The Daley Show
Carla Axtman
This should be interesting.
Chicago Mayor Richard Daley says he's fixing to recruit Oregon businesses now that the state made the blunder of waging "class war" by passing measures to tax higher-income Oregonians and corporations.“It will help our economic development immediately," Daley told the Chicago Sun-Times. "You’d better believe it. We’ll be out in Oregon enticing corporations to relocate to Chicago. I’ll be very frank. I make no bones about that. If those states want to do that, so be it."
Chicago, eh?
Hmmm, I wonder how he'll lure Oregon business to the Windy City?
The low tax rate? Not likely. Chicago has the highest sales tax of all major US cities. It's at 10% now and goes down to 9.75% in July of this year.
The State of Illinois also has a Retailers' Occupation Tax, Use Tax, Service Occupation Tax and the Service Use Tax. Here's what Wikipeda says about those taxes:
The Retailers' Occupation Tax is imposed upon persons engaged in the business of selling tangible personal property to purchasers for use or consumption. It is measured by the gross receipts of the retailer. The base rate of 6.25% is broken down as follows: 5% State, 1% City, 0.25% County.Local governments may impose additional tax resulting in a combined rate that ranges from the State minimum of 6.25% to a current high of 11.50% in certain business districts in Cook County. Springfield charges 7.75% total (including state tax). A complementary Use Tax is imposed upon the privilege of using or consuming property purchased anywhere at retail from a retailer. Illinois registered retailers are authorized to collect the Use Tax from their customers and use it to offset their obligations under the Retailers' Occupation Tax Act.
Since the Use Tax rate is equivalent to the corresponding Retailers' Occupation Tax rate, the amount collected by the retailer matches the amount the retailer must submit to the Illinois Department of Revenue. The combination of these two taxes is what is commonly referred to as "sales tax." If the purchaser does not pay the Use Tax directly to a retailer (for instance, on an item purchased from an Internet seller), they must remit it directly to the Illinois Department of Revenue.
The Service Occupation Tax is imposed upon the privilege of engaging in service businesses and is measured by the selling price of tangible personal property transferred as an incident to providing a service. The Service Use Tax is imposed upon the privilege of using or consuming tangible personal property transferred as an incident to the provision of a service. An example would be a printer of business cards. The printer owes Service Occupation Tax on the value of the paper and ink transferred to the customer in the form of printed business cards. The serviceperson may satisfy this tax by paying Use Tax to his supplier of paper and ink or, alternatively, may charge Service Use Tax to the purchaser of the business cards and remit the amount collected as Service Occupation Tax on the serviceperson's tax return. The service itself, however, is not subject to tax.
Qualifying food, drugs, medicines and medical appliances[55] have sales tax of 1% plus local home rule tax depending on the location where purchased. Newspapers and magazines are exempt from sales tax as are legal tender, currency, medallions, bullion or gold or silver coinage issued by the State of Illinois, the government of the United States of America, or the government of any foreign country.
Illinois' system is exceptionally complicated. A brief overview is detailed on the Illinois Department of Revenue website.
"Exceptionally complicated..? Ya think?
Progress Illinois called bullshit on Daley this morning:
The last line of Daley's quote is perhaps the most ridiculous. Let's put aside his suggestion that only the wealthy and successful "work hard." Is Daley not aware that, for almost a century, the federal government has utilized a progressive income tax system, one that taxes the wealthy at a higher rate? And that it's a central plank of the Democratic Party (of which he's theoretically a lifelong member)? And that when a taxing body extracts income at a flat rate, like in Illinois, it's the poor who bear a far heavier burden than the rich?Meanwhile, certain Democratic lawmakers are trying to right that wrong and bring sustainability to the state's budget. Passing such a bill in this economic environment is going to take a lot of political courage. Tax-wary conservative Democrats, including many from Chicago's North Side, are going to have to stick their necks out and approve a tax reform plan to prevent the state from going under. How is their mayor contributing to that effort? By providing pols with political cover -- just a year-and-a-half after his own schools chief voiced support for a state income tax increase!
If Daley is so worried about issues of tax fairness, he should note that the richest Illinoisans (those making over $1 million per year) appear to be shielding as much as half of their earnings from the state's already-low income tax. Closer to home, Chicagoans across the board are now paying higher taxes in order to bankroll public subsidies for his favorite corporations.
Good times.
Maybe Daley could try selling Oregon corporations on their fantastic school system.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for this Power Point presentation.
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Jan 29, '10
Yeah no kidding. Chicago must suck as a place to do business compared to Oregon. They hardly have any business activity there. People all live there for the climate and the livability.
6:39 p.m.
Jan 29, '10
I do note that Mayor Daley has been very supportive of increasing foreign language programs in Chicago's schools, especially Mandarin, Arabic and Russian. He wants to make Chicago "the international American city," - something I'd like to see Portland become.
See my blog post "Arne Duncan, Mayor Daley, and Chicago's Mandarin Programs" here.
Jan 29, '10
Maybe Daley could try selling Oregon corporations on their fantastic school system.
Arne Duncan was the CEO of Chicago Public Schools from June 2001 to December 2009. He is now serving the President and the nation as the Secretary of Education. Are the schools in Chicago really that bad? If so why would Obama pick him?
Jan 29, '10
Yeah and I bet the quality of life there is so much better then Oregon.
Jan 29, '10
You would think that certain, stupid, childhood laugh-ups would be one-offs, but in Illinois politics, stupidity is evergreen. Believe it or not, they've done this before!
In the early '80s, when the daily circulation leader in Detroit was the Dallas Morning News and bumper stickers like, "Would the last person out of Detroit please turn off the lights" were going around, Illinois decided to make a pre-emptive strike. They started running a series of TV ads. that cautioned people about relocating to the South, Texas in particular. You think Paula's bakery was poorly done melodramatism? They had relatives writing letters back home that reminded me a lot of the ones my mother used to get in WWII, from my cousins in Bavaria, asking for care packages. Only not nearly as convincing. They basically took the tone of a parent explaining to the kid why they can't have the puppy. I think they used to have some tag line like, "Texas, it's not what it seems". Guess this time they're saying, "Oregon, it's as bad as it seems".
When Fermilab was competing for the superconducting supercollider bid, was their major arguing point the history at Fermilab? Their stable of scientists? It's international reputation? No. There quick talking point was about fire ants, and how they're attracted to electricity, and, well, the facility is underground...doesn't that sound like a mess? Better give us the SSC.
The local news is fair...fairly unbalanced. I remember the night Sam Giancana was shot, the WGN 5 o'clock news said that there was no evidence, yet, that the shooting was gangland related. A reporter for the Sun Times once dug up the evidence to nail Daily Sr. cold for helping his son pass the bar on his last chance. He waited until they were at a press conference for something totally different. After springing the evidence, Daly responded without missing a beat, "What father wouldn't help his son get ahead in life"? And that was pretty much it. Still trying to forget Harold Washinton's first campaign, when none-of-the-abovers were out in force chanting, "pull two, vote for the Jew; push nine, vote for the shine". (Almost wrote Harold Wilson. That would have had you wondering).
Shitcago. My kind of down.
Jan 29, '10
No go, any smart business won't go for it. Its in the math. Oregon may have raised one business tax very marginally, but the overall package is still very low.
Illinois total tax burden on corporations is significantly higher than Oregon. A. Ernst & Young showed Oregon at the 2nd lowest in the nation before measure 67, and we might be only in the top 10 for low tax burden with 67. "Accounting experts Ernst & Young calculate "total effective tax rate" by taking into account property, receipt and sales and income taxes, cite Oregon's as second-lowest in the U.S." Illinois property tax, excise and gross receipts tax and corporate income taxes are all higher than Oregon. Ref: http://ow.ly/11Zdu
Independently the Tax Foundation shows Oregon ranked 14th for total tax burden, with Illinois at 30th. Ref: http://ow.ly/11ZeD
7:27 p.m.
Jan 29, '10
They did grab Boeing from from Washington - which must prove what happens when you raise the...oh, wait a minute: Washington doesn't have an income tax.
Jan 29, '10
I think you guys are missing the point. It's not so much as who will move out,b ut who will move in.
The current employers are like tenants with Oregon as a landlord calculating out how much he can raise rent until it gets cheaper to move.
WIth all of the wonderful press, in addition to the self-laudation, about how we raised taxes on businesses, this will go worlds further when it comes to attracting new business - unless you can tell me someone large that moved to Oregon.
Moreover, Chicago has access to a lot of the graduates of higher education than Portland does - which makes a difference.
However, we will be a very nice park for the unemployed to enjoy. You can continue patting yourself on the back now.
7:55 p.m.
Jan 29, '10
Steve Marx, Ricky: given that the locals are calling bullshit on Daley, then its kind of tough to legitimately defend it from here.
Jan 29, '10
Riiigght, Carla. "The locals." Ok then. Yeah, since the BlueOregon equivalent in Chicago calls BS, then it is BS for sure. Yup. Nuff said on that. Oregon is totally business friendly. GREAT place to start a biz. Ya ubetcha.
Hey can I get a job?
8:43 p.m.
Jan 29, '10
Riiigght, Carla. "The locals." Ok then. Yeah, since the BlueOregon equivalent in Chicago calls BS, then it is BS for sure. Yup. Nuff said on that. Oregon is totally business friendly. GREAT place to start a biz. Ya ubetcha.
Yeah..cuz the people that actually live there must have NO idea whatsoever. They only live there and know the details and can cite sources.
Silly locals. How dare they know stuff.
Jan 29, '10
As much as I love Chicago and as much as I've had some legendary fun there, I hope Mayor Daley doesn't have to give any of his prospective Oregon clients a tour of his wonderful city on a day featuring a whiteout blizzard with below zero temperatures with 60 mile an hour winds whipping across Lake Michigan or during one that has one hundred degree heat with one hundred percent humidity.
Each town has it's advantages and disadvantages. And while Chicago is a great city I'd rather spend my winters and summers in Oregon any day.
And not too long ago I remember reading that the State Of Illinois was having cataclysmic budget problems of their own. I wonder how they fixed their problem?
Jan 29, '10
And with a much higher cost of living in Chicago, all expenses for rent, salaries, etc. would be much higher in Chicago for a business. Chicago cost of living is 11.5% higher than Portland but employers pay only 2.8% more, for a net reduction in disposable income of $4000/year for someone earning $45,000 (see www.salary.com).
Beware letting the little tax tail trying to wag the business dog!
Jan 29, '10
I love the city of Chicago, but I wouldn't trade their problems for Portland's even for a United States Senate seat.
9:17 p.m.
Jan 29, '10
Moreover, Chicago has access to a lot of the graduates of higher education than Portland does - which makes a difference.
Not per capita they don't. 27% percent of PDX residents have a Bachelor's or higher compared with 19.5% for CHI.
http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demographics/OR/Portland/Education_Level_Profile
http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demographics/IL/Chicago/Education_Level_Profile
Jan 29, '10
Posted by: ScaryTail | Jan 29, 2010 8:40:40 PM
Riiigght, ... Ya ubetcha.
So, is there a faster way to lose credibility than aping Sarah Palin? Getting excited about the convention? Sounds like the trolls are suffering from premature equivocation.
Jan 29, '10
Chicago isn't the danger - other states/cities are. According to the Tax Foundation, Oregon dropped sharply in overall business tax climate ranking between last year and this. While 14th best is not bad, the drop from 8th best last year is startling. For corporate tax alone, Oregon ranks 31st - not so good.
As near as I can tell, this survey was done before 66 & 67.
Ref: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf
Jan 30, '10
The Tax Foundation study was published last September but elsewhere on the site they say they factored in the revenue legislation that was passed and then referred. Their score is presented as ranking "business tax climate", which they admit is not the only criteria for a business to decide location. Oregon went from 10th last year to 14th in 2010. Illinois remained 30th. It's interesting that Oregon was in the top 10, although barely, of this business friendly study and still ranked so high in unemployment in 2009. Makes you wonder what correlation actually exists in slight tax differentiation state-to-state and employment. I'm not sure what it means but I'm sure ideology and faith-based economic theory will provide surety in the BO comments section...
Jan 30, '10
Ricky--the schools in Chicago, at least when I taught there a few years back, are bad. There are some good schools, but for the most part, the education system there is a shambles. In a way I think all you need to do is note that Duncan was a CEO of the schools--has no background in education. Same was true of one of his predecessors, Paul Vallas who was CEO when Clinton was President and touted in his State of the Union the great progress Chicago had made on its test scores. Not that I put value in standardized testing (although to make people fit into a corporate mindset, they are great, and the CEO thing then makes sense), but essentially how those numbers were increased were by kicking out of school those who brought them down. You might argue some of this was legitimate due to excessive absence or crime, but either way, that's how it was done
Jan 30, '10
"Not per capita they don't. 27% percent of PDX residents have a Bachelor's or higher compared with 19.5% for CHI."
What's that number when you take out the baristas with PhDs?
"a whiteout blizzard with below zero"
Versus 5 months of overcast? If you're going to trumpet weather, hope they don't stop by SFO, LAX, PHX or SDO.
Besides I am not sure how taxes did anything to enhance the native beauty of Oregon, but that is not a big draw for employers. Infrastructure, trained workers with experience in growth fields and ultimately the cost of doing business are a much bigger factor.
Jan 30, '10
"There are some good schools, but for the most part, the education system there is a shambles."
Ever ask a public school teacher her why they send their kids to private schools. I do know people who moved to Camas for better schools also if you want to pursue that path.
Jan 30, '10
Ron Morgan, regarding the seeming lack of correlation between taxes and unemployment: I suspect factors such as the type of industry concentrated in a district, the local regulations encouraging or discouraging employment, etc. muddy the waters a lot.
Just a minor correction: Oregon dropped from #8 last year to #14 this year in the Tax Foundation's paper (at least according to Table 1).
Cheers.
Jan 30, '10
Boenig moved their corporate office out of Seattle as a warning to the state, King county and the City. they also want the Machinists Union to take notice. None of them did. Boeing ended up in chicago for avariety of reasons, none of them being primarily taxes. All reasons added up to how hostile the region of Puget Sound was to business.
That hasn't occurred yet in Portland.... oh no wait a minute, Freightliner has been methodically moving operations out of Portland for the past decade. Wake up Portland, Carla's smug, snide remarks aside you have issue and need to decide. In the past decade the nations major truck manufacturer has purchased WesternStar, American LFrance and Ford's heavy truck line (Sterling). They have not placed any of those nameplates on Swan Island. Their corporate HQ has moved to NC. The only reason they maintain a presence in the old plant is due to contract requirements to pay out huge retirements and a federal contract with the military requiring a separate manufacturing facility for their military truck contract.
Someone please name the last major manufacturing company (not publicly owned like the railcars) that moved to Portland or announced a major expansion in Portland.
Jan 30, '10
Carla, Mayor Daley is talking about personal and biz taxes, not sales taxes. He's talking about all the Hippies, Illegal aliens and economically really stupid people here that hate successful people/companies and think ---- Big Brother-Good, rich people/companies-Bad.
Of course the far lefty socialist spin master has to lie again to deny reality. JFK got it, you do not.
This is only the 1st Mayor or Gov. to publicly announce how he can help his state, and take advantage of long term stupid biz policy here.
Actually the leaders in Texas and Arizona are in a much better position economically to grab what companies away from here that they can (and are without telling the Media).
My Dad would say, Give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves, with you guys at least it's an enviromentally correct Hemp rope. :)
Carla, why do you hate success?
11:09 a.m.
Jan 30, '10
Rick Hickey - you really are friggin' insane with your immigrant-bashing. Mayor Daley of Chicago, one of the top cities in the country for attracting immigrants, is luring people away from Portland and Oregon because we're too immigrant-friendly here?
Chicago has always been one of the most welcoming places in America for the foreign-born of all stripes, with the current share of the population now at around 22%.
Give it a rest.
Jan 30, '10
"Someone please name the last major manufacturing company that moved to Portland or announced a major expansion in Portland."
Well let's expand that question to include downtown Chicago, Phoenix, Seattle, New York City, or Miami. The answer would be none because it is a stoopid question.
However if you expand your search to the industrial parks surrounding Portland, you might find:
January 8, 2010 (Bizjournal) German solar module manufacturer Centrosolar Group AG will open its first U.S. manufacturing plant in Gresham ....
January 10, 2010 Pacific Metal Fab LLC of Eugene announced a major expansion for re-equipping and expanding its manufacturing plant to make tanks, plumbing modules and frames for passive solar water heaters.
And you're already aware of the major expansion of SolarWorld Industries America Inc. of Hillsboro of their an existing 100 MW solar PV manufacturing plant to 500 MW?
And it would be an insult to your intelligence to assume that you are such a bottom-feeding wingnut troll not to realize that the Portland Streetcar system has grown to an annual ridership of 4 million passengers and spurred $4 BILLION DOLLARS OF PRIVATE INVESTMENT along its alignment. In fact, the streetcar has become an icon for Portland's progressive and business friendly thinking that 70+ cities have seen it as a model for inner-city, development-oriented transportation. Seizing an opportunity to expand its manufacturing opportunities, Clackamas-based Oregon Iron Works is now supplying Portland and the nation with new streetcars. In this way, Portland has pioneered a new transportation system, a tool for development and a new industry for Oregon.
But hey Kurt, if you want to ignore the basic facts, well I guess there's no fixin' stupid, is there?
11:40 a.m.
Jan 30, '10
As corporations have followed the sucking wind well before Measures 66/67 were fertilized, everyone needs to back off just a tad and recognize what the hell has been going on for decades.
Corporations have been playing states and municipalities against one another for years... which locale will give the best deal to lure the business. Governments have created thousands of loopholes in order to entice the would-be business immigrants. There was a bottom somewhere in this cycle, and states have almost universally found it.
But while states have no more to cough up, corps started doing the next best thing. Even decades ago, they began moving the plants not only out of state, but out of country. I remember a pal losing her job in '90 or '91 when Precision Cast Parts moved a chunk of operations to Mexico.
So what does any of this tell us? That the federal government needs to effect reasonable trade and regulation policies that protect American workers, and that state governments need to effectively and collectively stop buckling to the demands of huge corporations.
Decades ago, the American worker could rely on his/her job and expect to work 25-30 years and retire on a decent income. Decades ago, the corporation was, for the most part, a reliable partner in the community. It's presence spanned scores of years, provided those jobs and stimulated the economy so that smaller businesses could thrive, as well.
It's just not that way any more. Ask Detroit.
Jan 30, '10
" I remember a pal losing her job in '90 or '91 when Precision Cast Parts moved a chunk of operations to Mexico."
And my education into the massive giveaway of the Clinton era was when I flew into Monterey, Mexico in the mid 90s and as I drove out from the airport into the city I saw giant warehouses and factories (all new and shiny) for Xerox, Cat, John Deere, HP, Ford ... about 30-40 in all.
That loud sucking sound was NAFTA exporting every decent manufactoring job south of the border.
Jan 30, '10
Scott, Don't talk about Mexico or nafta realities, they'll call you "friggin insane" but of course, remember the source.
Chicago, welcoming to "immigrants" ?
A. I grew up there, I know they are. I miss ture diversity.
B. NEVER trust anyone who blends in legal immigrants with Illegal aliens. It also really offends the immigrants that went through the steps to be here legally.
C. My many many relatives in Chicago are begging us to leave this place again with passage of M-66 & 67, as they can see that copying California is getting us to same place-Bankrupt, morally and financially.
12:40 p.m.
Jan 30, '10
The best line goes to Dave Hunt, though: "So if someone wants to move their corporation to Chicago, and leave all the beauty and allure of Oregon behind, they’ll still end up paying more in taxes. The one real advantage – you can still vote more than once in Chicago.”
Jan 30, '10
Rick, it's probably best to listen to your family, don't you think?
Jan 30, '10
"the Portland Streetcar system has grown to an annual ridership of 4 million passengers and spurred $4 BILLION DOLLARS OF PRIVATE INVESTMENT along its alignment."
You can give Sam Adams back his KoolAid now, he versifies a lot - Like in order to get elected
As far as the solar plants, why don't you dig a little further to see how many tax breaks they got that they can sell to WalMart for 25% off? Like SolarWorld did or Vestas didn't expand.
With all this investment coming in, who knows in 10 yrs our unemployment rate may drop below double-digits, unless you can tell me you are satisifed with job grwoth here.
Jan 30, '10
Scott, you are such a little dweeb thqt you won't even sign in with your real name. But hey, that's OK. I asked my question and it struck a nerve. The answer is Not ONE Manufacturing concern has started up or announced a major expansion in Portland.
The entities you parrat about were all heavily subsidized by both the Federal and state governments. Even they were smart enough to stay out of Portland proper.
Your talking points about the banal of the Portland railcar system are pure bunk. Most of the alleged $4BB is also federal and state money.
So scott, rest easy in your self induced delusion that Portland is a hip, happenin' place that supports both a solid manufacturing base and quality of living. Because my sad, sad friend; it does not.
Jan 30, '10
"So scott, rest easy in your self induced delusion that Portland is a hip, happenin' place that supports both a solid manufacturing base and quality of living. Because my sad, sad friend; it does not."
I'm sorry your quality of life sucks here. Please feel free to move.
And another thing - I'm not your friend.
Jan 30, '10
Uh, "heavily subsidized"--with what...tax breaks?
But I thought we in Orygon tax business too much, which is why they won't move here, unless we give them a tax brea...
So, if you bring business here with tax breaks, we won't count those businesses because the only reason they're here is because our taxes are lower than those other states that ARE friendly to business, except that their taxes are actually higher...
<shakes head.=""> Silly me. I should know better than to make sense of the wing nut noise machine!
3:00 p.m.
Jan 30, '10
Oh, I see, Rick. So you think that Mayor Daley's point is that Chicago has been much harsher or more effective in preventing undocumented immigrants from settling in Chicago, and that's the basis on which he's trying to lure businesses there. Right.
Just as an example, are you aware that in November Chicago's alderman voted overwhelmingly to reaffirm "their support for Sen. Dick Durbin's DREAM Act by handily passing a resolution (by a 49 -1 vote) that calls on Congress to create a path to citizenship for young adults who've spent most of their lives in the U.S.?"
Jan 30, '10
"spurred $4 BILLION DOLLARS OF PRIVATE INVESTMENT"
You need to give Sam Adams his glass of Kool-Aid back. He has a habit of versifying on regular basis - Like when he got elected.
As far as those other jobs, SOlarWorld got a $12M tax credit they sold to WalMart for $8M, so why is this any different with those other manufacturers.
It makes such perfect sense, lets raise taxes on everyone and then give back to friends and family as tax credits.
Jan 30, '10
That's right, Steve. Welcome to civilization. (As opposed to the anarchy you might prefer?)
We tax everyone, so everyone can benefit from things that are in everyone's interest, like police, fire, schools, clean(er) water, clean(er) air, food that won't kill you (most of the time, unless you eat too much), etc.
Those who can afford more, we tax a little more . If you want to go back to before progressive taxation, you're pretty much voting for the "poor, nasty, brutish and short" version of things. (And would need a horse and buggy to get around.)
And yes, we tax everyone by income more or less the same, and then reduce taxes selectively when we, the people, through our highly imperfect democratic process, see there's something in the public interest that maybe needs a little push to get going. Like clean energy. Because if we wait for the private sector, clean energy won't "pencil out" over dirty energy until a heck of a lot of us are dead and the planet f'ed up beyond repair. Since keeping us from dying doesn't immediately put $$$ onto the books of private, for-profit-and-to-heck-with-anything-else companies, we need a way to give them a little encouragement to do what we all need them to do.
And since we are NOT, in fact, living with ANY kind of "socialism" (where we the people could tell private companies directly what their function should be, over and above feeding their bottom line), we use the one tool that we the people have direct control over--taxes. So we make it cheaper to buy a fuel-efficient, low pollution vehicle than a huge, gas-guzzling monstrosity, so that we'll be less depended on foreign fossil fuels and not heat up our climate so much.
Oh, wait, we DON'T do that, do we. We do exactly the OPPOSITE (thanks to George Bush and his GOP oil buddies who's PRIVATE interest is served by us guzzling as much Texas Tea--from Saudi Arabia, mind you--as possible).
Might want to re-think that one, eh?
Seems that's what comes when the people who are supposed to work for WE, the people, instead work for for the for-profit-and-to-heck-with-anything-else crowd.
Remind me why we should give them a blank check, again?
4:45 p.m.
Jan 30, '10
Rick Hickey wrote: "Carla, Mayor Daley is talking about personal and biz taxes, not sales taxes."
Yes, that's exactly what Mayor Daley was saying. But that's because he doesn't want to talk about sales taxes. You do understand that businesses pay sales taxes, too, right?
It really is a very business-friendly thing that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax. Not only are customers able to make more purchases when there's no sales tax, but businesses don't have to pay sales taxes themselves when they're buying supplies.
Jan 30, '10
You know Scott, on that one thing we can agree. you aren't my friend because you woudln't be caught dead with someone who didn't share your political and social viewpoint. But then that is the problem with many in Portland.
Without a true diversity of thought amongst friends you all constatntly blow smoke up each others backsides content in the faux knowledge that Portland is THE place to be. Too bad, in another time and place we might have been friends who would have great differences and debates dispite our differences.
Jan 30, '10
Yes. In fact, a sales tax is the worst kind of tax that's not based on profits. Every time you buy something in your effort to make money and employ people, you pay--6, 9, 10%. You might not make a profit that year--you could lose your shirt, but you still pay the tax.
Jan 30, '10
Yeah, I want to live someplace where you have to put orange dye into the river to make it green. Illinois has interstate "safety checks". Most the immigrants judge it by that old rule, "it's not as bad as the old country, so it's pretty good". Hey, no wonder they're so solidly Democratic! What naturals!!!
Jan 30, '10
"You do understand that businesses pay sales taxes, too, right?"
Uh, no. They pass them thru to customers in every state I've ever been.
Jan 30, '10
Business climate isn't the only thing to consider....murder rate in Chicago is 18/100k; in Portland, 4.7/100k. Robbery? 588.6 per 100,000 in Chicago, 204.7 in Portland. Aggravated assault? 602/100k in Chicago, 368 in Portland. The businessperson's question should be not "Where is the better business climate" so much as "Where am I less likely to have my throat slit as I open my store in the morning?".
Jan 30, '10
"we use the one tool that we the people have direct control over--taxes."
No, we have another tool besides giving the govt taxes and then having them skim off the top and allow a few people to decide what is good for all of us.
We can individually exercise our freedom and decide not to buy a large SUV and pay extra for gas. Even more direct control - unless you don't trust us and would rather trust a govt agency.
9:02 p.m.
Jan 30, '10
btw, just because you never see political leaders (elected and otherwise) comment in BlueOregon, don' think they & their staff don't read it. they do. i'm always amazed but what i hear from such people, the people who know me from this site. we have some tremendous posters here, people with views and information worth reading. they get read by opinion-makers & decision-makers. that's not to say BO is shaping the agenda, but anyone who thinks it's a fringe website largely ignored by people who "matter", you do not know what you are talking about.
so if the Chicago equivalent of BO has called bullshit, that's a bullshit which Illinois leaders will pay attention to.
Jan 30, '10
Kari Chisholm commented: It really is a very business-friendly thing that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax. Not only are customers able to make more purchases when there's no sales tax, but businesses don't have to pay sales taxes themselves when they're buying supplies.
Actually, given that most businesses would just include the additional cost of the sales taxes they pay for their supplies in determining what prices they need to or will charge for their products/services, it ultimately is really a very consumer-friendly thing that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax. And given that a sales tax is inherently regressive, it's especially a break for those in the lower income brackets that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax.
9:53 p.m.
Jan 30, '10
Uh, no. They pass them thru to customers in every state I've ever been.
By that logic, there's no such thing as a business tax. So, what's all the whining about? ;)
Jan 31, '10
Kari Chisholm commented: By that logic, there's no such thing as a business tax. So, what's all the whining about? ;)
Sigh!... I guess Zarathustra had it right when he commented: Ignorance is bliss, and we all couldn't be happier!
9:39 a.m.
Jan 31, '10
No, we have another tool besides giving the govt taxes and then having them skim off the top and allow a few people to decide what is good for all of us.
Ah Steve. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a republic. See the way it works is The People elect Representatives who represent them in Salem. If The People don't like the way they are represented, they elect someone else.
11:08 a.m.
Jan 31, '10
Alcatross:
"...And given that a sales tax is inherently regressive, it's especially a break for those in the lower income brackets that Oregon doesn't have a sales tax.
I'm not following your logic, here, Alca. Are you saying that since folks in the lower brackets buy less, then they pay less? While this is technically true, it is hardly advantage: poor folks on this one. A sales tax would be significantly more of a burden to those in lower earning brackets. It's a one size fits all model, and there already plenty of those models in play.
Thinking of the sales tax literally in terms of pennies tends to minimize it's impact. Think of larger items... I again will revitalize my account of my truck purchase in 1985 (KS) - 10k for the truck; $450 for the sales tax (and 4 1/2% is low by today's sales tax standards) and $600 plus for vehicle property tax (that's another rant).
Sales taxes on large purchases such as vehicles and major household appliances could limit the purchasing power of the individual or family, which in turn, directly impacts businesses.
And instituting a sales tax on the business end of it is not simply a matter of bumping up prices to accommodate that extra percentage. There would, by necessity, be a truckload of administrative work to conduct, reports to file, and an expanded accounting system.
As a small business owner who provides a service, I would prefer that taxation be applied at the tail end (aka M. 67) rather than the front end of the transaction in the form of a sales tax.
Jan 31, '10
"You do understand that businesses pay sales taxes, too, right?"
Uh, no. They pass them thru to customers in every state I've ever been.
Last I checked, most businesses buy things, which means that they are also customers, which means they pay sales taxes.
Oh, sure, much of what they buy is wholesale, but businesses also buy things at retail, some may buy substantially at retail.
Carla, Mayor Daley is talking about personal and biz taxes, not sales taxes.
A sales tax isn't a personal tax? What is it, then?
Jan 31, '10
This debate is really quite funny. Two states that Democrats have run into the ground are debating who has the business advantage over the other - when the only thing that matters is that neither has the advantage over states with lower marginal tax rates.
Those who fail to learn from history (Oregon legislators and voters) are doomed to repeat it.
"Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich" WSJ 5/18/2009
Excerpt: "Updating some research from Richard Vedder of Ohio University, we found that from 1998 to 2007, more than 1,100 people every day including Sundays and holidays moved from the nine highest income-tax states such as California, New Jersey, New York and Ohio and relocated mostly to the nine tax-haven states with no income tax, including Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Texas. We also found that over these same years the no-income tax states created 89% more jobs and had 32% faster personal income growth than their high-tax counterparts.
Did the greater prosperity in low-tax states happen by chance? Is it coincidence that the two highest tax-rate states in the nation, California and New York, have the biggest fiscal holes to repair? No. Dozens of academic studies -- old and new -- have found clear and irrefutable statistical evidence that high state and local taxes repel jobs and businesses.
More recently, Barry W. Poulson of the University of Colorado last year examined many factors that explain why some states grew richer than others from 1964 to 2004 and found "a significant negative impact of higher marginal tax rates on state economic growth." In other words, soaking the rich doesn't work. To the contrary, middle-class workers end up taking the hit.
One last point: States aren't simply competing with each other. As Texas Gov. Rick Perry recently told us, "Our state is competing with Germany, France, Japan and China for business. We'd better have a pro-growth tax system or those American jobs will be out-sourced." Gov. Perry and Texas have the jobs and prosperity model exactly right. Texas created more new jobs in 2008 than all other 49 states combined. And Texas is the only state other than Georgia and North Dakota that is cutting taxes this year."
Jan 31, '10
"If The People don't like the way they are represented, they elect someone else."
Glad to hear you liked Bus for both terms then and agreed `00% to yield a lot of your decisions to him.
THis is my point, if alternative energy is so comepelling why do we ned to place so many inducements to make it happen? Treat it like any other business and if people believe they are paying too much for gas then they'll buy economy cars.
Jan 31, '10
KC Hanson commented: ...it is hardly advantage: poor folks on this one. A sales tax would be significantly more of a burden to those in lower earning brackets.
eh... That's what I said: a sales tax is inherently regressive as the tax is not based on the person's ability to pay - thus more of a burden on people in lower income brackets. And so all other things being equal, not having a sales tax IS a relative advantage to those in the lower income brackets in Oregon than if they were living in a state WITH a sales tax.
As a small business owner who provides a service, I would prefer that taxation be applied at the tail end (aka M. 67) rather than the front end of the transaction in the form of a sales tax.
I've no doubt you do - but if the state had it's way, it would prefer to institute a sales tax because it's generally a more predictable/reliable source of income versus the current over-reliance on an income tax that can result in wider swings in revenue. Even now, it's not a slam-dunk the passage of M66/67 is going to generate the hoped for $733M.
Jan 31, '10
I agree with you, Steve, that alternative energy doesn't need tax credits.
In general, those who support tax credits have an obligation to show how they would be paid for.
As for "Glad to hear you liked Bus", I first encountered the Oregon Bus Project in 2002 and admire them very much.
Oh? Was that a typo? Did you mean BUSH? The guy chosen by the Supreme Court in 2000? The one who never carried Oregon?
Since this post is about Oregon tax policy and whether businesses will move to those "lovely" Chicago winters just because Mayor Daley offers them a sweeter deal than they have in Oregon, I was saying if you don't like your Oregon legislators go campaign for someone else.
Feb 1, '10
Given Daley's success in landing the Olympics for Chicago. . . .
12:32 p.m.
Feb 1, '10
FYI, Solaicx and Siltronic are in Portland proper. But if Oregon is so "hostile" to business, what do you call giving solar companies tax incentives?
So targeted tax incentives to companies in growth sectors don't count when tabulating how "hostile" Oregon is to businesses right?
Feb 1, '10
Posted by: John's Career Options | Feb 1, 2010 3:57:59 AM
Yes..it is quite good to set up a business in Chicago as compared to Oregon as life style is much better
First, only the older posts, then the current ones, now they comment on the posts at least as well as the trolls. How long can it be until we have a link spammer contributing an article? Oh, I dearly wish I could turn back the clock and track one of those porn or pirated dvd spammers, track them down and plant a great, pro measure 66/67 article on them. At this point, I actually think it would have gotten published.
Now, show the depths of this blog's class, and criticize me for being off-topic, while the link spammers remain in the thread unmolested!
Feb 1, '10
lestatdelc, Siltronic has been around since 1979 and their last enhancement to the Portland facility was in 1996. I would hardly characterize them as a growing or new Portland manufacturer. OTOH, your citation of Solaicx could be interesting. Again, at under 200 employees they qualify at best as a small to medium sized manufacturer and have few, if any Oregon incentives, mostly federal. I wish them the best.
You rose to my challenge and named one realitively new manufacturer for the Portland area. Thank you.
Feb 1, '10
"Without a true diversity of thought amongst friends you all constatntly blow smoke up each others backsides content in the faux knowledge that Portland is THE place to be."
Until you burn through 6 passports and have done business and/or pleasure in more countries than I care to remember, then, and only then, will you vaguely understand why Oregon is my home.
And the tax burden is reason #17.
Feb 1, '10
Yes well Scott, I also have lived in and done business in several different countries and lived all over the U.S.
I also CHOSe Oregon as my home. Not necessarily the Portland area, but Portland.
<h2>See, perhaps we do have something in common....</h2>