Does Spending More on Education Improve Academic Achievement?

According to this study, the answer would be no. In fact, cities that spend significantly less than Portland, have better results.

For those unwilling to click, a summary:

The evidence about education spending and achievement leads to the following important lessons:

American spending on public K–12 education is at an all-time high and is still rising. Polls show that many people believe that a lack of resources is a primary problem facing public schools. Yet spending on American K–12 public education is at an all-time high. Approximately $9,300 is spent per pupil. Real spending per stu dent has increased by 23.5 percent over the past decade and by 49 percent over the past 20 years.

Continuous spending increases have not corresponded with equal improvement in American performance. Long-term measures of American students' academic achievement, such as long-term NAEP reading scale scores and high school graduation rates, show that the performance of American students has not improved dramatically in recent decades, despite substantial spending increases. The lack of a correlation between long-term education spending and performance does not suggest that resources are not a factor in academic perfor mance, but it does suggest that simply increas ing spending is unlikely to improve educational performance.

Increasing federal funding on education has not been followed by similar gains in student achievement. Federal spending on elementary and secondary education has also increased sig nificantly in recent decades. Since 1985, real fed eral spending on K–12 education has increased by 138 percent. On a per-student basis, federal spending on K–12 education has tripled since 1970. Yet, long-term measures of American stu dents' academic achievement have not seen similar increases. Long-term test scores among specific student populations, including ethnic minorities that have been a main focus of federal education policy, have improved some. How ever, the achievement gaps among white, black, and Hispanic students persist in test scores and graduation rates.

Education reform efforts should focus on improving resource allocation. Instead of sim ply increasing funding, efforts to improve educa tion should focus on improving resource allocation. Chart 5 compares high graduation rates and per-student expenditures in the nation's 50 largest cities. In many cities, spending per stu dent exceeds $10,000 per year, yet graduation rates are below 50 percent. For example, in Detroit, per-student spending is approximately $11,100 per year, yet only 25 percent of Detroit's students are graduating from high school accord­ing to a recent estimate.[21] In these communities and across the country, policymakers should focus on reforming policies and resource alloca tion to improve student achievement.

Hey, why don't you and Sam hop on the MAX and look at Hillsboro. THey have Intel's 15,000 jobs, Genentech, IDT, SolarWorld and Radisys - and those are just the biggest employers. They have property taxes from the 1000s of employees that live in town and Oregon benefits from the income taxes. There are 15,000 less families on welfare in Wash county. THere is a new baseball stadium, several new city buildings, good schools and paved streets.

GO back to Portland and look at 1% of the high-tech jobs, potholes and lousy schools.

Lets not forget the $85M Sam and Randy are throwing at Paulson Jr. so about 15,000 crazies can watch 15 soccer games a year. IF they really think they are smarter than Paulson and will make money on this deal, I can only remind them of how Glickman Jr and Gardiner totally bamboozled Vera and they were idiots.

What was your point again?

"then he ought to put his money where his mouth is and restore Intel’s proud place at the top of the heap among Oregon corporate income taxpayers."

One more thing, Intel pays for employee education thru tuition reimbursement. I received my BS and MS courtesy of Intel.

WHy don't you check out your facts. Intel has done about 1000x what any politician has done for this state's educational system already.

How about spending it on developing a system where administrator salaries are tied to performance, and don't exceed max teachers' salaries?

Some for study, some for change, some for buy-out. We have to trim the fat.

Is Intel getting huge tax breaks in Oregon ? Maybe that is where the 100 million should go.

"admit that Oregon would be better off if Intel were paying the same level of taxed that it was paying in the mid- to late-1990s?"

Becasue they probably have 2x the number of employees as then and they are making 50% each then they did in the 90s. The effective net gain to Oregon is huge and Intel is a good employer like Sam Adams will never see in Portland.

If you want $100M in education funds, go ask Sam about the $85M he's throwing at Paulson just so he can gain some recall votes.

Riddle me this, mp97303:

If spending is irrelevant to the quality of an education, why does a year of high school at Catlin Gabel cost over $22,000?

Oh yeah here we go. BlueOregon, the champions of public education.

You'll not be happy till you match your brethren in Detroit where the drop out rate is 74%

Mean while your biggest source of money the OEA, teacher's union, is attacking to shut down the most progressive, green and sustainable school in Oregon. They've even made sure you stayed quiet about it.

$$$ and education:

Public schools must educate all students.

Private schools can be selective.

Not all schools are like OES and Catlin, charging $22K and higher. There are many other private schools that are considerably less - like Jesuit, and the many others in the Portland Metro area. The key difference is that almost all are selective - one must apply and get accepted based on some academic criteria.

I think the point of mp97303 is that money alone is not the solution.

While I am not an Intel employee, and never have been, I am one of those Washington County residents who works in the high tech industry. I also volunteered in the schools, and have first hand experience across all grade levels. There are many, many factors affecting the quality of education a student receives. This ranges from administrator and teacher influence, to the home situation of the student, to the community surrounding the school. Money cannot solve every problem with our schools.

Take a look at school spending in Washington DC as an example - highest spending per student in the US, and some of the lowest achievement rates.

I say take another look at our society as being more of an influence on the success of our education system. For the most part too many families simply do not value it - it is taken for granted. School is more about sports and social activities, or just daycare.

Our public schools also emphasize too much "one size fits all". In other countries, schools are much more competitive at the academic level (not sports), and students are rewarded for excelling. Many school placements must be earned.

Social promotion is the norm - students move from one grade to the next without regard to showing proficiency in basic courses. Grade inflation is the norm.

Many students do manage to truly excel despite this. But it is not because of money.

Will more money be the simple fix in Oregon?

Chuck is into a bit of speculation as to what Intel does or does not pay in taxes. This article seems to be more about what Intel should pay, rather than what it would take to address the issues in our schools today. How about identifying the problems and possible solutions, first, then figure out how to pay for these solutions.

Perhaps Sam and his cohorts could help with a solution.

Hey Patrick A

Give me the socio-economic background of CG students versus PPS. I am assuming based on the tuition rate we are not dealing with a school filled with poor inner city kids are we.

Google "socio economic status and education" and you have your answer. It wouldn't matter how little you spent educating the CG student body and they would still outperform the average PPS.

What would $100 million buy in pre-K through higher ed?

Based on empirical evidence, not a damn thing. Assuming you consider improved educational attainment the ultimate goal of spending.

Chart Here

Since 1970, spending per student has increased 128%(in constant dollars). Anyone want to guess how much student achievement has gone up? Anyone?

A. 100% B. 75% C. 25% D. 0%

The answer is.......D

Take a look at school spending in Washington DC as an example - highest spending per student in the US, and some of the lowest achievement rates.

Correlation does not prove causality. You will find the numbers that will support your beliefs. I would ask those who think taxes are too high, "what is the right/fair amount of taxes to pay?" Similarly, I would ask those who think more money would not help or improve OR schools, "how much money is the right amount to pay for public schools?"

The Oregon school year has been the shortened and is at risk of being shortened further. There has been talk of having teachers work w/o pay. Are these really the best way to resolve the budgetary shortfalls?

If anyone from Intel is willing to disclose how much the corporation pays in taxes, that would really move the conversation forward.

"how much money is the right amount to pay for public schools?"

This is such utter BS I want to puke. I don't give a rat's ass whether we spend $10 per student or $10,000,000. I want to see some RESULTS. There is nothing to show that spending 100x what we currently do will gain one iota of improvement.

I would assume that you want something for your money, don't you. Having a graduating class that can read and write at the 12th grade level is a nice starting place.

Okay mp, so you've made it clear you don't believe spending money will improve education quality "one iota". What do you suggest for improvement? Oh, and how do you measure improvement? Standardized test results? Percentage of college-bound seniors? It's easy to poke holes in others' suggestions. Can you provide any of your own?

"Because progressive Intel employees have a unique opportunity tonremind Mr Barrett that it is in Intel's best interest to help boost Oregon's k-12 system."

Maybe state employees should remind Teddy K that Intel employees take 10% paycuts during tough times to help keep job losses to a min. How much could we save if state employees were willing to forego 10% of their paycheck?

In addition, in the last biennium didn't education spending go up something like 20%? How much of that ended up in the classroom? Didn't Mr K say most of it went to benefits?

I also volunteer at PPS and I'd love to see what improvement OEA has made at public schools in the last 10, 20, 30 or 50 years in educating students. From what I see it is prety much what I saw in high school 30 years ago. Instead when someone tries to drag schools into the computer age like Oregon Connections Academy, then they try to shut them down.

tl (in sw) says: You (mp97303) will find the numbers that will support your beliefs and you've (mp97303) made it clear you don't believe spending money will improve education quality "one iota"

tl, these aren't 'beliefs' based on the Bible or some obscure religious text, they're facts based on a reality that has cyclically repeated now for decades. Just look at the amount of money colleges and universities spend providing remedial courses to get new high school 'graduates' up to where they're prepared to do college-level work. Is it any wonder it now takes many if not most students ~6.5 years to complete a bachelors degree? And you don't think colleges and universities charging ever higher tuition/fees are just happier than a pig in mud to be in on that gravy-train?

Someone above asked for suggestions - the first thing we need to do is get out of this mindset that improvements in education only come about from higher $ spending. Only then will people get serious about looking at/for other solutions.

Chuck, here is what I would do with an additional $100MM, in no particular order:

1. Expand internet based alternative schools K-12.
2. Endow Oregon Higher Ed in order to provide as close to no cost education to OR High School graduates who are legally in the country.
3. establish a High Tech curriculum for High School (read Friedman, The World is Flat)

Chuck says: Why is it that most of you assume that "education" means K-12? Barrett wants better higher ed, too. The problem, of course, is that he doesn't want to pay for it. And too many of you conveniently avoid talking about that.

Maybe because Barrett knows (and probably many of us here also know) that the absolute first necessary step in improving higher ed is to fix K-12. Besides the many other immediate basic benefits to society, that will free up some higher ed $ currently spent providing high school level courses and allow students to graduate and join the work force sooner.

Why do you assume any and all improvements in education can only come from us all giving yet more $ directly to government and the public education system?

I don't know exact $ numbers, but I know Intel donates a lot of money to education both directly and through sponsorships and other programs world-wide. Maybe Intel has decided they'd prefer to control how their $ for education are spent rather than giving them to a public education system that has consistently showed less bang for more buck going on for nearly 40 years.

Now that I think about it, if it is Intel's strategy to control more how their $ for education are spent, it would be just the kind of practical hard-headed data-driven approach Andy Grove would likely espouse.

Chuck, Senate Bill 476 would free $100 million to create better learning environments, significantly save schools energy costs in the long term and create over 4600 jobs. The bill is supported by Innovation Partners, a non-profit aimed at solving community problems like the classroom maintenance crisis with creative, sustainable solutions. Salem, OR ­– While more than 8 out of every 10 Oregon classrooms are considered substandard from years of unfunded maintenance needs, the Energy Trust of Oregon has grown from an original budget of $30 million in 2001 to $146 million today. Senate Bill 476 would redirect $100 million to pay for energy upgrades, renewable energy and conservation efforts for schools and local governments.“This is a question of priorities; what do we value most, energy conservation for classrooms or corporate give-aways?” said Senator Larry George (R-Sherwood), one of two chief sponsors of SB 476 along with Senator Betsy Johnson (D-Scappoose). “The unchecked growth in this program has left Oregon classrooms in the dust while big corporations can feed at the government trough.”

In 2001, the Energy Trust of Oregon was established by rule of the Public Utility Commission to oversee a portion of the 3% public purpose charge leveled on Oregon utility ratepayers. The self-appointed board at the Energy Trust of Oregon now hands out more than $120 million every two years in large part to high-priced consultants and out-of-state corporations while schools go without vital energy conservation dollars.

Chuck,

Do you realize that Intel and the Intel Foundation has matched dollar for dollar donations to schools - public and private?

Do you know that Intel has supported endowments at many colleges and universities?

Do you know that Intel sponsors internships for many of the Co-Op university and colleges?

As others have pointed out, did you know that Intel works with schools in the communities where it has facilities, providing them with equipment and subsidizing employee volunteer hours--providing the schools directly with $20/hr volunteered by the employee, while still paying the employee their normal pay?

Did you know that Intel has supported the local NorthWest Science Symposium for middle and high school students? And the International Science and Engineering Fair? Did you know that Intel funds several significant scholarships at these fairs?

Chuck, can you name any other large employers in Oregon who are so generous, and truly care about supporting education?

Chuck, just how much would be enough for a company to deserve your thanks for what they do for the community?

Intel is a successful company. This success comes from selecting the best and the brightest throughout the world. If an area can both produce and atract the best and the brightest, the company will succeed. More high paying employees will result in higher tax revenues from salaries and property taxes.

Make an area unattractive, and companies will set up shop elsewhere. Portland? Not likely. Eugene? Also not likely.

Intel was attracted to Oregon in the mid 70s for a variety of reasons, and now Oregon and the Portland Metro area can boast to hosting one of the largest concentrations of Intel employees and facilities.

Don't bite the hand that feeds the tax revenue coffers in Oregon.

By the way, all of Oregon benefits, not just Washington County. And as the other poster smartly said, perhaps Intel would rather direct its funding to the most effective areas, than to let it be used less effectively by well meaning bureaucrats.

Intel is not paying taxes in Oregon so they can invest hundreds of millions of dollars in plant, equipment, and money in China. Doesn't that make you feel better?

http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/processors/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207100482

Bill,

Intel has not abandoned Oregon. Or did you miss the announcement from a few weeks back?

Intel has already invested BILLIONS in Oregon, and will likely continue to do so.

You don't like China?

I thought everyone here was compassionate.

For follow-up, here is the article from OPB: Intel Investment Shows Commitment to Oregon

I hope you aren't upset that Arizona and New Mexico will also be sharing in this investment.

I find it interesting that the vociferous arguers against any more funding for public education 1) provide no suggestions for improving the quality of public education (they just repeat that spending money will not work), and 2) tout Intel's generous donations and matching funds to schools. Appears to be a bit of cognitive dissonance.

Alcatross suggests Only then(after stopping thinking that adding money will improve education) will people get serious about looking at/for other solutions.

I really want to know about other alternatives that work. I'm not being snarky. I am open to innovation and creative solutions as long as they benefit all, not just those who can afford it. I would suggest that people will get "serious" about "other solutions" when those solutions are proposed, debated, and backed up by evidence. I don't dispute that simply throwing money at schools will improve them. But I also don't agree that schools are living high and wide or on a "gravy train". Find me educators who got into teaching and/or are staying there "for the money" and you may change my mind.

Also, when does being a good employer and generous philanthropic organization preclude a corporation from paying its fair share of taxes? One argument against raising Intel's taxes is that there are so many Intel employees working and paying taxes. Following that line of reasoning, any large corporation could be exempt from taxes (GM, Walmart, Home Depot, you name it). Does that really make sense?

If it is true Intel paid only $10 (can anyone cite evidence pro or con, or did I miss a link?), is that fair or just - regardless of how you feel about current educational funding?

I find it ironic that all the bitter posters on this blog who are vehemently against funding for public education were, in fact, educated in those very same facilities.

At no cost to themselves.

The biggest factor in childrens' educational success are their parents. Obama touched on this in the campaign, but it is generally considered the third rail of politics.

Much easier to blame teachers, administrators, class size, school buildings, educational theories (which come and go). A pre-K ready to read program is critical for every child, how about ready for math? That must be complemented by community-based networks to ensure children's emotional health. These are community organizing projects, another Obama theme.

In France, expectant mothers are visited by home health workers to ensure prenatal health. That level of tracking and close engagement is needed for 0-K, for every child. This is akin to Secretary Clinton's "It takes a village". It should travel with the child when they move. Note too that the highest health care costs are complicated births and end of life, many of the former are preventable.

For a pop Friedmanesque analysis of why we need to get focused, rather than having the same pointless arguments, see the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o9nmUB2qls - Did You Know.

(Also note also at an expenditure of about $3 billion/year in 2010-11 for K-12, $100 million dedicated entirely would be a 3% increase. Math)

$100 million = 13 hours of war in Iraq.

Priorities.

Mr. Calhoun

Are you implying that Intel is engaged in the unlawful act of tax evasion?

High performance in school is not directly related to spending per student. Per the NEA, Oregon ranks roughly 20th in overall performance. MA, VT,MT,NH and SD rank #'s 1,2,4,7 and 8. Oregon spends $9469 per student. MA 13,768; VT 14,336; MT 9029; NH 11,447 and SD 8250.

As you can see, some spend more and others less. Many of you would say, lets spend what MA does so we can get better results. In exchange for spending 45% more, you will get a net gain in performance of 1.5%.

John,

I don't think anyone here is advocating for Intel to "not pay their fair share" of taxes.

Rather, the topic in the original article suggested that Intel was not.

Fair share is sometimes interpreted as "you need to pay more than you are paying" without identifying what is a reasonable level or why.

Should Intel or for that matter any company located in Oregon pay local and state taxes on the entire profit earned worldwide, or within the US, or within the state (if that can be determined)?

What is a fair share?

It's like defining who is rich - the generally accepted answer is one who is earning more than the other guy.

Respectfully,

PS Chuck, have you contacted Intel community affairs for an answer?

Mr. Calhoun

Given that you were a member of their financial management team, can you cite the IRS reg, or any accounting text for that matter, that defines "fair share"

Thanks

Is this a post about education or corporate greed? I see it as the latter, which tells you things need to change if we're going move forward as a society. That simple? Uh huh.

John Calhoun says: The debate is over the question of whether Intel's statements are hypocritical since they are asking the rest of society to pay for something for which they are not willing to pay their fair share.

What Intel statements are hypocritical? Barrett referenced 'a slouching education system that cannot be easily fixed...' It's you and others here at BO who are jumping to the conclusion that the only cure for what ails our education system is more money. Despite the fact ,the US spends over 3x as much on public education than the next highest nation (Japan) Yet most students from other developed (and even some undeveloped) nations run rings around the average US student in academic achievement - and then proceed to take their unfair share of our best skilled jobs.

It seems to me Intel IS putting a good deal of money behind Barrett's mouth here As I postulated before, perhaps they've decided they can direct some of their $ for education to yield a more effective return themselves than rely solely on a now very top-heavy public education system with no real record of recent success. There may not be 'educators' in teaching solely for the money - but I guarandamntee you there are 'educators' in school administration who are there for the money and benefits.

Chuck,

"Give the legislature reasons and permission to change our corporate tax code and to turn Intel and other profitable companies into good corporate citizens."

Chuck, You more than imply that Intel is not a good corporate citizen. Does that mean your solution is to make them unprofitable or just to punish them for not being "good corporate citizens" by your definition?

"So, BlueOregon readers, tell Craig Barrett what types of investments could be made in education if Intel started paying $100 million a budget period again. "

Instead, let's suggest ways that Oregon could spend its dollars for better results. Here are a few ways to start: 1. Take a hard look at sports in schools. Most everywhere in the world, outside the US, sports teams for youth and adults are clubs, not public money spent on "education." How much money could be saved if we privatized high school sports/college sports?
2. Merit pay. Since Unions are dead set against merit pay, our administrators have lost that tool. I think many teachers deserve far more than they are paid. Union rules don't allow that. I also think there are teachers who are hanging on by the thread of their Union support and should be fired. I would be very interested to learn what good Unions have done for the education of our kids. It would also be interesting to know what percentage of moneys collected by teacher's unions is given to education and how much is given to political causes 3. Tracking. Most successful education programs use tracking to identify strengths and weaknesses so they can address studies appropriately to individual students. In our politically correct society, we have to treat everyone the same. It is beyond stupid to think more damage is done by tracking students and giving them a good education rather than saving their fragile self esteem by not allowing them to be labeled slow or mentally gifted. 4. Vouchers. Let a market for results determine where the money goes. 5. The list goes on but it rarely needs an injection of dollars. What it (our education system) needs is fewer bureaucrats, less politics, and more competition.

I respect that you disagree with the way taxation is done in this state and that you are trying to change it. However, in my view, pointing the finger of blame at Intel is just using the old "class envy" tool to make your political point. It would be far more productive to merely initiate debate on those things we might do to improve the results of our state's education system.

Chuck

It seems your anger is misplaced. You should be going after the Pols who made this possible.

I would support listing how much each corporation in Oregon pays in taxes......and how much each individual pays in taxes. I want to know if my neighbor is paying their "fair share"

Let's implement a minimum tax on individuals as well and apply that to education funding. No taxable income is not the sole province of individuals.

"I really want to know about other alternatives that work. I'm not being snarky. "

OK, Oregon Connections Academy works great. The OEA is using some unrelated rules to shut it down like every charter school like any other successful charter school it goes after.

How about the OEA coming up with a success story on how to better education since none of us non-teachers know anything?

I would support listing how much each corporation in Oregon pays in taxes......and how much each individual pays in taxes. I want to know if my neighbor is paying their "fair share"

Wingnuts always place corporations and individuals as equals.

And there lies the problem.

Oh sweet bejesus where to start ....

How much money could be saved if we privatized high school sports/college sports?

Because only rich white kids should be allowed to participate in sports. For example, my daughter plays club volleyball and it cost about $5K a year. She is not the best nor the worst, but I can tell you most of her friends can't participate because of money.

Oh, and privatization has worked sooooo well for the military and FEMA we really need to explore that option further!!

I think many teachers deserve far more than they are paid. Union rules don't allow that.

Specifically, which rule?

Most successful education programs use tracking to identify strengths and weaknesses so they can address studies appropriately to individual students

Yeah, that program is called PRIVATE SCHOOL! Because once you strip out the money for aides, counselors, administrators, Head Start, and other programs tailored for the individual student you basically short change everybody.

<vouchers. let="" a="" market="" for="" results="" determine="" where="" the="" money="" goes.<="" i="">

Which voucher program do you want to discuss? Milwaukee, Cleveland, Houston, Miami, or another one of your choice? Because of of them, subjected to your "market results" theory resulted in massive fraud and waste without a single iota of improved test scores.

In short, when will you Enron free-market wingnuts figure out that education is not a for-profit venture?

Scott

you really should change that to dumbasscus

Thanks, Steve, for at least providing ONE suggestion. I wasn't able to find much about ORCA, but what little I found sounded OK. My questions are how accessible is it financially to all? What if you don't have a computer or internet access? I'd also be curious how well foreign language and science classes would work out without the direct face-to-face interaction and lab facilities.

I'm generally leery about charter schools and vouchers but want to keep an open mind. Does ORCA serve all, or, as in many private schools does it get to be selective (either by financial accessibility, self-selection, or outright selection criteria on the part of the school)?

-tl

Scott, Your response indicates more interest in calling folks names than discussing, civilly, the issues. Re sports: I believe that more children are involved in soccer and baseball as club sports than as school sports. I see church sponsored leagues where the coaches and officials are all volunteers. If your view of sports outside of school is your daughter's volleyball club, I think it would be helpful for you to open your mind to other out-of-school sports opportunities. Re Union Rules against merit pay: I probably misspoke. There probably is no written rule against merit pay. I would be interested to see an example of a Union signed contract with merit pay. My experience (on a school board and in a business) negotiating with unions, they would not sign anything that allowed merit pay, only pay based on seniority, training and certifications, and status (apprentice, journeyman, etc.). I had numerous experiences with the teacher's union protecting a bad teacher who should have been fired. Re Tracking and Vouchers: Tracking has been successful and has been used for as long as we have had public schools. In the old, one room school house, the teacher tracked each student and catered instruction to the student's needs. I will look for sites on the success of tracking since I have not been directly involved for 20 years. At that time, the evidence was overwhelming that tracking gave superior results. And the teachers did not have aides, extra administrators, or Head Start. My understanding is that the voucher system in Washington D.C., The Opportunity Scholarship Program, is oversubscribed and reportedly allowing children to achieve at a far higher level than in the Public Schools. The Florida voucher system has been praised for creating the competition that has improved the public schools. In spite of your claim to the contrary, the academic studies of the Milwaukee Voucher program that I have read conclude it has produced a positive result. Why, if " education is not a for-profit venture," does the education industry constantly advertise the economic value of a higher education? Education is for profit. That profit should be measured in the improvement of students and in the increase in their opportunities.

"My questions are how accessible is it financially to all? What if you don't have a computer or internet access?"

I am kind of hard-pressed to find someone without Internet acces since you cn walk to the library. OCA is a public school so no charge as far as I know.

My issue is we are teaching the same as we did 50-100 years. A lot of kids in the same room being taught at the same speed.

Well, each student is different and we still teach the one-size-fits-all method. OEA or the school systme has made zeor innovations for all of their education and refuses to change.

We just keep getting told there is not enough money (like there ever will be), therefore we can't suceed. SO we lose another 10, 20, 50 years worth of achievement for students.

Thanks, Steve for offering up an alternative. What little I found on ORCA looked pretty good. I have some questions: 1. What if you don't have a computer or internet service? 2. How well do students do in foreign language without the face-to-face interaction? 3. How well do students do in science classes (assuming they don't have a lab or lab equipment at home)?

I'm generally leery about charter school solutions but want to keep an open mind. It seems that so many charter schools appear to do well because they do not serve all students. Same goes for private schools. Any public solution should, IMHO, benefit ALL students, not just those who are able to apply/attend/etc. Not suggesting ORCA is exclusionary, I just haven't found any evidence to indicate either way. -tl

(sorry for the double post)

A couple simple changes I would suggest is to make the school day start later. Many studies show that growing kids learn better when they don't have to get up so early. And why the long summer break? Our school year and school day were developed during the time when many many kids needed to help out on the farm. Few of those conditions apply today.

TL

Your idea for eliminating summer breaks is a good one and one that not only would improve learning, but cost nothing. Implement year round school but keep the # of days the same.

"I work at a school that provides students the opportunity to learn at a professional technical center."

Ms Barnes - THank you for your efforts, trade training is something sorely needed since a HS diploma really doesn't qualify anyone for much of a job these days.

HOwever, I'd love to see OEA get behind something that allows students to be trained at their own speed. THis is why I was disappointed at OEAs opposition to the OCA. Not to pick on it, but it seemed a way for each student to go at his own pace and be challenged.

By saying nothing has changed in the past 50 years, this is what I meant. Almost every business has benefited from computer automation except schooling where we teach pretty much the same way for the past 100 years.