This is really offensive and should NOT have happened. It is the UNIONS that are supposed set fires at night and intimidate people. It just goes to show that the world is upside down and going to Hell.

Hey, I know nothing about this fire, but the neighborhood of 26th and Powell is not immune from good old fashioned random crime. If it was some sort of domestic terrorism / arson for hire, then go after the criminals with all due haste. But that sort of conclusion seems premature. The Oregon progressive movement has been "burned" more than once by jumping on the crime victim bandwagon prematurely.

At today's teaparty rally, SEIU was repeatedly denounced as "thugs", and one of the speakers was the guy who claims to have been beat up by SEIU members at a Town Hall in Missouri. It's easy to see how these rallies could encourage individuals to act out in increasingly dangerous ways.

The rally was sponsored by Michael's Italian Sausage at 11th and Sandy--boycott, anyone?

Are [alleged, heh heh] acts of domestic terrorism going to follow the Tea Party bus tour through the entire country, or just in Oregon?

Chris, thanks for the info on the TEA sponsors. Looked like theater to me.

In the 1960s, some groups (anti-war, worker's rights, etc.) used to stage what they called guerilla theater.

That was my impression of the KATU story on the rally. Bullhorn woman yelling NO MORE TAXES! Costume with the woman in silver hooked to a ball and chain labeled taxes. Some guy wearing what looked like an athletic jacket claiming he pays 70% in taxes.

What do these people do for a living? Were they paid to perform in this event?

Terrorism is terrorism--no difference between blowing up an ROTC building in the 1960s and blowing up an abortion clinic in a later decade.

If this was pure old fashioned random crime, someone was really stupid to do it the day of the rally and think no one would see a connection.

If it is someone who sees Tim McVeigh as a hero and thinks it is OK to physically threaten anyone connected to government or unions, do they think there will be no pushback? Crime is crime. If all the "tough on crime" folks want to make an exception for shooting at a federal building or what may well have been arson, then they only make themselves look bad.

My guess is ordinary voters don't buy the "Crime is OK if directed at political opponents" attitude.

BTW, as the granddaughter of a prosecutor (in the Kroger mode) who put away gangsters, people running protection rackets against businesses--"pay up and no one will burn down your business"--rumrunners in a county on the Canadian border during Prohibition, among other things, I hope no one thinks I am "playing the crime victim card" in saying that all suspicious activity should be investigated and all crimes should be prosecuted, period, end of discussion.

When I was younger there were people who thought there shouldn't be permanent consequences for those who blew up ROTC buildings (like prison sentences, losing the ability to enter certain professions because they had a criminal record, etc.) because "they were only protesting the war".

WRONG!

The constitutional protection is for "ability to peaceably assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances". Standing (or sitting down) in front of a government building is free speech. Any action (incl. gunshots and arson) which has the capacity to maim or kill a person is a crime, and if someone had been injured or killed by the (alleged) arson or the bullets, that would have been at least assault and possibly attempted murder, it seems to me.

No excuse. Even if it was a wingnut supposedly supporting a cause I had been spending all my spare time supporting, there still would be no excuse.

Ben D., of course you don't. That is the point. We inflict pain on each other. If we agree with the cause, then it is a necessary part of the struggle. If we do not, we condemn it as a horrific act. Unions have the one of the most crime laden, mafia infested, histories of any organizations. But we MUST support them because we agree with their cause. After all, if the end does not justify the means, what does?

Apparently trying to stop heathcare reform and calling our president a Nazi isn't enough for the teabaggers anymore. I hope they get caught and rot in jail.

"We inflict pain on each other. If we agree with the cause, then it is a necessary part of the struggle."

NO! It is a debate as old as the Aesop Fable about the Wind and the Sun.

Some believe that violence or at least bullying are all in the service of a cause--the coercion folks.

Some of us believe that persuasion is more successful. FYI, I don't take a person or cause seriously if they believe violence is a part of political action. Period. End of discussion.

And I know you believe that unions are the focus of evil in the modern world. That does not mean everyone does.

Anyone who believes unions have always been thugs and employers have never used violence doesn't know history.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,758013,00.html

Burnings, done by Trey Arrow or these people are ALL bad. If it is acceptable for one side to burn according to one group, then it is OK for others. Burnings, done by Trey Arrow or these people are ALL bad, unless one has an absolute claim to inerrancy. Maybe we do. Many others have.

Isn't anyone going to throw in some comparison to the Reichstag? If we're making huge leaps, might as well make a quantum one.

Of course, we'll neglect the threats to Lou DObbs who speaks out against illegal immigration.

Lou Dobbs, the Nazis, the church, Air America, Fox, the Boy Scouts, the D's the R's. Let's all point at each other. Let’s burn each other’s buildings. Let’s, like Chuck, insinuate righteous anger. After all, we are RIGHT.

Just to be clear, LT et al. . . .

what the right wing does is attempt to fog the issue by drawing childish false equivalences between the violence of raining down one million tons of ordnance on North Vietnam and four million tons on South Vietnam in an illegal, genocidal war that can never be expiated or forgiven on the one hand, and someone blowing up Army Math at the University of Wisconsin on the other.

They are not the same.

What the right wing does is draw infantile comparisons between the tens of thousands of workers and perhaps more that have died from unimaginably brutal working conditions and starvation level wages, all enforced by violence both private and publicly funded, on the one hand, and some dishonest and corrupt behavior by some union locals that varied between Damon Runyonesque and the On the Waterfront level of severity.

They are not the same.

God, it's no wonder the Democrats get their collective asses handed to them each and every time we elect them. The right wing thugs get to be as jackbooted as, well, as right wing thugs, and the left has to be 100% saintly or somehow they're both equally at fault for the social situation.

Jesus wept.

You're right Joe, Kill them all and let God sort them out.

Speaking of Lou Dobbs,

Another New Jersey State Police spokesperson, Sgt. Julian Castellanos, noted that "it's a wide open area and there are hunters in the area." Castellanos explained that the bullet had hit the house in vicinity of the attic; it "hit the vinyl siding and fell to the ground" without penetrating the vinyl, he said.

Lou Dobbs = WATB

Joe just shows the old debate---was it the violent wing of the anti-war movement which ended the Vietnam War? Or could it have had something to do with combination of the politicians who came to turn against the war, the young people radicalized by their friends becoming casualties, and groups like Vietnam Veterans Against the War?

Hate to say it, Joe, but barfhound is right about this, "If it is acceptable for one side to burn according to one group, then it is OK for others."

Joe, there is a movie from back then (if memory serves the title was something like THE WAR AT HOME) which I saw at a college screening at a local college with discussion after.

"...illegal, genocidal war that can never be expiated or forgiven on the one hand, and someone blowing up Army Math at the University of Wisconsin on the other."

Regardless of what happened in Vietnam, anyone who attended the U of Wisc. or saw the coverage of it has the right to say whether they believe that action was right or wrong. And saying someone is "prowar" because they condemn blowing up ROTC buildings (as often happened back then) is more likely to alienate people than to solve anything.

But then, the real Joe Hill believed in political violence, so you have a good screen name.

Tone down the rhetoric?

Does this mean AL Gore should quit calling people "climate criminals" and others should quit calling for trials or reeducation camps for non believers?

It seems that Sec. of Homeland Security Napolitano was right on when it comes to right wing extremist groups being a prominent threat in domestic terrorism. I hope the FBI is doing its job in surveillance of the tea-baggers. I see their supporters are out en masse trolling the blogosphere.

”It's plausible it was politically motivated. It's also plausible that it was more mundane on motivation -- maybe it was someone who got laid off or didn't get hired and thought SEIU did something or didn't do something.”

Let’s not ignore a third possibility...that the fires are a form of Pro-Intelco, where the “victim” perpetrated the crime as a way to gain sympathy for their cause.

Not that far-fetched at a time when Big Labor is calling the shots in Washington while seeking to deflect populist anger away from it.

Speaking of Lou Dobbs:

"Dobbs told his listeners that it had "followed weeks and weeks of threatening phone calls."

Gee, Huffington Post, great unbiased source. Why not take him at his word like you would if SEIU said something?

This blog is part of the frenzy anyways, everytime some punk pulls a prank like shooting out windows (this has happened before) it instantly becomes the responsibility of anyone who disagrees with opne-minded "progressives", otherwise, why would Mr BlueOregon post it here with heavlily-breathed nuancing?

Are any of you old enough to recall Azalea Cooley? I am, which is why I still say you should wait for definitive evidence before rushing to judgment on any of this. But if I ever want to get a lynch mob going, it appears that a few bits of random speculation on BlueOregon is the place to go.

If it turns out that the night janitor dropped his roach in the wastepaper basket or the photocopier shorted out, some of you are going to look mighty idiotic.

Sheesh!

Any act of violence or terrorism should be investigated and the culprits prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. there can be no excuses for this type behavior. Like Kari has stated, it could be a common criminal, a disgruntled union member or it could be targeted from groups who are anti-SEIU. We just don't know - yet.

I am thankful that nobody was injured and that the fire itself was put out quickly.

Thanks for the nod LT. My dad was in the NROTC building at the University of Washington during one of the anti-war riots. Destroying and maiming in the name of peace is like screwing for virginity. To paraphrase a great 70's saying.

Hey LT - as the daughter of a union shop steward for the railroads, a man who, as his parting act upon retirement, was recording illegal activity on the part of the rr, subverting the contract in place.... well, I suspect that comments above are ONLY trying to say "Let's not get all worked into a froth of supposition and mentalized drama on this blog ahead of actually knowing what happened!"

I hate looking stupid and bareassed when I supposed, ventilated, bloviated, ran... and found out that behind me was not even a starting line... it was just a bare patch on the field of play.

Thanks, Kurt. Political violence is never OK and I will vote against anyone who says otherwise. I had this debate back in the 1990s with a friend over whether Earth First had the right to be violent. Violence ends my support. Period. There are other ways of doing things, and if someone doesn't like that attitude, they don't want my vote.

RW, I have no idea what happened. But "They've determined that there's enough evidence to move forward with a criminal investigation of arson. (That's something less than a ruling that it was deliberately set, but a determination that it wasn't accidental.)"
does sound more like the actual investigators don't think this was just an accident like an electrical short.

What would REALLY piss me off would be, after all these posts, that it turned out to be caused by a squirrel chewing on a transformer.

Wow...so when a union hall gets set on fire, it's automatically the fault of republicans?

But when Bill Ayers bombs government buildings and then becomes best friends with Barack Obama...well...that's just not the same thing! He was protesting the evils of war-mongering republicans and it was justified!!

History has shown that people will damage the buildings of their enemies. History also shows that people will damage their OWN buildings...and blame it on their enemies. I guess if we find a charred red-white-and-blue elephant in the ashes, it's an open and shut case, right?

Sorry t.a., but you are wrong. Tre Arrow and his accomplices in ELF are terrorists. They destroyed homes, fire bombed businesses and caused widespread destruction.

By your definition, the firebombs the rednecks hid in the Alabama church in the mid 60's wasn't too bad. It was just unfortunate that some young girls happened to be in the building at the time. Wrong! Willful and wonton planned destruction via firebombs IS terrorism.

Dan, if nothing else you are engaging in classic simplifying. People like Ayers--agree with his tactics or not--were not blaming Republicans solely for the war. In fact, most like him would be more likely to blame Democrats like Kennedy and Johnson, but even that is too simple. It is blaming a system, one that makes it okay to murder millions of people with simplistic rationales like making the world safe or whatever feel good phrase lets you look in the mirror in the morning. Democrats and Republicans have largely supported such things, just differing on tactics. See Iraq and Afghanistan for more recent examples.

Right on!

"By your definition, the firebombs the rednecks hid in the Alabama church in the mid 60's wasn't too bad. It was just unfortunate that some young girls happened to be in the building at the time. Wrong! Willful and wonton planned destruction via firebombs IS terrorism."

Points if anyone remembers what famous woman went to a rememberance of that event decades later and said the girls who died had been friends of hers.

Nothing would make me happier than finding out this was some kind of electrical malfunction or whatever. I suspect that the "move forward with a criminal investigation of arson. (That's something less than a ruling that it was deliberately set, but a determination that it wasn't accidental.)" means experts suspect it was no accident and will do an investigation to find out for sure.

Yes, Sal, note the ROTC bombings above.

"But here's the question: Why do you automatically assume that because some of us believe that this may have been politically motivated, that we would not denounce similar actions, if perpetrated by the left? "

There are those of us who draw bright lines---certain behavior is never acceptable. Period. No difference between ELF, ROTC bombings, anti-abortion violence or anything else.

This is a good debate to be having out in the open.

http://www.absolutelyrics.com/lyrics/view/the_beatles/revolution/

We all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don't you know that you can count me out

Do you think the Kari, who started all this, would have been equally outraged if the building set on fire was the Chamber of Commerce? If not, why not? What about you?

t.a., I understand your fine line demarcation. I just disagree with it. Perhaps if one of Tre Arrows "targets" had been in your town, as one was in mine you would view ELF's actions differently. By your definition, had there been a timber worker of other employee in one of the targeted facilities it would default to terror by happenstance?

Sorry, we will remain in disagreement on this one.

Sal,

1. "I don't see any "outrage" in Kari's post. It strikes me as a straight report of something that happened."

You are right. I made an unwarranted assumption. I should have said “move to post…” or the like. The question still stands on its own, but I should be more careful.

2)”What does it say about you that you would believe that any person of good conscience would not respond with outrage at an act of violence, regardless of whom it was perpetrated against?”

You are wrong. You made an unwarranted assumption about what I believe.

What does that say about you?

The wingnuts have been spouting hate against the SEIU and unions in general for years; it was inevitable that some nut case would turn words into actions. Of course the wingnut bloggers and pundits will cluck their tongues and "deplore" this action ... and then resume spewing their venom.

"Willful and wonton planned destruction via firebombs IS terrorism."

I enjoy wontons and I deplore any planned destruction of them, by firebombs, firearms or any other means.

Sal,

I would hope he would be. You assumed motives, again. I just asked the question. Nothing more. We all read into things and reflect something back. That was the point.

I am sure we are all good people. Now off to watch the game.

Surprise your friends: burn their houses down! The Oregon League of Arsonists needs your help!

@ LT "Points if anyone remembers what famous woman went to a rememberance of that event decades later and said the girls who died had been friends of hers."

That would be the Sec. of State (Nat. Security Advisor in the first term) in the Bush administration, Condoleeza Rice.

For me it's become a truism that the capacity of the human being for self deception is nearly limitless. And the more righteous, the more deceptive, to the point that some among us claim the right to bomb, murder, maim, burn, destroy and instill fear for the sake of our ideas. And that is not the exclusive property of the right or the left. It is a self deceptive arrogance that any of us is capable of. M. Scott Peck described evil as "malignant narcissism." Anyone who thinks they need to commit violence to promote their ideas or make a statement,and that includes destruction of property, is a malignant narcissist. Such evil is lacking in any principle or beauty, it is simply as Hannah Arendt said in her treatise on the roots of totalitarianism, the banality of evil.

You people just live to speculate and argue in speculation, don't you? Jesus christ! I've seen NO fact here yet. Nothing. Just noise. Jeez!

Kari, this entire thread is a conjecture-fest. It's empty. NOt the fact that YOU posted, preliminarily, to let us know what is coming up. The fact of where it has gone, like clockwork - that is objectionably vapid.

Just ignore Puking Dawg and don't feed this moronic thrash.

It will be of interest once you can bring us some facts, some findings. And its' nice to be sensitized to know what to watch for.

Just ignore Puking Dawg and don't feed this moronic thrash.

One day a young Dakota boy went up to the chief and asked, "how do you decide on the names you give people"? He answered, "well, I look to nature, as I did with your father 'Strutting Stag'" "But, why do you ask, 'Puking Dawg'"?

So is this "Ten Bears" or "... [whatever] Dog" or maybe that long-gone phantom of grinning, stonily focused Civiletti attack dog? :)...

So nice you did not choose a Cherokee boy, or a "Sioux" boy. Dakota is a little more... academic. By a hair.

And: common use names might come from an observed environment, but True Names only come in ceremony, in spirit. :)

True Names only come in ceremony, in spirit. :)

I think "Puking Dawg" has that in spades.

Ten Somethings: hehehehehe... Hee hee snorf. Heh.

:)... yup.

In order for anything to happen the culprit needs to be prosecuted under federal law like Tre.

In State court an Arson-2 (a non-residential building where no one was in danger of serious physical injury) carries a whopping 10-30 days jail (w/ 30% good time thx to the last legislature) + 18 months of probation. As a C Felony, Arson-2 can be expunged off record in a whole three years and the records sealed.

Just a quick question: do we even know there has been a crime yet? Anyone know if there's a topic here?

Thanks!

"Posted by: Jack Roberts | Nov 2, 2009 6:31:43 AM

We should all be outraged by acts of terrorism, which includes politically-motivated arson in all instances. A fire, once started, can create unanticipated dangers, including risks to the firefighters called to put it out.

This is something on which we should all agree. At the same time, we should wait for the evidence before assuming every case of arson is politically motivated--again, regardless of who is the victim.

Thank you, Jack.

Also, remember that the authorities haven't always been above board when it comes to these sorts of situations.

For instance, look what happened to Judi Bari and Darryl Cherney. The FBI tried very hard to paint Judi and Darryl as the bombers.

"or where it really belongs so we keep our society from collapsing into an anti-freedom state of fear" - TA Bonehead BO "intellectual"

The Democrat party is ANTI-FREEDOM. The democrat party is about taxing everything that does and doesn't move - as recently stated by leftwing progressive Hillary Clinton. The democrat party is about government regulation of everything. That's not freedom.

Stu, you do realize that the top marginal tax rate was over 90% throughout the administration of that notorious socialist, Dwight Eisenhower.

Don't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe that the party currently in majority in Salem and DC has a name with 10 letters in it.

"The Democrat party" was dreamed up as an insult by some people a few decades ago---either it was the best insult they could think of, or else they wanted to be called "the Republic party".

LT, maybe they should be the "Publican" party--they're a bunch of bar owners.

Or maybe the proper response is to add to their party's name, so it's the "Republican't" party.

But, in the final analysis, the proper response is to continue to be the adults and all it by it's real name, and let the folks in the G.O.P. expose themselves with their juvenile behavior.

In kindergarten, name-calling will get you sent to the corner. In the modern G.O.P. it will get you promoted.

Posted by: LT | Nov 3, 2009 10:17:50 AM

Don't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe that the party currently in majority in Salem and DC has a name with 10 letters in it.

"The Democrat party" was dreamed up as an insult by some people a few decades ago---either it was the best insult they could think of, or else they wanted to be called "the Republic party".

That was the dittohead assignment for the week. After a week of memorizing, "Roll with Rush", their assignment this week it to paste the words "Democrat Party" into every post. "Talk radio: the American Madrasah"!

If you sent the special ed. class to go live with Sean, what do you think you'd get? The disrespect is in BO subjecting its readers to spam because it won't got to validated IDs. Richard, the talking One Eyed Snake, and WunderBlunder, today as Stu, Who Sits in His Own Juices, are verbally challenged. Just like biters in pre-school.

Teacher Kari's advise is to just ignore the biters. Besides being an abrogagion of responsibility, that's just dumb, on the face of it.

I am surprised you fuck ups have blamed bu$h/chenney for the fire? Come on, put on your mao zedong uniforms and take to the streets!

I am surprised you fuck ups have blamed bu$h/chenney for the fire?

But we haven't.

But perhaps you're just a careless writer.

Not that far-fetched at a time when Big Labor is calling the shots in Washington while seeking to deflect populist anger away from it.

If this were true, Taft-Hartley would already have been repealed.

"Posted by: Jack Roberts | Nov 2, 2009 6:31:43 AM

We should all be outraged by

people who tell us what to be outraged about!

Hey everyone - specifically Mr. BarfHound:

I'd like to take a moment to remind you that the Tea-Partiers are not necessarily Republicans, per se. A great many of them apparently swing to the far and freaky fringes of the right. By organizing and promoting these proto-fascists, the GOP and Fox "News" seem to be playing with fire, perhaps literally.

Kari's article doesn't mention firebombs, suspects, or indictments. This is a fine whodunnit and only time and a thorough investigation will tell us what really happened down at the union hall.

<h2>What we do know for certain is that Portland's finest Socialist Fire Department did a wonderful job of preventing the Foster-Powell neighborhood from going up in flames. And even though I live 20 miles away, and was in no danger from the blaze, I am still glad that my tax dollars helped put out that fire.</h2>