There's a tacit assertion that, as a pacifist, you might care to address. The decision to go into the military or work via non-violent means is a hard one. I've no problem with supporting those that choose differently. Why, though, is it right to penalize those that choose as we do? This is a tough jobs environment and all the points added to state job apps- for life- and the local "hire a vet" programs say, very clearly, that their decision is worth more than ours.

As you point out, a lot of us believe, as well, that they made the wrong decision, to perpetrate an illegal, aggressive, colonial, badly thought out process. The message is loud and clear that following traditional society is a lot safer than thinking for yourself. How much is this like home mortgage bail-outs, where you are reinforcing people for making bad decisions that they knew were bad at the time? (I won't even go into how contemporary "service" is apples and oranges compared to pre-Viet Nam. They didn't have "force protection" contractors to keep them safe).

Bottom line, I don't have a problem with the 11/11/11 action. I just hope people are as open minded when it comes to supporting the homeless this winter. It's hard to listen to talk about how they had it coming, then support unconditionally those who see being a pawn in an illegal war as "service".

(btw, the secret to enjoying Twitter: finding excellent people to follow)

Unlike BO, where every troll has a say, eh? For my money, all homo sapiens are degenerate scum. The content of their ideas is all I really care to notice. Definitely not an acceptable conclusion in this society. Of course, the shoe could easily be on the other foot. I take it you're a "situational pacifist". Weren't against WWII, right? And situational conscientious objecting, last I checked, is considered, and prosecutable as, outright treason. I think vets would get more support if the government they served didn't have its foot on our throats. Bad government is bad for everyone. Even "insiders".

At my office, we voted to trade the Veteran's Day holiday for the Friday after Thanksgiving. So we work today and ignore the sacrifices of the soldiers and sailors and Marines who have served the country. But we do get "Black Friday" off for shopping, and as I am sure Blue Oregon readers will agree, there is nothing like breaking a couple collar bones at 5:00 am at Walmart on my way through the front door to grab a $5.00 DVD player to put me in the holiday spirit.

God Bless America.

Better yet, join and support Veterans for Peace (veteransforpeace.org). Vets can join as full members, others as affiliate members.

and conflating different issues just because you get the bandwidth to do so is incredibly disrespectful.

No, T.A., it was incredibly considered. I'll leave you to your patriotic rut. Thanks for confirming that you're resentful of the bandwidth.

Note to self: stop diving into the shallow end!

Peri, Greg...get with the program!

Excellent post. I enjoyed it thoroughly, and, in the end, that's all that matters. Keep on keepin' on, t.a., and you'll recover your faith. I'm praying. God bless America and God bless every one of the military, past and present, from Bob Dole to the Joint Chiefs to the buck private!

Military service bridges many cultural divides. Think about it. Who would you rather have a conversation with today? These liberals, or Bob Dole? I rest my case.

Here's what I don't get: so we are to recognize the contribution of veterans, despite the politics that surround many of America's adventures?

Does this mean the Japanese are supposed to honor their WW2 vets, too? And the Germans are supposed to honor the Nazi vets (they were only following orders)?

I think a close examination of history will show that America has conducted genocide, on occasion. Not quite on par as the Nazis, but several million killed civilians were killed in SE Asia in the '60s-early '70s. And there was the Philippine War in the 1st decade of the 20th century. And on and on. The history of U.S. projecting itself into other countries is practically endless.

And I don't believe the deployment in Afghanistan is making me any safer. So, if "they're fighting for me", they didn't ask my permission to do so.

Does this mean the Japanese are supposed to honor their WW2 vets, too? And the Germans are supposed to honor the Nazi vets (they were only following orders)?

Why, yes. 41 honored Japanese WWII dead (right before he puked in the ambassador's lap) and today Catholic veterans see no contradiction in their honoring WWII dead, while swearing allegiance to a Nazi panzergrenedier.

There are some things better not questioned. That was t.a.'s point in response, above. The Romans realize the first, last and middle thing in warfare is not having anyone question orders. That's why they practiced decimation. That's why they rolled over everyone else. Free thinking Celts, on the other hand, each acted their conscience, and were slaughtered for it. Their culture is largely lost. They contribution to history that could have been will never be. If they had only obeyed orders, it might well be different.

Muslim fanatics obey orders. We cannot afford "discussion" that takes away from the phalanx mentatlity that a culture must have. QED, get to Pioneer Square and pay some homage. Ignore the blasphemy!

As a veteran from a miltary family and someone who has significant studies in history I have to disagree with your comment when you write, "Without a strong military, the United States would be isolated and under constant threat around the globe, especially in commercial ventures."

Most American politicians know little or nothing of other cultures but don't hesitate for a minute telling others how to live and what to believe.The U.S. has become the world's biggest busybody always sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong.

Bring all the troops home!

T.A. He was not a Korean War vet, he was a Vietnam war dustoff medic who pulled more than 300 casualties during just one of his 22 months in country. He has the right to rant and if you couldn't figure out what he was saying, it was that war is the most obscene activity we engage in, usually done for profit.

He wrote that because he was up all night with his demons. That's what war does.

I was the one who read the 1938 proclamation.

George Anonymuncule Seldes

Thanks Join or donate the VFP http://www.veteransforpeace.org/join_donate.vp.html

May this day long be remembered for those who served our country in the military, regardless the political belief of the reader; despite the cynical political means and ends that they have been sent off to engage.

I've already donated my $11. I am profoundly dissapointed that Bush sidetracked Afghanistan for Iraq.

my grandfathers, uncle and father all served. i was the last year of the draft and did not get called up. Too old for Lebanon, Gulf War or now. for those who don't like the military, or never served, stop bithing because those who did get some preferential treatment in public hiring.

Today is their day, thanks t.a. for reminding us all.

T.A.

thank you for letting me know about the 11-11 project. I have forwarded this info to my friends.

While many of us may have different opinions about our current conflicts, it is still important to remember those who have served to protect our freedoms.

Not everyone who serves is involved with conflicts that some disagree with. There are many defensive efforts here in the US as well as in other parts of the world. Whether to help our allies or to protect our citizens and interests outside the U.S. they all work to ensure the peace.

As to whether we should be the only peace keepers in the world, that is an entirely different question.

I am thankful for the efforts of our veterans who are serving and have served.

"The woman in Tualatin died for the same reason as the Fort Hood soldiers, just to put the murders into perspective against the deaths of the Fort Lewis soldiers." - TA

WTF? Off the meds again? Medical Marijuana kicking in?

The Tualatin woman died as a result of domestic violence.

The Ft Hood Soliders were killed as a result of Hassan and his radical Muslim IMam preacher Anwar al-Awlaki, who hates Amerika.

Much like Rev. Wright Hates Amerika.

So put your Mao suit back on TA. Pack the bong, and maybe burn a flag to celebrate Veterans Day like a good democrat.

On November 11, 1918 the leaders of the belligerent armies fighting the First World War knew around 5:00 am that an armistice would signed at 11:00 am to end hostilities. Nevertheless, they ordered their troops to continue fighting - and dying and being maimed - up to the last minute for essentially nothing. Henry Gunther, an American soldier, died at 10:59 am.

Some historians hold the opinion that if the British didn't have an understanding from Woodrow Wilson that the United States would join them in the war and tilt the balance of power to give the allies victory a truce might have been declared in 1917. Between then and armistice day more than a million people died.

If he were alive today, I wonder what two-time Medal of Honor winner General Smedley Butler would have to say.

The best way we can show respect for our troops is to make sure we don't send them into harm's way if it is not in our national security interest. The last time that could be said to have been justified was WWII. Sending them off to kill and be killed and maim and be maimed for the benefit of corporate Amerika doesn't count.

Bill, Sending them off to kill and be killed and maim and be maimed for the benefit of corporate Amerika doesn't count.

Which is exactly what the veteran T.A. mentioned was "rant"ing about. When someone has had the experience of stuffing guts back into mangled bodies day after day, it isn't a "rant", it is bearing witness.

Celebrating Slaughter: War and Collective Amnesia by Chris Hedges should be required reading.

War memorials and museums are temples to the god of war. The hushed voices, the well-tended grass, the flapping of the flags allow us to ignore how and why our young died. They hide the futility and waste of war. They sanitize the savage instruments of death that turn young soldiers and Marines into killers, and small villages in Vietnam or Afghanistan or Iraq into hellish bonfires. There are no images in these memorials of men or women with their guts hanging out of their bellies, screaming pathetically for their mothers. We do not see mangled corpses being shoved in body bags. There are no sights of children burned beyond recognition or moaning in horrible pain. There are no blind and deformed wrecks of human beings limping through life. War, by the time it is collectively remembered, is glorified and heavily censored.

Ol' Smedley would just repeat his sigature quote: War is a racket

The patriot's dream still lives on today It makes mothers weep and it makes lovers pray Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

"Ol' Smedley would just repeat his sigature quote: War is a racket"

and, very likely:

"It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism."

"What if the gave a war and nobody came" - Carl Sandburg

T.A. - Until you make an unambiguous statement whether you view military members like Matthis Chiroux, Agustin Aguayo, Ehren Watada, Yolanda Huet-Vaughn and so many more who have refused to deploy to the illegal war in Iraq and Afghanistan, standing up to the harassment of the military and the government, as true heros who deserve honor and our full support, your cause rings hollow.

Contrary to your argument that the key point "is not the legality of the war and occupation of Iraq", that is the most important point. The specific nature of our support for those who make war must be carefully matched to the morality of the war they chose and agreed to make for our country so as not to honor their service, but only heal their wounds and help them be witnesses forever after against war.

Until we reach that day, however, let’s demonstrate our respect for our fellow citizens by continuing to work for peace and by caring for those who’ve tried to serve the cause of peace in their own way, in uniform. Yes, it’s a bit of a contradiction, but our brains are big enough to grasp the full concept.

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. ~ ~ ~ George Orwell "Nineteen Eighty-Four" (Ingsoc party slogan)"

I'm s orry T.A. but your last comment is utter bullshit. Many people like myself who have been broken by military service and war in my family for several generations have charged the rest of us to bear witness against people who argue as you do. Because of your tragic and sadly understandable moral confusion, you actually pose one the greatest obstacles to stopping war.

"Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." ~ ~ ~ Ernest Hemingway

This is such a serious topic, I must correct what I know will be read incorrectly:

Many people like myself who have been broken by military service and war in my family for several generations have charged the rest of us to bear witness against people who argue as you do.

A better statement would have been:

Many people like myself have family members broken by military service for several generations who have charged the rest of us to bear witness against people who argue as you do.

Eleven Eleven: taking back our Veterans Day

Whose is it now? Anyone that tries to make factual, considered points after reading that title is a complete idiot!

"But it is they, far more than the victims at Fort Hood, for whom these holidays exists. (The woman in Tualatin died for the same reason as the Fort Hood soldiers, just to put the murders into perspective against the deaths of the Fort Lewis soldiers.)"

Although I think the 11/11/11 project is an excellent one (and I've already donated, thank you) I take exception to the statement above. All our servicemen and women, regardless of how/where/why they are killed are deserving of the title veteran and to be honored on Veteran's Day. None of those soldiers who died at Ft Hood would have been at Ft Hood had they not chosen to serve their country. They were there as part of their sworn duty and were killed while wearing the uniform and serving. No one knows why that Major killed them and for the purposes of remembering and honoring them, it doesn't matter. They are veterans, they died soldiers and they deserve recognition as such. I think you'll find there families consider them veterans as much as those who have served and died---or served and lived---overseas.

Had we not allowed our fear and anger to get the better of us in 2003

You have a mouse in your pocket? That is really rich. Seem to recall that what party faithful were doing was painting progressives as outdated 60s freaks that couldn't handle realpolitk and rationalizing why their party leadership was acting identical to the Great Satan Bush. Funny how all the "totally out of touch" posters, haven't had to flip 180 degrees, like mainstream Dems. It really is a toss up which side of the aisle uses more self-validating logic.

Ms. Mel reminds me of something I heard once, which is appropriate to consider on Veterans' Day. I did my MA in industrial psych and my thesis prof had been an Army shrink. He used to tell story after story about how heart wrenching it was. Everyday guys would come in for evaluation. Some normal, some sick, some faking it. He had to make the call, and send them to the front. He said that every time he heard about something like Mi Lai massacre, he would lie awake for nights thinking, "was that someone I sent into combat that I shouldn't have".

Add being Muslim in the American Army to that...who shrinks the head shrinkers? Not hard to imagine how a mind could snap and say, "why wait for it? why not just shoot them now?" Apocalypse Now dramatized well the mind wrenching effects of trying to live civilly in an insane military situation. Many that snap are tired of the frustration and taking a direct course. "If I had one division of such men, our troubles here would soon be over".

And my point? When you make this a black and white, cut and dried issue, when you dismiss those with doubts, you put the troops at greater risk. Talk to people or shoot them, but don't just let them walk around ticking down, if you care about our troops.

You know, t.a., you can really make my blood boil. After reading the exchange between you and Ms. Brown it's boiling over.

Posted by: Peri Brown | Nov 11, 2009 11:07:48 AM For my money, all homo sapiens are degenerate scum.

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM Peri, first of all, i'm not scum.

I think that was clearly qualified as a personal opinion. I guess it's "t.a.- defender of primate honour"! Heaven knows I'm loaded with ammo, but that's another matter.

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM (did they call them that in WWI?)

Yes. And earlier (War of Spanish Succession, etc.)

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM second, WWII was the result of incredible political failure As opposed to our current operations which are brilliant political moves, orchestrated by Baby Bush and implemented according to the best practices of the UN? She was too polite to say, it, but I will. So, if Germany had won, how would Europe look different today? England would be a part of the monetary union instead of using the cobbled together ERM. Oh, and people would know why facism is stupid, instead of trying to resurrect it everywhere. Other than that it's 50,000,000 dead for nada. Agreed about France leaving Germany destitute and armed. So, what will we look like in 50 years? Today? Destitute and armed? When will it stop being "service"? Yeah, after we lose the big one. THAT is why WWII (and III) happened, and will happen.

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM and celebrating it is not necessarily the best thing we do.

So, is that who you're taking it back from? WWI vets? I don't get that (or, as another poster said, who has it now?).

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM and conflating different issues just because you get the bandwidth to do so is incredibly disrespectful.

Posted by: Peri Brown | Nov 11, 2009 11:07:48 AM contemporary "service" is apples and oranges compared to pre-Viet Nam

So, her point was that you can't conflate the two. Someone else lamenting "all that unpoliced speech", like the Archbishop of Canterbury? It sounded like an intellectual hypothesis. There are words for situations where free thinking is not allowed to ask certain questions. Mainly relating to religion they are dogma, blasphemy, heresy and worship. If the military isn't your religion, why do you genuflect?

Posted by: Peri Brown | Nov 11, 2009 11:07:48 AM

There's a tacit assertion that, as a pacifist, you might care to address

So, snark was better than, "no I don't care to"? Or is it not properly signed? You've read posts about people using pseudonyms. Did you really not get it or are you saying, "screw your life situation! Who's yer daddy?"

Posted by: t.a. barnhart | Nov 11, 2009 12:17:38 PM well, i don't know what. i gave up and walked away. there's a time to remember those who served and died, and there's a time to express anger with and opposition to your government.

Just like this thread. So, are you saying they served us, like it or not? They served the government. That that government required their sacrifice, or is worthy of it is more than slightly relevant. If you jumped in front of a car to save a child, then found out that the child was a spiteful midget, going into the traffic to decoy cyclers into jumping in front of cars (and named James K arlock), would that not be relevant to your sacrifice?

just cuz it feels good to do so doesn't make it right.

The only hedonism on display is your "I read a few then ignore all the garbage when I post". I don't think most progressives enjoy being the ball thrown into the Dem scrum. Pulling someone's head out of their arse is not a pleasant chore. You think when you get an enema at the doctor's that the tech probably enjoyed that or wouldn't be doing it, don't you?

But, since you really seem to need a "disrespectful troll" to push back against, I'll give you one. Maybe you can see the diff. "And let's not forget to honor ALL vets today. Major Nidal Hassan has made the ultimate sacrifice. He has sacrificed honor and respect unable to live as a hypocrite any longer. He has lost his mind and will lose his life. Let us never forget that, when your child decides to join the military".

There, t.a. You can call that "incredibly disrespectful".

Thank you Peri, for taking the time. Please don't take away the conclusion that every poster on here has such a one track heart with dogma as compensation for the rest.

You know, Peri, you raise an interesting point in your first post. When OR started the active bleedout that never really stopped, in 1999, I recall being told bluntly by Homeland Security recruiters (yep, I'm a pretty persistent researcher, and I got in behind their hedges in the early days) that ALL of those jobs (the ONLY jobs opening in Oregon, believe me) were reserved for military or ex-military.

Made me feel awfully awfully grateful. Not really....I understood the rationales they were spouting. But it was merely another entitlements and jobs program for vets. Massive, funded out of me and mine who were struggling again. And so many of those jobs, utterly accessible and not buried behind cryptography, were so specifically right for my skillset.

Yah... it's a tough dealie. I even tried, finally, in desperation, to land a job in low-level military recruiting infrastructure, on the public side. They did not want someone my age, with a child, with some civilian injuries. They wanted someone bound for recruitland.

To his credit, the man in charge of the "station" was respectful, intelligent, understood my and many's plight. I could not hate him.

But the preference was pretty brutal. Only someone bound for military service - these ads written as if they were honest opportunities for anyone who could do the job were only Bush-era ploys to stoke the military corpus.

Sigh.

Wow, rw. And I thought software contracts for over-40s were a tough row to hoe!

I don't know if folks realize how much the progressives on here have actually gotten their feet wet in a lot of the areas we talk about. As opposed to the link spammers that listen to a lot of talk radio, and think they know something... At least our catharsis is earned!

<h2>Kim is one cool chick! She is not only a fine actress, she is civic-oriented too.</h2>