LOTS of businesses are taxed as sub-chapter S corps, which passes profits through to personal income and are taxed at Oregon's very high tax rate (which the democrats want to make higher still.)

Thanks for that qualification, Kari. It never occured to me that God so loved Oregon that he gave us TWO Bob Tiernans.

No surprise. What little of the show I saw (can't stand watching Tiernan) made me wonder why he was there instead of a legislator.

Also made me glad Nolan was debating him rather than a chair of W & M. Buckley represents Medford, it would have been inconvenient whereas Nolan and Tiernan come from the Portland area.

And does anyone remember what vaguely came into my memory watching the show---that Rep. Tiernan was openly rude (like making a big show of throwing away prepared testimony) to one of the African American members of the legislature?

I suspect that stunt may have been the beginning of the end for Tiernan in elective public office. I still recall what Devlin said to a reporter after defeating Tiernan--something along the lines of saying "the voters decided they wanted civility from their state rep."

@Kari in re: In your view, what is the correct level of taxation for businesses and individuals?

Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government.

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It's funny, here I am a dittohead rightie but on conservative blogs I am a socialist librul. I must be doing something correct.

"We've already got the tax system you've always wanted."

Not quite if Oregon is second lowest. It is a good bet Tiernan wants zero taxes with Oregon at the lowest - with maybe government subsidies thrown in.

As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.

mp97303 quoth: "Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government."

The majority wants single payer health care.

The majority wants fully funded K-12 education.

But then, the majority also wants us out of Iraq and generally out of the American imperial project.

I guess it's a complicated question.

"The majority wants single payer health care."

Would you care to back up this little gem with some facts?

Old D: "A New York Times/CBS News poll released last week shows, yet again, that the majority of Americans support national health insurance.

The poll, which compares answers to the same questions from 30 years ago, finds that, “59% [of Americans] say the government should provide national health insurance, including 49% who say such insurance should cover all medical problems.”

Only 32% think that insurance should be left to private enterprise."

Sweet Jesus that took me almost 8 seconds on "the Google."

Oh, and your welcome.

"Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government."

MP, seems to me your ideology is not left or right but vague.

I'm guessing you wouldn't want to get into a discussion, say, of what Measure 5 did to the property taxes of those who moved into a home which had been sold several times since M. 5 passed vs. someone who has owned property (business or residential) since long before Measure 5?

Or whether the lines at cash registers in stores at Woodburn Outlet Mall indicate an argument for sales tax (well written with attention to detail) to have a revenue source from tourism.

You just want to debate talking points, not details.

The majority wants single payer health care.

The majority wants fully funded K-12 education.

Yes, and the majority doesn't want to pay for any of it. Nothing new under the sun here.

@Kari

Sorry Dude(Carla's word, not mine), I won't allow you to lump me in with anyone. The point of my statement is simple, not every community wants the same things from their government. I frankly don't care if the tax rate in Oregon is 9% or 18%. But if it is 18%, I damn sure want to see something for it. For 18%, the state better mow my yard and wash my dishes. I DON'T CARE IF GOVERNMENT IS BIG OR SMALL, I JUST WANT IT TO BE EFFICIENT WITH THE MONEY IT HAS.

@LT

Can you tell me where I have to go to sign up for these 'talking points' you all keep mentioning.

In re: M5 is a colossal cluster f***. It has screwed up the state from top to bottom. Specifically to your point of long-term owner vs. new owner, M5 bent the new owner over the white picket fence. When I lived in Chandler, AZ, as the housing bubble grew, the local gov'ts lowered the property tax rate to account for the rising property values. They still got more money, but the homeowners didn't get hammered over something they had no control over.

In re: I have supported a sales tax in some form for years. As long as it comes with a reduction in property and income rates, and some voter req'd increase mechanism, you have my vote and you always have.

@Jensen

You are correct about payroll taxes. The best thing you could do to stimulate hiring would be to raise the salary cap and lower the rate of FICA.

Your tax argument works for large corporations, but not the 90% of businesses in the US that employ 20 or fewer workers. The salary for the owners of many of these is the after-tax income. Sure, they could reduce their tax burden to $0 by hiring more workers, but then they would be homeless and you would have to support them.

Owners make decisions every year at budget time on what if any hiring they are going to do for the coming year. If you increase the tax burden on the base business income, then the owner IS less likely to hire more workers. If you raise the rate high enough, their only recourse is to lower their payroll burden so that they can maintain a profit margin that is warranted by the level of risk they have undertaken.

Bill Bodden:

As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.

Bob T:

Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán.

Bob Tiernan Portland

That's a hilarious picture you chose.

This guy Tiernan is a reptile, absolutely repulsive. One would think that a serious opposition party would have a leader, or at least a spokesperson, who could articulate an alternative vision, propose a strategy for achieving that vision, and explain, with facts and logic, why that vision is better than the opposition's. Instead, what we get are lies and distortions, anger, rudeness, and boorishness. The movers and shakers in the Repub party, who elected Tiernan, must be a socially isolated group, if they feel that this type of personality will attract "non believers".

A zero corporate tax rate, for taxes paid at the entity level,not the pass through level, would be ideal.

The goal is to maximize employment. More employees equals more payroll and personal income taxes.

Have we so soon forgotten what drove the development of the Pearl District? It was tax incentives that turned NW Portland from a wharehouse slum into a thriving economic scene. How much development would have occurred in the area now called the Pearl if we had raised taxes on the developers and those with a stake in building out The Pearl vs providing tax incentives?

Think of the additionl tax revenue, and boost to the economy, from creating a place like The Pearl where affluent types come in and settle.

Today's WSJ, in section "A", has a nice piece about tax rates in NJ.

"Bill Bodden:

As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.

Bob T:

Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán. "

Bill B:

If I had been serious, Bob, your assessment would have been valid. However, because I was merely taking a little dig at the other Bob Tiernan you were wrong. And uptight?

How is "Tighearnán" pronounced? I have learned that English language phonetics have little relationship to the Irish language. I was in Dublin last year and am looking forward to another visit. Great place.

"Oh, and I have a question for all the righties that are sure to show up here: In your view, what is the correct level of taxation for businesses and individuals? Either as a rate, or as a percentage of the economy? What's the right number? (Or, do you believe the right number is zero?)"

Kari, How freaking much is enough? The state budget has ballooned because it is tied percentage wise to economic growth, only it never goes BACK DOWN when things are in the shitter!! Biennium is what $46 BILLION? And it is going up 5%, and all we hear is the sky is falling?
Yes, all did benefit from a good economy in the past, but is that ANY justification for spending our asses off at state government?? Spending that can never go down? Programs that we all now HAVE to have? We probably pay an aggregate 50% plus with all taxes and fees now, so BACK TO YOU KARI, HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH? 75%?? When we have a system that guarantees 8% return regardless of actual fund performance and that also pays the highest retirements in the country, that system does NOT NEED ANY MORE MONEY. There is no one in PERS that deserves 108% of base pay, period, ever. So again, the whore of state and local governments is breaking us. If you think all the idiotic program spending is good government, then I hope you are around when it all goes south hard, and can be held accountable.

Bill Bodden:

As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.

Bob T:

Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán.

Bill Bodden:

If I had been serious, Bob, your assessment would have been valid. However, because I was merely taking a little dig at the other Bob Tiernan you were wrong. And uptight?

Bob T:

I don't care how unserious you were -- the thought was stupid.

Bill Bodden:

How is "Tighearnán" pronounced?

Bob T:

Same way (and it means "lord", of all things). Many or most Irish names (including names of towns) sound pretty much the same when spelled in Irish, since the English merely spelled them in English in ways to keep the same sound as much as they could. When the Irish started using the same alphabet, they dispensed with a few, like K (using the hard C instead, and never a C for the S sound), and W replaced with BH in some cases.

Interesting language - they don't have a word for "have", for example. If you have something, like a pen, for example, you'd say, "Tá peann agam" for "I have a pen", which is literally "There is a pen at me". And there's no word for "like", so if you want to say you like something, like music, you'd say, "Is maith liom ceol", or literally, "Music is good with me".

Bill Bodden:

I was in Dublin last year and am looking forward to another visit. Great place.

Bob T:

Yes it is -- wish I could have stayed more than a few days there but I was more interested in the Galway, Cork, and Cong areas for most of my trip. There's a 9th Century church ruin near Galway called Church of Tiernan, or Kiltiernan, that I needed to see, as well as the site of the ambush of Michael Collins near Cork. More Dublin next time.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Here is a very helpful summary that was passed on to me by a friend.

Hats off to Mary for sitting there and keeping her cool.