"There is no greater patriotic duty to my country than to write this check, as far as I'm concerned."

I understand the sentiment, and after the last 30 years of government bashing from Ronnie Raygun on it's refreshing, but I think this carries things a bit -- ok, a lot -- too far.

Paying taxes and voting are the absolute minimum, the least, not the most, we should be doing. If we buy into the idea that paying taxes is the epitome of citizenship ("no greater patriotic duty") then we've essentially equated democracy with passive consumption of a service.

The problem with celebrating taxpaying (as opposed to the good things that can only be obtained through taxes) is that there is an awful lot of terribly stupid, counterproductive taxation -- taxation that helps undermine the very things we claim to want more of (jobs and investment, for example). Likewise, most of our taxes at the federal level are going to support a bloated military complex and imperial outposts in 170 countries. Should we celebrate the hundreds of billions that have been squandered on Star Wars foolishness? Or the trillions we've committed on destroying Iraq and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis? Your taxes (and mine) have done all that.

So let's recognize that taxes are the fuel of government. When government is good, taxes made that possible. And when government is evil, taxes made that possible too.

Most of the day, I have spent in the fetal position, sobbing.

The "Civilized Society" you seem to love just murdered 3 African sailors. The United States Navy does not seem to have any problem blowing up, destroying and killing dis-enfranished black Afican's so they can now have a reason to exploit their people and oil. I am sick and tired of reading how the "White" ruling class uses the full-force of several US Navy vessels to slaughter black africans.

Carla, I am a fan of yours, but there is nothing Civil about the US of A.

As Reverand White would say, "GOD DAMN America".

Great stuff. Paying taxes is no fun, and we should appreciate everyone who does it.

Paying my share of the tab for a civilized society

But was it your "fair share?"

Carla, is it possible for a person to be over taxed?

Fred

Not if they are "rich"

What is "Rich"?

Fred

You think it is patriotic because someone else is paying the greater share of taxation. 15 percent pay 85 percent of taxes. Someone who pays taxes on $24,000 a year, pays nothing compared to a $100,000 a year wage earner.

Clay S. If I take your comments at face value I must call absolute BULLSHIT on your ridiculous diatribe. The three pirates killed by US Seal Team members WERE NOT mere sailors. They were armed terrorist thugs who boarded an unarmed vessel on the open seas, taking it and the crew hostage under threat of violence. They were not disenfranchised - they were armed terrorists created by the ruling war lord class of Somalia.

Our Naval forces were protecting a merchant ship that was involved in humanitarian relief; carrying tons of food items (for free) to African nations; whose cargo and crew was boarded by force. Far from exploiting the people or oil; this country was providing aid.

The Naval forces were not in "full force", there was one Seal Team of about 8 members. We did not slaughter black Africans, we executed armed terrorists who were holding a US citizen by armed force against his will.

Clay S, your ignorance is only exceeded by your naivete. GOD DAMN you and your Rev White.

Who cares what the rest of the country feels about taxes. We live in Oregon. What does the polls say about Oregon taxes. Do Oregonians feel we are taxed enough? What is "Rich" in Oregon?

A new gallup Poll released today finds 61% of Americans saying they regard income taxes they have to pay this year as fair. There has been little change in this measure in 6 years.

These polls always strike me as kinda funny. Like when they poll on congress and it gets 19% but when the same people are asked about THEIR representative, they always score really high.

I would be curious to see the results of a questions along the lines of "do your neighbors pay enough in taxes?" I bet the overwhelming answer would be no.

What's the old adage about life's certainties? Death & taxes? I can accept both, the latter to the tune of $8,317.00 this year. No, I'm not getting rich either. Curious what Carla's gross 2008 tax burden might be but apparently she did not see fit to disclose.

Clay's off topic, off the wall comment could only be one of two things: amateurish drive by trolling or an indymedia regular off the reservation.

So why not pay more taxes so we can have an even better society? THink of how much better you'd feel.

Kevin at what point does a person become wealthy? Is there anything preventing a wealthy person from paying more taxes if they want to?

Yes, step one is we pay taxes for a civilized society. The second step is monitoring how those monies are spent, defining criteria and measuring success towards those goals. It's the black hole money pit that doesn't ever answer those questions that leads people to rebel against taxes. It's not that they are shirking responsibility. I've lived in societies were people were cheaper than here, and they paid more taxes, because they could see it was working.

@ Steve Novick: Alas, you have fallen for the budget smoke and mirrors, counting only DoD spending as the military budget. That leaves out, to name just a few:

--- that most of the foreign aid funneled through the state department is military "aid" -- i.e., credits to buy US made weapons systems

--- that we don't even have a real department of energy in this country ... 80% of the USDOE budget is for bombmaking and 100% of the USDOE EM budget is for cleaning up places like Hanford (cleaning up bombmaking messes)

--- the roughly $50 billion in the "black budget" for the CIA and the many billions given to the US NRO for military spy satellites

--- the spending for the US Dept. of Veterans Affairs (which is going to be spending billions caring for people with traumatic brain injuries from the AfPak party)

An honest accounting of total federal spending that did away with the meaningless distinctions like those noted above shows that we spend the MAJORITY of discretionary federal dollars (after debt service -- most of which was incurred for war spending, Medicare, and Social Security) on the military.

paulie says: Gallup stated that Americans view of their income taxes is as positive as at anytime in the last 60 years.

Not surprising given the percentage of 'taxpayers' (approaching 40%!) paying zero net income taxes is at an all-time high. If this trend continues, half the 'taxpayers' will soon enjoy the privileges of 'representation without taxation'...

Steve Novick:

A Fox poll in 2005 showed that by 71% to 12% Americans are more concerned about how their taxes are spent than the amount of taxes they pay ...

Bob T:

But then, very few actually pay attention to how it's spent.

The government is screwing us over in how it's spent, much of it to help them get re-elected and keep gravy trains running for favored constituencies.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Kevin:

To roughly paraphrase the moral of several of Jesus' parables in the New Testament: "to whom much has been given, much is expected."

Bob T:

Yet your wealthy Lefty friend (real or imagined) needed it to be taken by force, instead of giving much of it away like Rockefeller or Carnegie did. There's a difference as some see it. Some hate the idea of it being voluntarily given away, and like to force the individual to pay. That's not very civilized.

By the way, I don't think Holmes would consider it civilized to tax us so that some money can go to millionaire basketball players like Scotty Pippin as an agricultural subsidy, or to ag corporations, or to an artist so she can smear herself with faux shit in front of a small audience and make a living out of it.

I like to single out such subsidies because they are a prime example of how we are being ripped off by crooks from both parties, all under the guise of "governing". Thomas Sowell put it this way: Agricultural subsidies have persisted long past those [hard] times because they developed an organized constituency which threatened to create political trouble if these subsidies and controls were removed or even reduced.

Bob Tiernan Portland

The wingnuts don't object to taxes, as long as someone else is paying them, and of course they have enough money to buy their AK-47s and Uzis.

Long gone are the days of pragmatic spending and fiscal responsibility, no matter what the Obama Administration try's to name their budget.

Pippen, Sam Donaldson, etc. the list goes on and on with regard to subsidies for people and entities who live off the taxpayers. Now International Paper, received $71M from the IRS in tax credits last year?

Progressives, Dems and Repubs are peddling a drug named government to the masses under the guise of citizenship and civility.

Perhaps if the government created a value for a civilized society OWH would have a point, but it doesn't so his quote is a relic of a bygone era

carla,

you make me sick to my stomach.

pay your fair share hahahaha

i think you havent really seen govt waste at its best

you are just one of many idiots who willingly hand over money to the all great all knowing govt because you stupidely think the govt knows best.

reality check. govt is ran by people probably stupider than you....yeah i know its surprising but its true.

KURT: "Clay S. If I take your comments at face value I must call absolute BULLSHIT on your ridiculous diatribe. "

You racist, ignorant, pompous JERK! I, unlike you, don't revel at the deaths of black africans! I wish Carol would chime in on this thread, I cannot believe I am the only Progressive willing to stand up to the won-ton killing of blacks by a mostly white US Navy. You want BULLSHIT? Look in the mirror Jerkoff.

I have come up with a tax plan that we could use to pay off the national debt. The plans are in the form of 5 year plans!

5 year plan #1

Nationalize all banks, credit unions, and put them under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with Barney Frank as Credit Zar. Increase interest to 15 percent. All proceeds from mortgages would go to Government. Confiscate all guns! Close all universities, and burn all books. purge the military officer corps including General Petraeus so he does not have a chance to run for president in 2012.

5 year plan #2

Nationalize all forms of transportation and manufacturing

Nationalize all forms of health care

Nationalize all forms of energy!

Purge the government of all conservatives! (night of the Long Knives)

5 year plan #3

Nationalize all forms of land ownership, including farms, and ranches. Set up a form of collectivization and pay the remaining farm overseeres a set price on all farm products. Set up regional concentration camps for Farmers I mean Cossacks that attempt to sell on the black market. Provide illegal aliens citizenship or comradeship if they enlist in the Obama Brownshirts or Fedayeen Obama. Use these newly acquired citizens for secret police type operations and kill off all Red State Cossack farmers.

All proceeds from the proletariat would go to the welfare state and reducing the national debt to zero by, let me see, 2024.

Then the next set of 5 year plans could be for massive armaments buildup. But first we must sign a non- agression pact with China and............

Bill R:

The wingnuts don't object to taxes, as long as someone else is paying them

Bob T:

This must be a companion quote with "progressives like taxing the rich, so long as they themselves are exempt", as with Ariana Huffington and her $500 tax bill a few years ago.

Bob Tiernan Portland

I am thoroughly impressed that you have found a way to be proud to pay taxes. Taxes you'd be imprisoned for not paying. Taxes which pay for the bombs that kill Afghani & Iraqi civilians. Taxes which buy bullets for killing drug dealers. Taxes used to imprison millions of nonviolent offenders. And taxes which force low-income families out of their homes to make room for malls, condos, and resorts. Good for you for obeying the law and avoiding incarceration. If only there were millions of taxpayers with the courage to do what you do.

You are wrong.

"Clay S. If I take your comments at face value I must call absolute BULLSHIT on your ridiculous diatribe. "

You racist, ignorant, pompous JERK! I, unlike you, don't revel at the deaths of black africans! I wish Carol would chime in on this thread, I cannot believe I am the only Progressive willing to stand up to the won-ton killing of blacks by a mostly white US Navy. You want BULLSHIT? Look in the mirror Jerkoff.

Clay: I don't believe getting down in the gutter to trade slurs is progressive. I would suggest the truth lies somewhere between your and Kurt's position. I have some sympathy for your position because I recognize there have been some injustices inflicted on the Somalis such as foreign fleets plundering their sea resources and others dumping toxic wastes in their waters. You Are Being Lied to About Pirates. I understand the initial piracy attacks were against foreign fishing boats to discourage them from harvesting fish in Somali waters.

However, the preceding doesn't justify taking of innocent hostages and putting their lives at risk. Whenever violence is escalated people are put in an untenable position, such as having to decide whether to risk allowing an innocent person or persons to be killed or executing the person or persons who could potentially do the killing. In this case, I suspect it could have been resolved without anyone being killed. I'm skeptical of the story propagated by the Navy, but I don't know all the circumstances, and the people responsible for these executions will have to live with their decisions - and their conscience, if they have one.

By the way, I believe your "won-ton killings" should be "wanton killings."

As for the real topic of this thread, I believe we should all pay our fair share of taxes - on a progressive scale - but we should also object to taxes that are wasted or squandered in a fraudulent manner. We should agree to pay what is beneficial for our society but oppose collection and expenditure of tax money that is unethical and immoral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a6YdNmK77k

Bob T:

Yet your wealthy Lefty friend (real or imagined) needed it to be taken by force

Kevin:

Bob, what part of "government of the people, by the people, for the people" (President Lincoln) do you find the most offensive?

Bob T:

Here's the rest of that sentence which you clipped: "...instead of giving much of it away like Rockefeller or Carnegie did."

Don't bring up the We the People stuff on me. My point here is that your friend (real or imagined) can easily give mega-bucks to charity if there was no income tax or a very low rate. Apparently he won't show his thanks for being wealthy unless there's the threat of jailtime and fines by government for not paying his taxes. I'm not impressed. That's like saying, "I won't murder anyone or steal because it's against the law". I'd feel better if one won't do those things because they infringe on others and are thus wrong. No Ten Commandments are needed.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Bill, thanks, but I'll wage my own arguments. I don't need your assistance in dealing with an acolyte of Ward Churchill and the Rev. Wright. I appreciate the gesture however.

Clay, you are without a doubt one of the most clueless imbeciles I've run across in a long time. I'm certain my tax dollars helped educate you well beyond your intelligence and comprehension.

First, I'm no racist. Have you ever led efforts to integrate a fomerly all white managment team of a major corporation? Did you ever be the first to hire women and minorities into nontraditional high paying union positions? Have you ever actually set up work programs to transition traditional farm laborers into manufacturing jobs? Well, I have sluggo, so pipe down.

I'll bet you I'm the only one on this site who has ever dealth with terrorist hijackings and hostage situations. I am certain that you have not. I never stooped to "revel in the death of black africans" as you so poetically put it. Like I said, I have experience in this arena and you don't. I did note that armed terrorists holding loaded weapons to the heads of non-combatants deserve what the get. In this case it was kill shots to the head and well deserved.

Several years ago I had 4 employees kidnapped in the night while working in the jungle of South America. They were taken at gunpoint along with 3 employees from 2 other countries. Then, the FARC terrorists marched my employees around the jungle for 144 days, telling them several times each day that the hostages would be shot first should the military attempt a rescue. I got to deal with the children, wives, mothers and fathers woundering and hoping that their sons, brothers, fathers and husbands would come home safely. My employees did, but only after the terrorists brutally murdered one of the other hostages.

I am against piracy, hostage taking and terrorist activities Clay, it matters not the skin color or nationality of the perpetrators of these heinous acts. conversely, skin color and nationality are not acceptable excuses for this type behavior either.

So, continue in your warm living room or Wi-Fi cafe sipping your all soooo important latte. Just leave the heavy lifting of these discussions to the real adults.

Bill, thanks, but I'll wage my own arguments. I don't need your assistance in dealing with an acolyte of Ward Churchill and the Rev. Wright. I appreciate the gesture however.

Clay, you are without a doubt one of the most clueless imbeciles I've run across in a long time. I'm certain my tax dollars helped educate you well beyond your intelligence and comprehension.

First, I'm no racist. Have you ever led efforts to integrate a fomerly all white managment team of a major corporation? Did you ever be the first to hire women and minorities into nontraditional high paying union positions? Have you ever actually set up work programs to transition traditional farm laborers into manufacturing jobs? Well, I have sluggo, so pipe down.

I'll bet you I'm the only one on this site who has ever dealth with terrorist hijackings and hostage situations. I am certain that you have not. I never stooped to "revel in the death of black africans" as you so poetically put it. Like I said, I have experience in this arena and you don't. I did note that armed terrorists holding loaded weapons to the heads of non-combatants deserve what the get. In this case it was kill shots to the head and well deserved.

Several years ago I had 4 employees kidnapped in the night while working in the jungle of South America. They were taken at gunpoint along with 3 employees from 2 other countries. Then, the FARC terrorists marched my employees around the jungle for 144 days, telling them several times each day that the hostages would be shot first should the military attempt a rescue. I got to deal with the children, wives, mothers and fathers woundering and hoping that their sons, brothers, fathers and husbands would come home safely. My employees did, but only after the terrorists brutally murdered one of the other hostages.

I am against piracy, hostage taking and terrorist activities Clay, it matters not the skin color or nationality of the perpetrators of these heinous acts. conversely, skin color and nationality are not acceptable excuses for this type behavior either.

So, continue in your warm living room or Wi-Fi cafe sipping your all soooo important latte. Just leave the heavy lifting of these discussions to the real adults.

Bill, thanks, but I'll wage my own arguments. I don't need your assistance in dealing with an acolyte of Ward Churchill and the Rev. Wright. I appreciate the gesture however.

Clay, you are without a doubt one of the most clueless imbeciles I've run across in a long time. I'm certain my tax dollars helped educate you well beyond your intelligence and comprehension.

First, I'm no racist. Have you ever led efforts to integrate a fomerly all white managment team of a major corporation? Did you ever be the first to hire women and minorities into nontraditional high paying union positions? Have you ever actually set up work programs to transition traditional farm laborers into manufacturing jobs? Well, I have sluggo, so pipe down.

I'll bet you I'm the only one on this site who has ever dealth with terrorist hijackings and hostage situations. I am certain that you have not. I never stooped to "revel in the death of black africans" as you so poetically put it. Like I said, I have experience in this arena and you don't. I did note that armed terrorists holding loaded weapons to the heads of non-combatants deserve what the get. In this case it was kill shots to the head and well deserved.

Several years ago I had 4 employees kidnapped in the night while working in the jungle of South America. They were taken at gunpoint along with 3 employees from 2 other countries. Then, the FARC terrorists marched my employees around the jungle for 144 days, telling them several times each day that the hostages would be shot first should the military attempt a rescue. I got to deal with the children, wives, mothers and fathers woundering and hoping that their sons, brothers, fathers and husbands would come home safely. My employees did, but only after the terrorists brutally murdered one of the other hostages.

I am against piracy, hostage taking and terrorist activities Clay, it matters not the skin color or nationality of the perpetrators of these heinous acts. conversely, skin color and nationality are not acceptable excuses for this type behavior either.

So, continue in your warm living room or Wi-Fi cafe sipping your all soooo important latte. Just leave the heavy lifting of these discussions to the real adults.

Bill, thanks, but I'll wage my own arguments. I don't need your assistance in dealing with an acolyte of Ward Churchill and the Rev. Wright. I appreciate the gesture however.

Kurt: Thanks are not necessary. My point was not to defend your position but to make my own that I believed lay between Clay's and yours.

No worries! I appreciate your other insoght.

Carla Axtman:

Yeah..we tried a system like that--it was called The Articles of Confederation.

Founders scrapped it.

Bob T:

Your reply makes no sense. What I described was hardly the "way it was" under the Articles of Confederation. I'm still trying to get an answer to my question regarding why the real or imagined wealthy friend of so-and-so needs an IRS and a high tax rate to "re-pay" his country when he could do so by giving loads to charity. Where the Articles of Confederation come in I have no idea.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Bob T:

Your reply makes no sense. What I described was hardly the "way it was" under the Articles of Confederation.

Carla:

Yeah..it kinda was. It was about individuals and states giving money to run the federal government if they felt like it--essentially like choosing to give to a charity.

And it was a complete and utter failure.

Bob T:

That's not what my question was about. But to address your point, the failure was not a lack of taxes but a structure that was too fractured. If the central government had less to do tha it later had by 1789, that wasn't because of lack of funds. Besides, you threw in that part about money "to run the federal government". I have no problem with seeing funding to run the government, but too much of what it does has nothing at all to do with governing.

Bob Tiernan Portland

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