What is this world coming to. This is all you read about since Monica Lewinsky.

spam links deleted--editor

How would you compare this to Sam Adams' transgressions?

If the allegations are true I cnodemn Minnis and his activity. but then I also condemned similar actions by Clinton. If any self-righteous progressive lept to the defense of CLinton they can put away their faux outrage right now.

A politician abusing their position in order to sexually exploit a volunteer or subordinate should recieve the same aprobation regardless political party.

Steve commented: 'How would you compare this to Sam Adams' transgressions?'

Well, while it strains credulity that nothing sexual happened until after Breedlove turned 18, that's the story so any relationship between the two can be termed to meet the minimum standards for being called legally consensual - and no complaint was ever filed against Adams anyway (at least by Breedlove)

Another big difference is Sam is an ELECTED versus APPOINTED official - so he had the luxury of playing his cards that the story would blow over. If Sam had been in some appointed position he would have been asked to resign or booted out the day the story broke - similar to the way Minnis was handled here. One of the perks of public office, I guess...

I fail to see how this falls outside the jurisdiction of DOJ to prosecute on behalf of the victim. Minnis was engaged in improper contact with a subordinate employee. Just because that improper, unwanted contact occurred outside the state of Oregon does not mean that the employment relationship changed once they were over the border- Minnis was still in a position of power, and the woman was still a subordinate employee. In fact, the documents state they were on work-related training travel at the time of the contact. The state is still on the hook for actions Minnis took with this employee, at minimum in civil court if the AG cannot prosecute criminally, especially if she brought attention to Minnis' behavior towards her to anyone else in state management and they failed to act to investigate or stop Minnis prior to these training trips.

And Carla, you obviously know NOTHING about Sexual Harassment law. But then I didn't expect you to make any other excuse other than the one you did in support of St. William Jefferson Clinton.

"If Sam had been in some appointed position he would have been asked to resign"

I honestly don't think so. He is not a Republican, so he can get away with a lower standard of behavior like sexually harrasing a minor (that a less polite way of saying he was grooming Breedlove) in Oregon.

"Kurt: If the allegations the woman is making are true--this is nonconsensual. This would be ILLEGAL--way out of the realm of anything having to do with Clinton".

Carla, I will not defend Minnis or attack Clinton, but do you know something we don't? What part of "The woman in question says Minnis plied with her booze and on at least two occasions he put her to bed--and she woke up without clothes on" is an "illegal"?

is illegal?.......sorry

Criminal jurisdiction in Oregon courts is limited to conduct occurring in the State of Oregon (with limited exceptions not applicable here). If it happened, it happened in CA and is certainly something they should look into criminally.

"Plied her with booze"? Hmmm...much as I disapprove of some sleazy troll looking to get a chick loaded (clearly a douche who has no game), I have to wonder if the female in question was somehow force-fed alcohol against her will. If that's the case, Mr. Minnis should be incarcerated. If not, the alleged victim of his advances needs to be held accountable for her decisions.

In a workplace case where I was working as a temp, a woman employee said of the guy who had been sent home on leave "anyone is innocent until proven guilty, but if he is guilty, I want to..." and then suggested something violent.

"Clinton did it" is no excuse for a self-righteous former policeman if indeed he did what is alleged.

This is, after all, the legislator who suggested balancing the budget by selling of the Gov. mansion--bought by private donations.

That and many other public statements caused me to distrust John Minni's judgement a long time ago.

borING!

I think mamabigdog has a point.

If I, as a state employee, am assaulted by my boss on out of state business, I would think the state still has some responsibility for that boss' actions. Maybe it's not a simple x assault case anymore -- but the boss, as a representative of the state, still must be held accountable. What is the state doing?

What happened to the official misconduct charge? Can any lawyerly types explain that?

Jesus, Clinton is like some atavistic vampire memory for these right wing folks!

I never voted for Clinton, thought he was way too "triangulated" (as are the Democrats in the Senate, on this night that they are apparently betraying us yet again by giving up the last fig leafs of respectability on the health care bill) . . . but anyone who conflates "he got me drunk and when I woke up I was naked" with Clinton's entirely consensual (if embarrassingly juvenile) conduct with Monica Lewinsky is simply moronic.

Get a grip.

And the Minnis families' misdeeds go way beyond the keystone cops sexual misconduct crap anyway. As usual.

John Minnis's story reveals that inappropriate behaviour affects not only the character of a person but also his career. We can learn a lesson from it.

"C-O-N-S-E-N-T-U-A-L"

Uh, you mean C-O-N-S-E-N-S-U-A-L?

If true this falls into the Oregon category of worse than Adams better than Goldschmidt.

Scale of scandal: WORST: Goldschmidt- pedophile NEXT: Minnis- see above NEXT: Adams- grooming behavior with an underage teenager

Where would Wu's attempted date rape in college fit in?

Carla, yes, I am an employment expert regarding sexual harassment law. I've conducted a great many investigations. What Minnis is accused of is actually sexual assault. Clinton was a serial quid pro quo sexual harasser. And I was not referring to Lewinsky, but rather Paula Jones. While she did not press charges, her version of their encounter most closely parallels the Minnis case so far.

Interesting insight into Republican thinking. If these comments are a representative gauge of right-of-center thought,, it seems that a woman's desire, consent or lack thereof just isn't part of the equation. The only thing that matters is whether there was SEX.

Either that, or it just never occurred to the commenters to think about whether there was consent.

What part of "The woman in question says Minnis plied with her booze and on at least two occasions he put her to bed--and she woke up without clothes on" is "illegal"?

There's incomplete information here, but presumably if you're looking out for the interests of someone who has had too much to drink you don't strip them before you put them to bed. If she was, in fact, drunk, in most states it is considered that she is not capable of consenting, so if there were any sexual activity that would be some form of sexual abuse or sexual assault.

"Plied her with booze"? Hmmm...much as I disapprove of some sleazy troll looking to get a chick loaded (clearly a douche who has no game), I have to wonder if the female in question was somehow force-fed alcohol against her will. If that's the case, Mr. Minnis should be incarcerated. If not, the alleged victim of his advances needs to be held accountable for her decisions.

See above. If she was drunk, the law says that she is not capable of consenting to sex, so it is John Minnis who will be held accountable for his actions, if there was indeed sexual activity that took place when she was drunk.

"Paula Jones. While she did not press charges, her version of their encounter most closely parallels the Minnis case so far."

So, when a right winger is accused of something short of having "traditional family values", is there a figure like Richard Mellon Scaife involved somehow?

http://www.waasinfo.com/clients/waas/geo/salon/lawsuit.html

What I don't understand is why so many start doing comparisons on which public official's misdeeds or missteps were worse or better than the others. How about comparing someone's actions to ethical standards or rules in their workplace or the law?

Yes, Bill Clinton and Sam Adams and Neil Goldschmidt have all had varying degrees of public scrutiny/scorn due to their (alleged or proved)sexual activities. What does that have to do with John Minnis? Even if he ever met any of the above I doubt they gave him the idea to do what he's accused of doing. Judge the man on his own actions---that alone will be enough to condemn him.

This "neener-neener xxx person did something just as bad" nonsense is tiring, no matter from which side of the political line it comes.

If these comments are a representative gauge of right-of-center thought,, it seems that a woman's desire, consent or lack thereof just isn't part of the equation.

Are you talking politically, or legally? It certainly matters in a court of law. Point taken politically, when you see dittoheads lump this in with affairs with consenting, legal, non-employees.

See above. If she was drunk, the law says that she is not capable of consenting to sex, so it is John Minnis who will be held accountable for his actions, if there was indeed sexual activity that took place when she was drunk.

If sex happened, that would be actionable, to a lesser extent, even if they were married.

Undressing her in such a state would qualify as sexual assault. Does seem like the brother, very passive-aggressive. Wonder if there's a smoking scumbag? (Missed yer chance, Carla!)

Posted by: Todd Hebert | Dec 8, 2009 5:30:33 PM

What is this world coming to. This is all you read about since Monica Lewinsky.

spam links deleted--editor

The spam link is also on the pseudonym. You have to delete the whole thing. That's all the link spammers used to do, until allowing them old topics led to their adding links, and now, posting on current threads.

And for the record, Donna Rice was the first in the contemporary "sink the liberal candidate with a sex scandal" series. Hard to forget if you were working for the Hart campaign. Probably why I've never cared to be a delegate again. And that, for the record, was nothing like what Minnis is accused of. Hart didn't break any laws. If he had of, he might have got the nomination. Gary kept his monkey business on the boat.

From the Oregonian story:

"Minnis told investigators his conduct was always "absolutely totally" professional during business hours. But he also confessed to some touching in a hot tub and in hotel rooms. "

Do you mean Speaker Karen's husband got in a hot tub with an employee?

Always knew John Minnis had no sense!

I'm no expert on sexual harrassment either, but I think Clinton's actions with Lewinsky constitute sexual harrassment, even if she never filed suit. My understanding is that any sexual relationship in the workplace that involves individuals of vastly different power and rank (clearly applies here) can qualify as sexual harrassment if the victim chooses to file suit. And sexual harrassment is illegal.

I'm also perplexed by the idea that the AG can't investigate a relationship between Oregon public employees, even if the activity occurred out of state. The state is absolutely liable for Minnis's actions as a manager, as we'll find out in a year or so when the state settles with the victim. I'm guessing $500,000.

Totally professional AND touching in a hot tub?

Ummmm. I want to be in the room when he explains that concept to Karen.

Here are the statutes on jurisdiction and official misconduct. Judge for yourself, but I don't see anything that gives Oregon criminal jurisdiction over a single instance of misconduct outside of the state. Of course it's heinous conduct (if proven) and should be investigated by the appropriate authorities.

  131.215 Jurisdiction. Except as otherwise provided in ORS 131.205 to 131.235, a person is subject to prosecution under the laws of this state for an offense that the person commits by the conduct of the person or the conduct of another for which the person is criminally liable if:
  (1) Either the conduct that is an element of the offense or the result that is an element occurs within this state; or
  (2) Conduct occurring outside this state is sufficient under the law of this state to constitute an attempt to commit an offense within this state; or
  (3) Conduct occurring outside this state is sufficient under the law of this state to constitute a conspiracy to commit an offense within this state and an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy occurs within this state; or
  (4) Conduct occurring within this state establishes complicity in the commission of, or an attempt, solicitation or conspiracy to commit an offense in another jurisdiction which also is an offense under the law of this state; or
  (5) The offense consists of the omission to perform a legal duty imposed by the law of this state with respect to domicile, residence or a relationship to a person, thing or transaction in this state; or
  (6) The offense violates a statute of this state that expressly prohibits conduct outside this state affecting a legislatively protected interest of or within this state and the actor has reason to know that the conduct of the actor is likely to affect that interest. [1973 c.836 §10]

162.415 Official misconduct in the first degree. (1) A public servant commits the crime of official misconduct in the first degree if with intent to obtain a benefit or to harm another: (a) The public servant knowingly fails to perform a duty imposed upon the public servant by law or one clearly inherent in the nature of office; or (b) The public servant knowingly performs an act constituting an unauthorized exercise in official duties. (2) Official misconduct in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §215]

If someone "plied you with booze" and you woke up naked in bed with them, why on earth would you go out drinking with them again?

Let's see, maybe he's your boss, has given you a bunch of raises, and could fire you.

Posted by: Jamais Vu | Dec 9, 2009 2:47:35 PM

If someone "plied you with booze" and you woke up naked in bed with them, why on earth would you go out drinking with them again?

If only a majority of women did what was rational vis a vis their dates and their behavior...well, I don't think we'd have political parties. Both phenomena only exist because people, by and large, aren't rational. Minnis my have violated some employee policies, but whether he did anything illegal remains to be seen--maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The story has some definite holes at this point though.

Could you render a version for us, given the very basics, that doesn't violate statute? Just the facts everyone agrees on.

I'm no expert on sexual harrassment either, but I think Clinton's actions with Lewinsky constitute sexual harrassment, even if she never filed suit. My understanding is that any sexual relationship in the workplace that involves individuals of vastly different power and rank (clearly applies here) can qualify as sexual harrassment if the victim chooses to file suit.

Those two sentences stand in direct contradiction. You admit that, under those circumstances, no complaint=no crime, but the premise is "even if she never filed suit". It's logic like that that had the prosecutor in the Kennedy Smith trial going for rape, without the evidence, when a smart DA would have gone for a lesser charge, and got it on his record, so that the behavior would be admissible when/if another incident happened.

@mlw- It appears the San Diego law enforcement folks will be following up on the criminal charges, but as I said before, that doesn't take the state or Minnis off the hook for a civil case here in Oregon. The accuser will need a good attorney to sue both the state for failing to take action against Minnis sooner (if she did indeed bring his behavior to light prior to the SD trip- negligent retention), and to take Minnis to court as an individual.

Pass the popcorn, please!

Pete, there is a political golden rule about treating people the way one would want to be treated, and the corollary "Be careful whose toes you step on as you advance politically because they will remember you on your way down".

That is why Packwood fell so far so fast. It is asking a lot, even in this season of caring for all, to give sympathy to the Minnis family given the way they treated others.

LT is likely Liz Toy, resident of Salem and Capitol gadfly who had no raison d'etre until she found BO [phew].

There is no excuse for John Minnis' behavior, and aside from professional consequences...I'll bet it will be a pretty chilly Christmas at home, too. If those are representative of the decisions and choices he made in that position, we are better as a state without him.

That said, after reading the reports, me thinks the lady doth protest too much. I know it's not PC (Progressively Correct) to imply that the woman in question had any responsibility whatsoever, especially when a conservative republican is involved in something tawdry. People here at Blue Oregon saying that she couldn't be held responsible for her actions if she were drunk probably gives hope to thousands of convicted drunk drivers looking for an avenue of appeal. I just don't think anyone has clean hands in this mess, and nothing should be taken at face value.

Posted by: Freezing in Salem | Dec 10, 2009 12:14:47 AM

LT is likely Liz Toy, resident of Salem and Capitol gadfly who had no raison d'etre until she found BO [phew].

Do your job editor! Delete the first post, which is nothing but a chance to put link spam on the name, and this actionable piece of irresponsibility.

This is your last warning. It's high time someone took this blog to court and cut through the "we're management and today we made up another policy" attitude. There are established best practices. If you want to be a bratty, "my blog, my blog, nya, nya, nya" clique, you'll be welcomed to the real world the hard way.

Posted by: Dan | Dec 10, 2009 8:04:19 AM

There is no excuse for John Minnis' behavior, and aside from professional consequences...I'll bet it will be a pretty chilly Christmas at home, too. If those are representative of the decisions and choices he made in that position, we are better as a state without him.

Kind of reminds one of the grocery tabloids, always trumpeting the comforting message that the rich and famous face exactly the same day on day issues that you do.

In one way this IS like Monica L. That involved 2 lawyers and the daughter of a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon. Entity count: 3. People count: 0. Same here. They're lawyers, not people. Not valid to project.

The rattlesnake warren is a pretty cozy place in the dead of winter!

Dan,

Drunk drivers are committing a crime.

A drunk woman sexually abused/assaulted is a victim of a crime.

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your comparison makes no sense.

Ms. Mel...I don't disagree with your distinction. But to say that the woman (and her behavior) had absolutely no responsibility in this matter is a bit naive.

Now, before anyone gets all twitchy about what I just said, and starts assuming I think rape victims are "just asking for it"...let's take a step back. That's not what happened here, or else we would be seeing an indictment against Minnis for sexual assault. If there is enough evidence and a witness credible enough for a conviction, you will see my posted apology.

I've been around the block a time or two, and people in this situation are never as black and white as "cunning predator and innocent, unspoiled victim," especially when we are talking about a sexual relationship and the workplace. People suck, people lie, and people mischaracterize...especially when their reputations and emotions are on the line. Minnis did. I see no reason to expect that the woman in this situation didn't either. I don't think either one of them deserves a defense.

People suck, people lie, and people mischaracterize...

I don't!

"What does that have to do with John Minnis?"

Well, I guess expecting some sort of consistency in how we treat offenders like Adams (off scot-free, still making $100K/yr), Goldschmidt (off scot-free and lvingin in France) and Minnis (Ms Axtman would love to do anything to get him fired - as he should be if this is true) would be asking too much.

I think that is the bigger story, not who we prosecute, but who we don't. Second, where is Teddy finding all of these $100K/yr jobs to put his buddies in and why?

I think this is the karma the Minnis' reap for what they've done to Oregon and how they've treated gay people.

It's amazing that any (typically self-defeating) progressive compares this to consensual actions by Adams and Clinton, especially since those politicians didn't spend their careers promoting right-wing sexual morality; with the Menaces it is a hypocrisy issue.

I feel terrible for the woman he did this too, but John and Karen both deserve all the misery they are going through right now. I hope the rest of their lives are miserable, as that is what vicious homophobes and uncaring right-wingers like them deserve.

Like it is has a point.

Suppose a famous environmentalist suddenly went to work for a corporate polluter. Suppose someone gave a great speech on one side of an issue and then was discovered to later have voted on the other side.

It has been interesting to watch over the years how many "traditional family values" types have gotten themselves into scandals like this.

"But Clinton and Adams..." sounds a lot like "But the Democrats...".

Those who love to talk about the "free marketplace" get angry when their customers (voters) decide they don't like the product anymore and choose something different.

Posted by: Like it is | Dec 11, 2009 8:14:31 AM

I think this is the karma the Minnis' reap for what they've done to Oregon and how they've treated gay people.

And that's telling it like it is. (no sarcasm intended)

Posted by: Carla Axtman | Dec 10, 2009 1:12:37 PM

Some consistency in how we view and discuss these people would be refreshing and "nice", too.

How 'bout starting with the posters, just to show you can do it. You would have deleted the following from most threads. You have something against LT?

Posted by: Freezing in Salem | Dec 10, 2009 12:14:47 AM

LT is likely Liz Toy, resident of Salem and Capitol gadfly who had no raison d'etre until she found BO [phew].

FWIW, her gadfliery is well appreciated by many here. I assume your attack is personal. I work with a woman named Liz Thorne that was going to use "LT" at first (and ET just sucks). It's common. One would only post that as a personal "out". If that's fair game, then fine. There have been a number of bratty rants from Carla that could have stood some personal details being added. Why was my bio of Breedlove deleted a year ago (nearly)? He was at least in the public spotlight. Ah, but silly, me. Being Dem faithful is largely about tolerating inconsistency, isn't it? Oh, that's what you asked for. Get it, yet?

"Freezing", you may be freezin' 'em off, but if I ever find out who you are, I promise they'll be handed to you.

Freezing, exactly what have you done in Oregon politics?

I've been a campaign volunteer for roughly 3 decades off and on, a pct. person, member of county, cong. dist. and state Dem. central comm., delegate to the 1984 Democratic Convention. I remember when Joe Smith and Jim Klonoski were state Dem. chairs. Do you?

I am also the granddaughter of a politician, great aunt of 3 adorable young kids, and have a very full life of which blogging is only a small part.

If you know so much, Freezing, why not use at least your initials if not your real name?

Could it be you are not the great stuff you claim to be?

Pete, no one is required to believe anything they read online.

I thank Zarathustra for the comments.

I learned a couple things about BO last year. One is not everyone who votes reads BO, another is how many people read it but don't comment. Kari has made comments about that as recall, and one candidate commented to me in an email the number of voters he talked to who had not read anything about the campaign on BO because they don't read blogs.

An old friend (activist going back to when Wayne Morse was still alive, 1980 Dem. National Convention delegate) called me up (maybe April 2008) to thank me for what I said on BO, and to say I should not let the attacks get me down.

I wrote that on BO and someone attacked me "How do we know this friend exists? If he really existed, he would comment here himself!". Only self-centered bloggers would say that a person does not exist unless they blog.

There is BO, and there is the real world. Sometimes BO has breaking news, sometimes intelligent conversation.

But sometimes it is Portland-centric and full of attacks--worthwhile as one is spending time online in spare minutes, waiting for a phone call or whatever, but taht's all. Real life is lived offline. It is going to work. It is the family reunion for a landmark birthday. It is visiting with relatives and friends.

Someone who used to post here in previous years and I had an email conversation about people who read BO but don't comment.

The world does not revolve around consultants and others from Portland.

Elections are decided by people of all political persuasions (including independents). There are people who are involved in politics for years and then burn out and move on to something else.

A friend did just that--activist from teen years to middle age, worked as a campaign manager and staffer as well as decades of volunteer work. Then hit a "last straw " moment and quit politics cold turkey.

Her parting shot was "the consultants, staffers, activists and others who are maybe 5% of the population think they decide elections, but they don't. Elections are decided by the 95% of the voting population who rarely do more than vote!".

BO is a wonderful place (sometimes ) to hang out with the 5% folks. One can do so on a cold day and have debates without having to be in the same room with others.

But blogs are not the real world. As I recall, Kari has written columns about the need to turn off the computer, go out and volunteer on actual campaigns.

FWIW YMMV

But blogs are not the real world. As I recall, Kari has written columns about the need to turn off the computer, go out and volunteer on actual campaigns.

FWIW YMMV

I actually made my first post to express the identical sentiment, when a few were picketing against the war, but most were blogging.

He had a truly hilarious link to a cartoon a ways back, that I still reference. The wife, I believe, was calling a guy in front of the computer to bed, and he was saying, "but somewhere someone is saying something wrong"!

I agree about the 5% and those that never post. There are a lot of silent voices that take inspiration.

"What offense did Adams commit, that the world is not aware of, but you are apparently keeping from the rest of us?

And if you read the article, you'll note that Minnis has already resigned and forfeited his law enforcement certification."

Well, since Minnis hasn't been charged with anything, then I'd ask the same - What exact offense has Minnis committed that merits Ms Axtman's salacious commentary?

For Mr TorridJoes benefit (since it seems worthy to him to take taxpayer time to comment), it seems the parallels with Adams' are too conveniently close: - Minnis choosing someone younger to harrass vs. Adams grooming Breedlove before he was 18 - Minnis' resignation vs. Adams what? - Adams slander of Ball vs. Minnis' what? - Adams creating a story out of whole cloth to get re-elected vs. Minnis' what?

Was Adams legal? I suppose so, but keeping people in office (contrary to Ms Axtman's protestations that his behavior is not worthy of recall) just because they can skirt the law to avoid being arrested seems a low bar. Then no one should complain about Wall Street types or sleazy mortgage brokers who break no laws, but end up ripping off taxpayers or howe owners.

Then again, Adams is a progressive and Minnis is not, so that is that.

Posted by: Pete Forsyth | Dec 11, 2009 10:19:22 AM

The anonymously-posted cowardly barbs in this thread are pretty extreme.

The "outing" of LT above tops the list. Surprised it hasn't been removed by now.

Yeah. Well, if that's the way they want to be, turnabout is fair play! "Freezing in Salem" is Rob Kremer. No cut could be better with this guy than to let him describe HIS raison d'etre. One can see how he points fingers and cries pitiful. Lots of familiarity with the concept.

Portland, Oregon is occupied territory. It was invaded years ago by a non-native species of political animal from back east who took over our political and cultural institutions in order to try out their utopian socialist dreams on our great state. This blog will chronicle the insurgency that is trying to free Oregon from the occupiers' grip by shining a bright light on their most egregious schemes.

"Freezing", you may be freezin' 'em off, but if I ever find out who you are, I promise they'll be handed to you.

Sick 'em, boy!

<h2>I love Alsacians. Such beautiful dogs. I've seen Z at shows.</h2>