean fun for sure. Will he be in full pimp regalia? Or perhaps wearing his little kilt with a sporran big enough to hold all of the equipment necessary to deceptively edit his latest masterpiece?

      What I'm acutally wondering is whether you are physically and mentally capable of posting a comment without using a single slur. Doesn't have to be a long one, say two or three sentences.

      I'm pretty confisent, given your record on this thread so far, that you are flatly incapable of a simple slur free comment.

    •
      9:44 p.m.
      Jul 23, '11
      (Show?)

      John,

      Did your parents really teach you that name-calling is a good way to win friends and influence people?

      Just wondering....

    •
      10:15 p.m.
      Jul 24, '11
      (Show?)

      Are you going to run again?

  •
    2:23 p.m.
    Jul 22, '11
    (Show?)

    Sign the petition to tell the mayor that this is NOT acceptable. People need to be protected from Tea Party thugs. http://signon.org/sign/mayor-cameron-does-the?source=c.url&r_by=177254

  •
    3:35 p.m.
    Jul 22, '11
    (Show?)

    Kari,

    When and where do you want to get a beer?

    .....sooner the better.

    •
      9:47 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      John and Keri, As I said, I'd like to participate. I think a few agreed-upon ground rules could help. Such as a neutral location; no media; an agreed upon (small) number of people on both sides, including rank-and-file folks, not just spokespeople; the goal of listening, with a limited number of non-confrontational questions; and perhaps an agreed-upon time limit of say, an hour or so, which we could extend by mutual agreement. Maybe you each also have a couple of ground rules to suggest, or modifications to my suggestions? If we can have a simple exchange to begin with, maybe we would be lucky enough to also agree on a next meeting or two to extend the process.

    •
      11:10 p.m.
      Jul 22, '11
      (Show?)

      I'll send you a note, John.

  •
    12:27 p.m.
    Jul 23, '11
    (Show?)

    OK by me, Kari, but as you know, one source of trouble can be a mismatch of expectations on either side. Just trying to minimize that initial obstacle.

  •
    2:38 a.m.
    Jul 27, '11
    (Show?)

    Boy when I first heard about this, I thought some angry people calling them selves the tea party had started shouting people down, pushing people around, using air horn so no one could hear anything. But when I actualy viewed the video that MoveOn.org posted (you can view it at http://crooksandliars.com/medialoader/21267/e27f9/wmv/OregonTeaPartiers_7-22-11.wmv), it was down right peaceful! Sure a bunch of people came to to MoveOn.Orgs meeting, that were not invited. Oh and one of them called someone a "marxist", if that is really the worst name they are called doesnt seem that bad to me. Did anyone try to yell over the speaker, no. Did anyone physicly assault anyone, no. All I see is people exercising thier 1st amendment right to peacefuly protest. You want to see some nasty names I got a few clips for you to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgV3PZkJmk4, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7l-pEBYeLI, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSwJykCBzYY, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpnHMG2-vg)

  •
    5:59 a.m.
    Jul 27, '11
    (Show?)

    http://www.facebook.com/kuzforcongress

  •
    9:39 p.m.
    Jul 27, '11
    (Show?)

    Devin, the best part was I spoke to Rich Raynor at AFP Roseburg,as I told Kari I would, and AFP was asked to come down by Moveon.org. They kept it peaceful, as you saw in the video.....there were words, but it was restrained, unlike April 15th in Portland, where there were arrests, violence, and a hate filled progressive mob actually attacking families.

    ....and Carla, the tripe I was referring to was not the video, which is innocuous, but your article which was crap.

    As Carla is a smear merchant, aren't ya, Carla?

    Here's what I'll say to you all ......if you go back and read the posts above you will see that multiple progressives on this site have used homosexual slurs over and over again to attack a good mother, going so far as to call her a dumb racist. The disgusting hypocrisy we see here on BlueOregon is vile and sick, actually going so far as to say to her I pity your kids. I know her. She is better people than almost every one of you on this site that would comment in such a disgusting way.

    Those on this site who are well intentioned are painted as some of the biggest losers imaginable by these pathetic racist and homosexual slurs, making you all look like a pack of bitter losers and smear merchants.

    You should be embarrassed.

    Disagreeing with one another is one thing, but going at a mother and her children with calls of racism and actually saying I pity your children while attacking her with the slur "teabagger" makes you all look like a sick pack of hyenas that care nothing for people, painting you all as partisan hypocrites and group think jerks.

    ......and yes, as I know some of you, Marxist jerks.

    Kari, is this indictive of the people on BlueOregon?

    Since it's more than a few of you .....it appears so.

    I'll also say that what I saw first hand April 15th is EXACTLY what I see here from many at BlueOregon. Funny, it appears a couple of you were there in Pioneer Square, proudly. It doesn't surprise me.......you all should of joined them and kept the family together for one big disgusting anti-american attack on U.S. veterans, an 8 month pregant Miss Oregon, families with their children and Oregonians of all colors from all walks of life.

    Me, I come on here to defend good people.....only calling it like I see it, never looking for a fight, only reacting in defense when you attack us or good people of Oregon.

  •
    10:19 a.m.
    Jul 28, '11
    (Show?)

    Got an email from Robert Smith (from Portland), and he's agreed to let me post it - since I think it's an important point:

    Honestly, I feel like you are both missing the point--(Kari and the Tea Party dude who used "Democrat Party" and yet expects to be treated nicely. Want to be treated nicely, jerk? Then don't be a jerk.)

    At political rallies, whether in Pioneer Square or Wash. DC, you've got a fairly large public event trying to draw attention. Of course there will be hecklers, people who may say nasty things, and the story seems to have become "Look how nasty the other side is....see, I filmed someone being nasty at my political rally."

    That's not the point...trying to prove that the other side says nasty things or has a temper.

    What makes this Roseburg incident different and far creepier is (if the reporting is accurate), that these ladies were not having a political RALLY, they were simply having a meeting to discuss issues, and scary people showed up to intimidate them.

    And (again, if the reporting is accurate), when the group decided to move to a private residence, the Tea Party thugs (because that seems to be the word here) apparently FOLLOWED THEM HOME.

    Bad enough to try to intimidate them in a public setting, but to follow them home brings a whole other level of disturbing to the story.

    Please folks, Kari and the Tea Party dude who is deliberately insulting, the issue is not which side caught the other side saying the F-word at a political rally, and who was faster with the camera phone at the time. Political rallies can get heated, and that's REALLY JUST NOT THE ISSUE.

    The issue is that it was a meeting of some ladies in a park, not a rally (if we can make that distinction), and the even greater issue that once one side decided to end the confrontation by leaving, the Tea Party people FOLLOWED THEM HOME.

    It seems like the issue has been sidetracked into who says more nasty names at political rallies.

    Can anybody remember that these women were probably pretty damn frightened when they were FOLLOWED HOME BY SCARY CREEPS?

    •
      10:53 a.m.
      Aug 10, '11
      (Show?)

      That's a hilarious letter. Your Leftovers have been smearing tea partiers and anyone who opposes statism as racists, idiots, hicks, and now terrorists for several years, and you want to whine about whether someone says Democrat or Democratic Party.

      Tough you silly scum. We are coming for you. Those of you who preach slavery and debt can expect to be shunned socially. Thos of you who enacted slavery and debt through the State can expect to be tried for your crimes against humanity. Your day is over. You've wrecked the country. Get the hell out you criminal parasites.

  •
    10:05 p.m.
    Aug 11, '11
    (Show?)

    Judging from the low turnout of the tea party rally, Americans have nothing to fear from this latest incarnation of the John Birch Society.

    Members of the tea party have been duped by the Koch brothers, Dick Armey and the other oligarchs.

    As soon as they wake up to this fact,they'll be as Ronald Reagan once said, "consigned to the ash heap of history."

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