Carla, apparently you do not get subtle hints so I'll be blunt. You lose a great deal of credibiility by labelling the events "Tea Bag Events". Use of this vernacular is a deliberate attempt to dehumanize and belittle. by doing so you sink to the level of those you oppose on so many subjects. I know you didn't coin the term, but the use is beneath you.

On several levels regarding the events I agree with you. The huge publicity is pushed by those no longer in power; however, there have been tax day protests for decades. I would look closer at the nature of the protest to ascertain a common theme if there is one. Some no lessor comentators than Jeff Golden and Steve Novick suggests that there are common themes.

The protests are less about paying taxes or raising taxes than about wise and efficient expenditure of tax dollars. Some examples from all sides:

1. The war in Iraq spending
2. Sending little foster kids out of the country to die at the hands of blood relatives
3. The Metro debacle in Portland that ended up purchasing a now defunct rail car producer
4. The OHSU tram
5. Huge cost over runs at both the North and south Medford interchanges by ODOT
6. The multi-million (failed) computer system upgrade by the state about 5 years ago
7. Giving state services to illegal immigrants
8. Farm subsidies to corporate farms 9 Bailouts for AIG, CIT, Wells Fargo, etc 10 Unfunded liabilities in PERS
9. Illicit diversion of Education Rainy Day funds (as reported her on BO)
10. The DHS over spending debacle of 2005-2007
11. The 2007 legislature and Gov K increaseing state spending by over $1.8 Billion
12. Underfunding OSP
13. No Child Left Behind

I deliberatley tried to represent both extremes here, but many are opposed to wasteful and inefficnet government spending. Perhaps that is where the story is rather than minimalizing the message by coining gross po culture sland and blaming the losing side in the last national elections.

Of course I could be totally wrong as well. Peace.

Up until the last few years I have done tax protests annually. In many of those years I handed out literature calling for a reduction in U.S. troops abroad.

This is not something new. It is just that a few big shots have got their names in the news because of it.

Carla, Nice try but you are wrong on so many levels. Normal folk see what is coming. They were in oregon city across from CCC last wednesday. Did you attend an event? I saw my friends and neighbors. I saw folks who were against the Bush spending, against the AIG bailout, against the 189 million dollar bull crap Oregon Stimulus baloney. PERS folk are getting their 8% GUARANTEED return, even though their investments are off 40% just like mine. And now today we see more, folks like you are going to tax the freaking air we breathe all for the Global Warming Gods. Does your family finance plan call for increased spending in these times? I suppose it would if you were a govt worker, you can't tell there is an economic slowdown can you? We all know stuff if broke. The govt takeover of significant segments of the economy will never work, it never has, unless your only goal is to reduce the current standard of living. I suppose you are another Obama apologist for our wealth? Oh wait, you would call it greed. Well, it only works when people are responsible for themselves, and they can be confident that their hard work will pay off for them, NOT YOUR GOVT. I was pissed at the Bush spending and I am pissed now. Get out and speak to a few of the super right wing republicans or even gasp a christian or two. You will find that the only partisan you see is the one in the mirror in the am.

I strongly encourage all of you Progressives to send in a little extra cash this year to your beloved government.

Write a check for $50, $100, or even $250 and send it to the government you love so much. They will put that money to good use.

Also, I'd like to see some government fund raisers put together, bake sales a such - grass roots efforts. The funds raised can then be sent to the government.

You people talk the talk of big govenment, now send in the $$$money our government needs!

Carla, There is a great deal of anger out there. I think the bank bailouts have really touched a nerve with regular, work-a-day folks.

That being said, you are dead right. The Republicans have hitched their wagon to this populist pony, because they have nothing else! They really are devoid of ideas right now. FOX and their ilk are thrilled to death to promote these tea parties, as it is the only sign of life from the right.

Of course, as progressives, we clearly see the partisan problem with all this: Republicans didn't say boo about GWB's profligate spending. It's quite hypocritical that they start screaming a few months into Obama's term.

RE: "tea bagging"
Use this term EVERY single time. Republicans, in a crass, childish move, starting calling it the "Democrat Party" a few years ago because their focus groups told them that people were turned off by the term. And they soon discovered that it got under our skin. Now we've found a term that pushes their buttons! Turn-about is fair play.

A lot of vitriol here. Whew.

Of course this was a partisan event. It's ok to admit it.

Let's be honest here - people that identify with the majority party feel represented because their side "won." Unless something they consider egregious is happening, they use the established channels to express their concerns (like talking to representatives).

People that identify with a political minority don't feel like they have access to those established channels, so they try to get their message out the best way they know how - by shouting. So regardless of whether your message is "no Iraq war" or "socialism is teh bad," a political minority uses whatever perceived outlets are bound to be different.

This one was a little different, though, because the political minority had national network support and well-paid staff support across the country. I guess those grops are feeling shut out too, and need to shout nationwide.

:

Now we've found a term that pushes their buttons! Turn-about is fair play.

Bob T:

Yeah, but where's the change in that? Why don't you just out-adult them?

Bob Tiernan Portland

Planet Carla (Earth to Carla),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhSYbRiYwTY

You cant use the NAZIs to compare to Obama. NAZIs were extreme racists. Although Carla's new book might be called:

Mein Kampf für große Regierung

A better title might be:

Работники Орегон соединяют

Weiße Republikaner nicht hier

Unlike many of you, I have experience in Socialist Countries. While in Norway in 1992, I had to spend $30.00 for lunch. The Raindeer dinner was $38.00 while the seal meat was $30.00. Both were scattered with small portions of frozen vegetables. A bottle of beer was $12.00. The seal meat was very very gross!

Weiße Republikaner für liniting Besteuerung sind Skinheads

Yawn. I haven't been to any of these "Tea Parties", and don't see myself doing so anytime in the near future. But maybe I can offer a few hints, since Carla seems to be of the opinion that there are no possible ripostes to her rhetorical thrusts.

If these are (were) nonpartisan events that aren't tied with hate groups, why are there Nazi/Hitler images as so many of them, trying to tie Obama to it?

For the same reason virtually every high-profile anti-war protest was full of hardcore Marxists and, to a lesser extent "frag your officers" and "we are all Hizb'allah now!" types: there are a lot of crazy people out there, and such people tend to be attracted to street protests because the media at such events are always on the lookout for extremists to make headlines.

Were anti-war protests "astroturf" because they were organized and promoted by ANSWER and MoveOn, the latter of which is the beneficiary of Soros money?

Of course not. Some people were certainly there because they were told to be, but most were either there on the strength of their convictions or were simply curious.

I suspect the same is true about these "Tea Party" protests.

Finally, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'd be extremely cautious about complaining about Nazi references, if I were you, given that "Bush = Hitler" was the left's refrain for the last eight years. History didn't begin on January 20th and many of us have long enough memories to recall that swastikas were to be found nearly anywhere there was a protest against "American imperialism" and crude photoshops of Bush with a Hitler mustache weren't particularly uncommon either.

Or, to cop one of your favorite rhetorical tricks, I didn't see you complaining about Nazi references back then, so clearly your indignation with them now is totally disingenuous. Right?

Why are the only people speaking or high profile...right-wing Republicans?

I'm not sure that there's empirical evidence to prove this. I mean, it makes a certain amount of sense that left-wing progressive statists who support Obama's agenda won't be attending or taking the stage, but just claiming that every single speaker at every single event nationwide was a "high profile Republican" doesn't necessarily make it true, regardless of what you're reading on HuffPo and Oliver Willis.

If spending and government debt are really so egregious and bad, where were all these protests during the Bush years?

As has been pointed out elsewhere, fiscal conservatives, CATO, and other sorts of non-GOP conservatives were complaining about the Republicans' out-of-control spending for almost the entirety of the Bush Administration.

Conversely, many of the liberals and progressives who complained about spending during the Bush years have suddenly changed their tune as of January 20th.

Guess it all depends on who's doing the spending.

Face it: this IS about left and right. This IS about teams and winning/losing. These protests were not about fundamental principles of government, taxes and spending.

Okay Carla. If you say so.

There's simply no other reasonable explanation.

I think that line only really flies with progressive die-hards. Other people generally have an easier time identifying causes and phenomena that fall outside the framework of dogma. Or, to put it another way, just because you don't get it doesn't mean it doesn't have a rational explanation outside of those you can envision.

I do find it curious, however, that "progressives" are spending so much time and effort trying to discredit something they absolutely insist has utterly no base of popular support whatsoever. It all rather smacks of "say it enough times and maybe it'll become true."

The Tigard Tualatin School District is projecting 20% staffing cuts for the next biennium. Other districts will soon follow suit. At a time when business and political leaders cite our need for a 21st Cent. educational system we are declining into the dark ages. There is a constitutional and legal requirement for citizens to provide an adequate public education for our children. There is no constitutional requirement to provide a school based athletic program to provide community sports entertainment and a farm system for collegiate and professional sports. Before a single teacher is cut, school athletic programs should become club sports and funded soley from private sources. The time is long past due when school sports programs should be privatized and the burden relieved from citizen tax payers.

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

I may write a book soon: I will call it

Mein Halluzinationen

Common themes are on thing, but I'ld like to roll the tape back a year or 2 and see what the same folks were saying a year or 2 ago. Were they protesting big government spending back then?

More importantly, what were these folks saying to those who worried about tax cuts driving up the deficit? Or about how Larry Lindsay was treated when he warned how much the Iraq War would cost before he left the Bush Administration? Turned out he was right. Do these protesters against the cost of the war admit that?

Were there people at these rallies who were not involved in Measure 30, given that the event at the state capitol had a big professionally made sign listing sponsors including CSE PAC and FreedomWorks?

If you don't like big spending, what would you cut?

Recent newsletter from Sen. Jason Atkinson (nice man whose politics I disagree with much of the time) said,

"On Wednesday, Senator Atkinson spoke at the Tea Party at the Capitol about the need for smaller government, lower taxes, and eliminating frivolous government spending."

Only 2 paragraphs later, he says,

"Also on Wednesday, Senator Atkinson testified before the Joint Ways and Means Subcommittee on Public Safety on the need for keeping the Rogue Valley Youth Correctional Facility located in Grants Pass open. In its current form, House Bill 5051 cuts the funding appropriated to the Oregon Youth Authority from previous amounts, and the current plan is to close down the Grants Pass facility. "

Folks, there are only 2 ways to balance the budget--increase in revenue or spending cuts. No gimmicks can change that reality.

There are those of us who remember Ballot Measures 28 and 30 and the sorts of folks who were at the Capitol tea party were the sorts of folks who were vocal on those issues---vote their way and nothing bad would happen. They got their way. There were drastic cuts. Are they trying to pretend that didn't happen?

One could easily be registered outside of a major party (as I was for 6 out of the last 15 years), have been a supporter of certain Republicans back decades ago, and not like what the anti-taxers have been saying. If they are so angry, they should put that anger into action. Go to those Ways and Means hearings as they do their road trip and express your positive ideas on what must be done. Talk to your legislator.

But folks, it takes a certain dollar amount to run each day of the legislature. The legislature cannot go home without a balanced budget. Legislators across the spectrum are talking about a mixture of cuts and revenue increases with maybe some completely different ways of doing things if they can accomplish that blanaced budget. They know things just get nasty as a session stretches into July and August.

So now that the tax day rallies have happened, let's see some constructive ideas and action. If you don't have an answer to the budget and think you would like to change our elected officials, find someone you believe in and help them start a campaign.

But please be aware that the most successful candidates are generally those with positive vision and concrete ideas who are willing to answer questions in town hall style formats open to all voters.

We recently had a school board forum locally where there were 4 candidates running for 2 diff. seats. They answered a range of questions, some on controversial issues. Afterwards, some people who watched the forum talked among themselves and ranked the candidates on how well they answered the questions and on their general presentation.

To me, that is the guide to who would make the best elected official, not the messages from rallies like these.

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

It is too easy to see which part of teabagging Mr. Pinhead plays. He really sucks.

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

Off-topic comment deleted. --Editor

Are "normal folks" the same as "real Americans?"

Yeah, but where's the change in that? Why don't you just out-adult them?

Conservatives for years have been saying how morally superior they are to "libruls," so why don't you guys lead by example for a change.

mp97303: Conservatives? Hardly that. Eisenhower was a conservative, These people are extreme extremists. In fact they are very liberal in their extremism. Here I mean liberal as in "She poured on a liberal amount of slop, flooding the pigs, the piglets, the sty, the barn and the farm."

Golpe says: This one was a little different, though, because the political minority had national network support and well-paid staff support across the country.

And the nearly 24/7 anti-Bush protests that started even before he took office followed by the anti-Iraq War protests (Anyone remember Cindy Sheehan here?) by the political minority through most of Bush's 2 terms DIDN'T have national network support (MSNBC most blatantly but other networks certainly provided biased/sympathetic coverage...) and well-paid staff support across the country (e.g., MoveOn.org)?

'A little different' from what? Give me a break...

In retrospect, what could possibly be said of the The Great Tax Day Tantrum by Those Pissed Off Because Their Party Didn’t Get to Cheat Their Way Into the Executive Office a Third Time?

Uhhmmm… nothing.

Nope. Not partisan. The people I know protested the initial bailout and when our Senator didn't listen, we voted him out. (Sorry Greg. Shoulda listened). The bailout in the last administration was the last straw for many of us. I actually think Obama will do just fine, but he will continue what all politicians do: line the pockets of his friends and fellow politicians. And who will be stuck with the bill? Us.

And yes, the Republicans hitched their wagon to this idea because they have nothing else. This from a former Republican who doesn't want to be a Democrat either. I'm just sick of huge government.

I do agree with the idea of having those who love this administration to send in extra money. Odds are they won't. It's all rhetoric for most people.

Peace out!

Or about how Larry Lindsay was treated when he warned how much the Iraq War would cost before he left the Bush Administration? Turned out he was right. Do these protesters against the cost of the war admit that?

Larry Lindsey got the chop because his estimate was well over what the Bush and neocon propagandists were touting, but Lindsey was still well under the real figure. If I recall correctly Lindsey said the war would cost $100 or $200 billion. We are already well over that and Joseph Stiglitz has projected a final cost of $2 to $3 TRILLION when we add in the expenditures for taking care of the surviving vets.

I would like to know how many of these "tea-baggers" opposed that war and are against Obama's Vietnamistan?

"Before a single teacher is cut, school athletic programs should become club sports and funded soley from private sources. The time is long past due when school sports programs should be privatized and the burden relieved from citizen tax payers." Bill R was last pick in PE. Loser

I'm with Ten Bears. Rename the Media Mosh-Outs as he has suggested.

Good one TB.

pacnwjay:

Now we've found a term that pushes their buttons! Turn-about is fair play.

Bob T:

Yeah, but where's the change in that? Why don't you just out-adult them?

mp97303:

Conservatives for years have been saying how morally superior they are to "libruls," so why don't you guys lead by example for a change.

Bob T:

What does that have to do with you engaging in hot-button name-calling just because they do it? You missed the point. Oh well, if tit-for-tat's your thing, go ahead and be childish like they are. I gave you a chance, and you came back with, "But Jimmy did it, too!". Go wipe your nose.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

Off-topic comment deleted. --Editor

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

No Bob, as usual, you missed the point. I want conservatives to START acting like the people the have for years CLAIMED to be, better than liberals.

What we have seen since 1/20/09 is that conservatives are every bit the whiny little bitches(and I mean female dogs, not the pejorative for women) that liberals have been for the last 8 years. Both sides need to grow up and act your ages for once.

@ Meg "Bill R was last pick in PE. Loser"

Actually I began playing varsity sports as a freshman and lettered in all four sports. But that isn't relevant in this discussion. Is that the best you can come up with?

Off-topic comment deleted--Editor

You could just block Brodhead's IP, you know.

It was obviously partisan - but there's no sense arguing with the guy.

(Yawn.)

JDW - it is not BO policy to block people. You might find yourself blocked sometimes too. As much as there are those who drag the tenor down with their absurdities, their venom or their inability to speak more than one primary hobbyhorse no matter the topic, well, heck: they backlight the real thinkers who wander in and treat folks to unpredictable eruditions, delightful absurdities of intelligence too.

The bottom line on the Tea Parties is that they hurt, rather than help, the Republican cause. Yet most Republicans can't see this. As the party reduces down to its nutty kernel, the rhetoric and "marketing" become less and less appealing to the general public. I wouldn't be surprised, as we live in interesting times, to see the Republican party literally disappear as a national party after the 2010 elections, going the route of the Whigs. The Democrats may fracture into liberal and centrist groupings, or actual new parties.

I am sort of from the 'Daily Show' view of things; These people have been out of power for what, all of two months and they are pouring into the streets to start a revolution against a democratically elected and popular President? WTF?

Conservatives have turned into the America-hating protesting hippie rabble they always jeered!

Zombies! They must of all turned into Zombies. It's the only answer that makes sense.

Face it: this IS about left and right. This IS about teams and winning/losing. These protests were not about fundamental principles of government, taxes and spending. They were pushed, organized and promoted by those who want the GOP to win elections. There's simply no other reasonable explanation.

non sequitor:(nahn sek [as in heck]-kwit-her) n. Latin for "it does not follow." The term usually means that a conclusion does not logically follow from the facts or law, stated: "That's a non sequitur."

Sadly Carla, Kari, too much of the blogosphere, and virtually every NW "journalist" I've come across recently have become walking, talking, egotistical non sequitors: Egotists who simply make assertions with no apparent intellectual understanding or capability of developing a line of argument.

A partisan fight over power IS an argument over fundamental principles of government. It's pretty much the ultimate tautology of social interaction.

Unfortunately what we are seeing now is that one incompetent, ignorant mob was pushed out of power in a naked show of electoral force that had nothing to do with a reasoned debate over the theory of governance, but another incompetent, ignorant, egotistical mob. Right now, the Democrats in DC and statehouses across the country are showing it pretty much was all winning for the sake of winning and not much else.

I happened to come across this list of legislative red alerts by the ACLU which speaks volumes about just how regressive, insubstantial, and grasping the agenda of the Democratic majority in Salem is:

http://www.aclu-or.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Leg_2009

Add to that a couple of key provisions (not all) of HB 2599 which do significant bullying violence to the First Amendment and you have a picture of an Oregon legislature composed of incompetent spoiled brats who mainly are about fighting over power to make sure the ignorant selfish spoiled brats they represent get their way over the ignorant selfish spoiled brats the other guy represents. The most hilarious thing is how the warning from those who do make serious arguments fundamental principles of government, taxes and spending. before the election to the selfish ignoramuses leading organized labor (not the rank-and-file) before the election that the group of purely self-concerned Democrats they smugly said they were buying wouldn't stay bought is being shown true at the state and national level.

Sorry Carla, virtually none of what you argue, or those you defend, are about honorable arguments over genuine fundamental principles of government, taxes and spending.

I would love to hear the feelings of any teabagger in re: their responsibilities to fund the war on terror and the needs of the returning vets whose medical needs are going to be a long-term very costly process.

rw--Sorry, you are wrong: Blue Oregon has been known to block specific IP addresses. This has certainly been done--and EXPLICITLY NOTED BY KARI CHISHOLM--in the case of people engaged in sock-puppetry. Ask him if you don't believe me.

These protests were not about fundamental principles of government, taxes and spending. They were pushed, organized and promoted by those who want the GOP to win elections. There's simply no other reasonable explanation.

Carla, I'm a registered Democrat with Libertarian tendencies. I voted neither McCain nor Obama. Along with the Dems, the GOP is part of the problem. It's not left vs right, it is us vs. them. As our elite class of non-representing representatives gathers and passes panicked spending bill after panicked spending bill, enslaving generations of unrepresented future Americans to the yoke of debt and an existence of some as yet defined serfdom, what kind of people are we to stand by and let it happen? I have three children, one of which is a two-year old little boy. The turning point for me came one night as he slept next to me, peacefully, I realized that he was going to be paying just the interest service on this debt the rest of his life, a piece of his productivity, his liberty, was taken and, it was beyond his control -- he didn't get a vote; What kind of father would I be if I didn't defend the interest of my children? I wish I'd had the thought sooner, I wish I'd had it when President Bush and Congress pushed through TARP 1 but, I didn't. You know yourself, you personally can't borrow your way out of debt, it will catch up to you -- how is it any different when the public sector does it? Really. It's not rocket science.

Take care and God bless,

Geoff

Carla, I agree with Kurt's concern about using the terms "tea bag" and the related term, "teabagging." The term used by the organizers is Tea Parties, and that's what we should use. Doesn't indicate any more or less respect or support for them, but it also doesn't imply something derogatory that isn't deserved.

To the substance of it--they're wasting their time, in addition to media attention that could be used elsewhere. I strongly agree with anyone who is concerned about excessive spending and excessive taxing. The biggest concern, and it doesn't take a genius to see it, is spending huge amounts of public money without raising the funds to support it. Some level of deficits may be acceptable and even useful, but things are getting ridiculous now. Bush spent too much and taxed too little, and Obama is in the process of spending humongous amounts with no discernible way of paying for it.

These silly tea parties aren't going to solve anything. We need to elect political condidates who promise fiscal responsibility, then hold their feet to the fire.

Actually I began playing varsity sports as a freshman and lettered in all four sports. But that isn't relevant in this discussion.

Actually, it is.

Who paid for your ability to letter in all 4 sports for 4 years? Did your parents shell out $3,000 - $5,000 per sport per year for your participation?

Or did the taxpayers?

So your assertion is that every "spontaneous" Tea Party protest is actually being orchestrated from Bethesda?

Do you have any direct proof of this, of any kind? Given that not a single news agency has, to my knowledge, reported anything of the sort, I think you might be poised for a major scoop.

Or has the anti-Tea Party crowd entered into "conspiracy by a shady cabal of wealthy financiers" territory? Just like... connect the dots, man!

Do you folks have anything important to discuss? Perhaps it would be a good time to turn your attention back to matters requiring action so as to positively affect real life? While you natter back and forth in the most inane fashion, legislation continues to wend thru working groups, riders are being added onto otherwise sane and useful concept bases... and you are up here sitting on your thumbs and blowing kisses.

Please please PLEASE go back to talking about the BUSINESS of politics instead of politics.

Just a quickie, here.

While true that the deficit was reduced tremendously during the Clinton administration, it's not true that there was a surplus at the end--the National Debt increased by 0.3% in Clinton's last year.

Yes, it's true that's minuscule, but it's still a deficit and not a surplus.

rw - Do you folks have anything important to discuss?. Unfortunately rw, no they don't. As you've seen, the Blue Oregon proprietors don't really have a serious thought in their head or the ability to present a well-reasoned argument. They are primarily political flaks trying to make sure their power-hungry guys get elected, just like those on the right they spend most of their time criticizing.

Tom Carter - From this comment by Carla: I reject these premises, frankly. you see a typical example of what rw is lamenting (although he or she may not realize just who has nothing important to discuss). Carla clearly doesn't know what a "premise" actually is, but that's probably because she like several of the chief bloggers her don't demonstrate they know what a deductive argument with premises, non-fallacious reasoning, and a conclusion is. They just throw out talking points, with phraseology that sounds like they think means something. Except that the very words they use don't even have the meaning they seem to think, given the context in which they use them. Hence rw's lament.

As I read your point, you stated your characterization of the facts. There was an implicature there, intended or not, and a kind of interrogative rumination, but that's about it. Carla may have chosen to claim (misunderstood seems more likely) you are making an argument, but if she wanted to assume that she didn't come close to the process in argumentation of deductively demonstrating your characterization is actually contradictory to the facts. Sometimes when someone is rejecting someone else's viewpoint, they are just being egotistical and look insubstantial for doing it.

Now, if she has said she rejects your accusations she might have signaled she was going to offer an interesting and perceptive rebuttal instead of talking points.

Bottom line is that rw and Tom Carter point to how Democrats are desperately flailing right now with the primary goal of just hanging on to power for power's sake. Has anybody paid attention to the schemers crawling out of the woodwork for stimulus money that they will drag back down their personal rat hole with them, creating precious few jobs that we need right now, and that were the goal of the stimulus? They aren't even throwing it back into education for the children they expect to pay for this by restoring the Draconian cuts proposed for K-12 and public higher education in the next biennium. It almost seems these people really just see this as their chance to get part of the booty after the financial markets got their cut from our broken down leaders.

Of course, we Democrats should have knew that was going to happen when, before the 2006 and certainly before the 2008 election, they smugly told us they weren't going to do anything to stop what brought us to this point. They were going to just stand by and let Republicans dig us into this hole because that improved their own election chances and doing the right thing to stop it would just harm their chances. Plus it would just plain be hard work they don't care to do. Go down the list of state and national elected leaders from Oregon and you'll find just a precious few exceptions.

Have any of you leninists who call half of America White racists given the government any more money yet? Paying taxes is Patriotic! Are you blogging unemployed Marxists willing to be Patriotic? We pay $4000 a month in Taxation. Would you like us to pay $8000 so you can sit on your ass and blog about other people paying your taxes or is it. Or do you support the Merkley /Rangel tax plan? Taxation only applies to white racists! Is that on topic enough for ya?

"Bottom line is that rw and Tom Carter point to how Democrats are desperately flailing right now with the primary goal of just hanging on to power for power's sake."

Bwwwwaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

Wingnuts have been the Captain of the USS Titanic for the past eight years with control of ALL branches of government and once they hit the iceberg and destroyed the ship, all they can do is sit on their thumbs and blame the life rafts.

What a sad little group they have become.

Uh Scott in Damascus, you couldn't be more wrong in your understanding of what was said, who was saying it, and why. But you are fine example of the problem.

mp97303 re: their responsibilities to fund the war on terror and the needs of the returning vets whose medical needs are going to be a long-term very costly process.

Sure, I'll take a stab at answering this.

How to fund it? Well, let's start by trying to return government to it's constitutional limits. Yes, the Constitution. That quaint old document that has been shat upon by most politicians lately, no matter what party they are from.

The cost of the war on terror is far less than the cost of an attack on our nation. It took several years for the economy to recover from us being attacked in 2001. However, since you can not empirically measure lost productivity and revenue, it is hard to show the justification in a budget.

Veterans care should be funded. Way before government (you and me) funding of bank's guarantees, insurance companies and home mortgages. Especially before getting involved with mortgages signed by people who apparently didn't read the contract. Or their 'irrational exuberance' led them to believe that investments and houses can only go up in value so a 'interest only' loan would be OK.

Take a realistic look at Social Security. The retirement age has to be indexed to reflect longer life spans. GW Bush at least tried to take on this issue. I keep hearing Republicans have no plan to offer. So, Democrats, what is your plan for Social Security since you were successful in killing SS reform 3 years ago? And if your plan is to tax even more, forget it. That would be the same old plan that didn't ever work before.

We can save lots of money by having government construction be done by truly competitive bids with actual market wages instead of higher than market government-mandated wages. Doing what several states, cities and private industries have done in letting internal workers competitively bid against private companies. This includes schools. I keep hearing from Dems why this won't work, but it always comes down to protecting their campaign contributors. Government jobs shouldn't be a sinecure. In the real world if a business division doesn't make enough profit compared to the expense or energy it is eliminated. If a government entity has lost its original purpose, it is funded at current levels and allowed to seek out other justifications for its existence.

That is just a few quick ideas.

Oh, and TorridJoe, let me see if I understand this: Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks are GOP creations because they are conservative, but MoveOn is just an honest grassroots organization with no connection to the Democratic party? Right. What flavor is that Kool-Aid?

People mock what they don't understand and I have heard a lot of mocking on this board about the Tea Party demonstrations. As a conservative, I hope your lack of understanding continues; but as an intellectual I cannot resist an opportunity for an op ed.

Brodhead--consider these:

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. --Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. --Ambrose Bierce

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober." --Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how passionately I hate them! --Albert Einstein

There are two Americas. One is the America of Lincoln and Adlai Stevenson; the other is the America of Teddy Roosevelt and the modern superpatriots. One is generous and humane, the other narrowly egotistical; one is self-critical, the other self-righteous; one is sensible, the other romantic; one is good-humored, the other solemn; one is inquiring, the other pontificating; one is moderate, the other filled with passionate intensity; one is judicious and the other arrogant in the use of great power. --J. William Fulbright, The Arrogance of Power (1966)

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. --George Bernard Shaw

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice — and always has been. --Mark Twain

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who loves his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair. --H.L. Mencken

The cost of the war on terror is far less than the cost of an attack on our nation. It took several years for the economy to recover from us being attacked in 2001.

Do you have data to support this claim?

The costs for the so-called Global War on Terror (GWOT) have never been totaled as far as I know, and whatever the total to date may be it will very likely prove be miniscule by comparison in the future. Just take one area. The precarious position that Pakistan is now in because of the "GWOT." If Pakistan collapses the costs will be astronomical and beyond comprehension from various angles. The way this so-called GWOT is being waged seems to be creating more enemies than friends.

I think this says all the needs to be said about the moral bankruptcy of many in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party who actively support or passively condone by their silence:

Power, humiliation and torture http://warincontext.org/2009/04/19/editorial-power-humiliation-and-torture/

And frankly KenRay, your cheap simulacrum of conservatism is nothing but a vacuous mirror of the empty progressivism here.

Now, now. Let's leave namecalling on the schoolyard.............

Except for Teabaggers are what Populism looks like and a couple others, blueoregon has become a dialogue between Right and Far Right. I look forward to dancing on both your graves.