"The Hypocrisy of the Anti-Tax Campaign"

A human condition without end.

"That’s how concerned Mr. McCormick and his campaign are about the unemployed: they could easily have designed their referendum in a way that maintains the tax break for 270,000 unemployed Oregonians, but it was so unimportant to them that they didn’t even consider it. "

Nothing new there. These anti-tax people (really anti-their-own-taxes) don't give a damn about other people. Probably never have and never will. The related problem is they talk about jobs for people and the ill-informed and poorly educated are naive enough to believe them.

Why do we still have such high unemployment across the nation after the stimulus spending?

What will higher taxes get us - more jobs like the stimulus bill, or maybe we can get health insurance for people here illegally?

What a farce. Good luck holding onto your majorities.

I've wanted a measure 66 to vote for since Boomer was a pup. It is so freakin' obvious. But then, that doesn't quell the TEA crowd's blood lust. I still say dueling might have a constructive part to play...

"Why do we still have such high unemployment across the nation after the stimulus spending?"

Ned, I rarely use the word "stupid" when it comes to other people's opinions, but that's kinda stupid.

That's like saying "Why do we still have fires if there's a fire department?"

OMG, we have a Police force, but there is still crime! Looks like the whole "Police" idea was a total failure!

Seriously.

this is the same steve novick that the portland public schools wasted 5,000 dollars on last year on a consulting contract to study how to be stimulated.mr novick the democrats including that worthless invisible governor kulongoski who btw has done absoulutely nothing to get our unemployment rate down and could care less about the plight of our unemployed.the liberals in oregon including you mr novick all you care about is nonsense like global warming,renewable energy,green jobs,car emissions,school funding and other garbage.you liberals could care less about the unemployed and have no plan at all to reduce our unemployment rate and make oregon more business friendly.you liberals will use the same old tired gloom and doom extortion scare tactics about we will have to throw grandma off her meds if you vote these tax increases down which is nonsense.baloney the anti tax people dont care about the unempolyed and otehr people mr rodden its your liberal buddies in the legislature who dont care.all you greedy selfish liberals want is more taxes,fees,regulations and etc to drive all the jobs out of oregon.change your ways for once and tell us the real truth about things.

Steve,

The portion of the personal income tax measure that exempts unemployment compensation from Oregon taxable income was merely trying to conform state tax law with federal tax law (and apparantly not doing it very well). See http://bojack.org/2009/10/get_your_kicks_on_measure_66.html#comments.

When the tax hikes are defeated and the legislature goes back in session in January, they can certainly pass legislation again conforming state tax law to federal tax law on this issue (and hopefully doing it right this time). No one will have the slightest interest in challenging that action.

It would probably have been politically smart for the opponents of the tax hikes to carve out this part of the bill from the vote, but they didn't. To take that oversight and turn it into an argument that the opponents of the tax hikes (including me) aren't motivated by preserving Oregon jobs just isn't fair or accurate.

Bob Wiggins

Posted by: matthew vantress | Oct 23, 2009 6:04:52 PM

this is the same... and so forth.

Nice E.E.Cummings style, but I don't get the liberal rant. A lot of us "liberals that don't give a damn about the unemployed" are small business owners that feel like they've lost a family member when someone is let go. Do we hate ourselves? Oh, right. That's one of those Rushie dogmas, no?

Get real. We don't. The Mahatma didn't fast because he hated food.

DS - Laughing at your BS.

The stimulus package didn't even come close to making a dent in unemployment nation wide. 49 out of 50 states have fewer jobs since the stimulus. Gold is at an all time high, the dollar is tanking....

Why should we continue to give you idiots more money? You haven't done anything to earn or prove you can manage more money. I wouldn't trust most of the democRATS in office to run a fucking McDonalds let alone the country.

But keep up your 'higher tax' strategy - it will look great at election time! Buwhahahahahha.

Yes, Oregon's troubled economy is largely due to the under taxation of business and the general populace. Of course! It all makes perfect sense now! Thank you Steve, Chuck & Chip for your persistence and bashing that point home into my feeble brain. We are in fact just too business friendly and don't hit the taxpayers wallet nearly hard enough. What a fool I was.

When some of us talk about the "anti-tax crowd" we are usually referring to people who have an automatic reflex to the word "tax" with "hell, no" or some equivalent without giving thought to whether the tax is valid or not. Of course, there are taxes that should be rejected - not by a negative attitude towards all taxes but by a reasoned argument.

The related problem is they talk about jobs for people and the ill-informed and poorly educated are naive enough to believe them.

Ouch. I will give you all the credit in the world for having the guts to put your name to that. So, anyone who disagrees with you does so b/c they are ignorant. Nice. Is this what the right refers to as elitist?

Bob, if you really think the legislature is going to come back into session, facing a billion dollar budget hole, and vote to make that hole bigger by giving out tax breaks to the unemployed, you have no political compass whatsoever.

But then, that ain't surprising.

Ned

Do you support raising taxes on ALL to fight the war on terror?

"Pat McCormick, a spokesman for Oregonians Against Job-Killing Taxes, said that to his knowledge nobody thought of doing that."

Either Pat is getting sloppy in his old age, or Novick's critque is spot on.

Sep.t 27 Sunday Oregonian front page of the print edition, TAX HIKES ON BALLOT BUT CLOUT ON THE LINE. One line in the article, "Business lobbyists say they are determined to show they are still an important force in a legislature dominated by Democrats...."

Whatever one thinks of Bob Packwood, he once said something very intelligent.

Difference between a gamble and a longshot: A longshot you know the odds--you know they are long odds, but you know the odds. A gamble you don't know the odds.

The more I see about the statements from the anti-taxers, the more I believe it was a gamble.

And the more I think about my old friend Julie commenting on things like Pat's comment here and some other comments he has made.

"When they act like that, you know, they know they are losing".

Did the petitioners listen to their own echo chamber to the point they didn't realize that unemployed people have the right to vote ? Were they THAT blinded by ideology that they considered themselves infallible?

As an old friend used to say, there are Greek words for such arrogance and blindness to reality: Hubris is followed by nemesis.

In June 1932 Pres. Hoover was forced to make the biggest tax hike in history, from 20% to 63% on the very rich. (Republicans Harding and Coolidge lowered the top rate from 70% to 21% in the early 20's.) Why? Basically because there were so many unemployed and so many had lost their homes from foreclosure and property tax evasion that that was the only source of revenue left. They did propose a Naational Sales Tax but that almost caused a national revolution.

Ned, perhaps without the stimulus program the nationwide unemployment numbers would be in the 12%-15% range. IOW maybe it just softened the fall.

"So, anyone who disagrees with you does so b/c they are ignorant. Nice. Is this what the right refers to as elitist?"

Not at all, but when we consider the number of people buying into the lies and distortions coming out of the mouths of pundits on Faux News and their counterparts on radio we should be concerned.

Yes, Bob, they do just react to the word "taxes". Take the Palin worshipper that lives next door. Totally against this. "Grrrrrr...taxes". He also happens to be unemployed and drawing benefits. Now, consider just how thick you have to be to walk around chanting "I'm taxed enough already", then, when a measure is introduced to reduce your taxes, you say, "grrr...taxes, agin".

mp, surely you don't mean "Ned"? WunderBlunder has used lots of real sounding names, like "Hal". It's the same dittohead obeying his masters, As for courage, he's a coward. Has been called out frequently to debate folks that are ready to answer his scree and he has been too cowardly to show his face.

I'm totally serious about the twitter #bringbackdueling campaign. Think about it. We are on the brink because we have people with votes that refuse to communicate in any meaningful way. That has to be overcome before we can make progress on anything! We tried the economy and health care. They weren't important enough for them to get real. But dueling...guns, gore, hubris...it's dittohead heaven. But changing the law would be one tough row to hoe. Would require a lot of cooperation and working together. And neither side would have to make pretenses about "bipartisanship", etc. If the process went on long enough it would change all involved.

Look. Here's a concrete example. Do these look like people you could ever engage in meaningful debate? But read on. They like the idea of dueling. I am convinced this is the only way that we can open a line of real communication to those that, make no mistake, will surely destroy what little we still enjoy in this country.

If any doubt they can do that, visit NW Arkansas. Lovely country and you can't enjoy one moment of it, anywhere, because the ratio of ordinary people to christian soldiers is so low.

So these tax increases are needed to help the unemployed?

Hillarious.

In reality they are to fill the big hole the reckless spender in the legislators created with the 9% increase in spending last session.

But here we are with the usual suspects trying to deceive the public into thinking they are simply equality and fairness tax measure to help the needy.

Not to mention the 1000s of public employees needing protected.

Hmm, perhaps we could explore the hypocrisy of the dems in Salem. Why if granting unemployment exemption was it burined in a bill raising taxes on the rich? Why was it capped at a measly $2,400?

Sounds like the dems in Salem borrowed something from the Rovian playbook as a "GOTCHA" for anti-tax folks. In otherwords, the dems used the unemployed as a pawn in their larger scheme, knowing that a repal petiion would be filed. The anti-taxers fell for it.

I am so glad to be NAV!

Great, guys, but you miss a couple points.

Are ALL tax breaks good things? Or only tax breaks for upper income?

More importantly, how will the hole be plugged if the taxes fail?

Not by "Not to mention the 1000s of public employees needing protected. "

Anyone who seriously believes there are too many public employees needs to communicate with their legislators exactly which public employees they believe should be laid off.

See, that's what you're going to get from the likes of Richard if you try to debate YOUR issues. #bringbackdueling. Only way to engage these people.

They really can't address anything beyond their dittohead quotes. Look. This is the twitter #rush tag results. They even repeat the same lines among themselves. It's like some unholy Buddhist chant!

I guess the phrase they were taught today was "Roll with Rush". You really think you can have a debate with these people? They have the same vote you do. Better come up with a solution. At least I've proposed one.

<h1>ShamarTV Roll with #RUSH or roll with nothing! BREEZEWAY ENT..@slush09 @brycebreezee @djessencephx @STEVEMASH @JSLUGG500 @NICELOOKKNOX 8 minutes ago from TweetDeck</h1> <h1>Twitterprofilephoto_normal L8EHayz RT @SLUSH09: Roll wit #RUSH or roll wit nothing!BREEZEWAY ENT..@slush09 @brycebreezee @djessencephx @STEVEMASH @JSLUGG500 @NICELOOKKNOX 12 minutes ago from web</h1> <h1>Smallb_normal brycebreezee @JeanGrayJFK #rush v. , rushed , rushing , rushes . v.intr. To move or act swiftly; hurry. To make a sudden or swift attack or charge 13 minutes ago from UberTwitter</h1> <h1>S1092851897_30032443_2295_normal JeanGrayJFK Who u rollin wit? We rollin wit #Rush (in my Rakim voice w/ move the crowd playin in the bckrnd!) Peace peace peace peace peace! 18 minutes ago from UberTwitter</h1> <h1>S1092851897_30032443_2295_normal JeanGrayJFK RT @brycebreezee: FOLLOW @JeanGrayJFK because she is officially rollin with #RUSH 25 minutes ago from UberTwitter</h1> <h1>Smallb_normal brycebreezee FOLLOW @JeanGrayJFK because she is officially rollin with #RUSH 29 minutes ago from UberTwitter</h1> <h1>Work_out_normal JSLUGG500 Roll wit #RUSH or roll wit nothing!BREEZEWAY ENT@slush09 @brycebreezee @djessencephx @STEVEMASH @JSLUGG500 @NICELOOKKNOX 29 minutes ago from twidroid</h1> <h1>Smallb_normal brycebreezee RT @SLUSH09: Roll wit #RUSH or roll wit nothing!BREEZEWAY ENT..@slush09 @brycebreezee @djessencephx @STEVEMASH @JSLUGG500 @NICELOOKKNOX 32 minutes ago from UberTwitter</h1> <h1>Skull_headphones_cigarette_by_pleasenojunkthanks_normal SLUSH09 Roll wit the #RUSH or roll wit nothing!BREEZEWAY ENT..@slush09 @brycebreezee @djessencephx @STEVEMASH @JSLUGG500 @NICELOOKKNOX..follow!!! about 1 hour ago from mobile web</h1> <h1>H88h8h_normal armypatriot RT @TakingBackUSA BO Goes Wobbly on Afghanistan http://bit.ly/3bJ7ug #impeachobama #glennbeck #Rush #rightriot #tcot about 1 hour ago from Twidge</h1> <h1>10 BrokePimpStyles @thegipperreview @mrpayback run around holding #rush drawers, shaving #beck back, have you no ambition? a mean got dayum about 1 hour ago from TweetDeck</h1>

I don't believe in litmus tests, but Measure 66 comes darn close. Anyone that is against this really is of no account. It is mind numbingly obvious. Good debate among the sincere. Points taken, LT!

I don't believe I would coin a slogan like "roll with Rush" if I were shaped like a beachball. So these people are mainly listening in their cars?!? Wonderful. Another group that will consciously try to main and kill cyclists. Yo! Terry Parker in the house? That's your queue to tell us why we deserve to die for making the sacrifice you won't that allows you to have your precious whelps.

matthew vantress's post brings to mind another thought:

"mr novick all you care about is nonsense like global warming,renewable energy,green jobs,car emissions,school funding and other garbage."

Yep, nonsense like school funding is obviously a waste, given its success (or lack thereof) in educating Oregon's citizens. ...It really would be nice if folks could learn to spell & use at least 5th grade grammar!

Let's just keep the taxes on corps & high income earners ridiculously low, scrap all the public services, and we can go back to a lord/serf fiefdom sort of society. Worked well enough for Western Civilization for centuries (prior to coming out of the Dark Ages)!

After reading all of these comments I have only one question, how much (tax increases) is enough?

How do you decide when you've spent enough on groceries?

@ Steve,

Steve wrote: If the measure passes, 270,000 Oregonians who were unemployed during 2009 get a tax break. If the measure is overturned, they don’t.

Yeah, let's motivate the unemployed to STAY that way. Dumb ass. It's no wonder Oregon's unemployment rate is approaching 11%.

Posted by: Ricky | Oct 26, 2009 11:33:32 AM

@ Steve,

Steve wrote: If the measure passes, 270,000 Oregonians who were unemployed during 2009 get a tax break. If the measure is overturned, they don’t.

Yeah, let's motivate the unemployed to STAY that way. Dumb ass. It's no wonder Oregon's unemployment rate is approaching 11%.

Would you care to work that one out? I'd like to hear a scenario where owing less to the gov means that someone is gonna kick back. Perhaps you think they should be barred from filing bankruptcy as well? All that sudden solvency could be vewwy bad for the jobless rate!

Glad to know you support giving the homeless a home. That'll get 'em off their butts!

Sean didn't meantion those talking points, did he? "Dumb ass".

The real problem should be fixed. It's not easy, and I don't know the answer. But as long as jobs are being shipped overseas and the US is producing nothing other than paperwork, there are going to be no jobs coming back. The big wig corporations (Intel, Walmart, etc) really don't care if we produce things here. They're making enough money by producing/buying overseas products that they can live anywhere. That's not true for the rest of us. It's a scary world coming up no matter what, taxes or no taxes. We need to start producing - tax the overseas products to make the prices comparable to what it would take to produce here? But then that gets into protectionism and as far into debt with China we are, they already own this country so I don't know how this will get fixed.

The old "the unemployed are lazy" argument,

"Yeah, let's motivate the unemployed to STAY that way. Dumb ass. It's no wonder Oregon's unemployment rate is approaching 11%."

In the early 1980s (unemployment much like now) someone in the Reagan White House made the statement "the unemployed are lazy" and one network did a split-screen story with that comment and a factory somewhere on a cold day in like November where people were lined up around the block to apply for jobs.

The factory or whatever only had a specific number of jobs. If, for instance, there were 50 jobs available and 500 people lined up, does that mean the 450 people who didn't get hired are "lazy"?

<h2>I work part time, therefore I am "employed". Before I got this job (just got my first paycheck at the end of October) was I "lazy"? Why?</h2>