Paul Allen has has 20 years to develop the Rose Quarter. He deserves no place at this table now. They lied to Merritt Paulson, Randy Leonard and Sam Adams' faces about their level of support for this proposal.

The other thing to consider is that they're extending the deadline to let Vancouver and St. Louis get their business in order. Portland could be awarded a franchise this week and the other two are the ones with questions. Vancouver has stadium issues and need a permanent solution rather than the temporary solution they currently have.

Also the Anheuser-Busch help in St. Louis means bunk. It's a 6,000 seat stadium that can be upgraded to 10,000. Unless they jump on board financially with ownership their bid is dead.

Soccer sucks. I can't believe we're spending money on soccer!!!

"I've been seeing many more errors at both the Trib and the O. I'm guessing that they've been laying off copy editors"

Ottowa

wtf?

I respectively disagree about Vancouver being a lock for number 1, I think that is the Portland bid.

The Portland bid, which is due to be filed with MLS on the 16th per council documents, wasn't going to finalized even if the URD money was still included. MLS knew that district still had to be created and there was always a risk. We won't see the final deal until the 1st of September, and again MLS realized that. What they were looking for (and got) was a sign that Portland is indeed interested and willing to move into far more intense negotiations.

The Vancouver bid does indeed have deep pockets, but there is questions about the stadium. Right now they are proposing to play in BC place which is a very very large stadium, and it is unknown what the rental rate will be. The main owner up there, Greg Kerfoot, has been trying to build a privately owned stadium for years, and has been rebuked by the city and port of Vancouver, so there are worries there. Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, there is no TV deal with Canada right now, nor is there a major Canadian sponsor. The league doesn't gain much from a financial standpoint at the moment by expanding to Canada.

The St. Louis bid has problems with thier ownership group having deep enough pockets to sustain losses, which is the same reason they were passed over last time. The stadium is nice, but he won't have the money to upgrade it, and again the league wants owners that sustain losses if necessary.

For that reason, I think Portland will be announced the 19th (first game of the season, in Seattle), while giving the other ownership groups time to shore up thier bids/the league to continue to look for sponsors in Canada. If St. Louis strengthens the ownership group, they'll probably be announced in April/May, if not, it will be Vancouver.

Its also important to point out that the decision isn't made by the league office, but by the league's board of governors, which is made up of the original owners. These people want franchises/deals that make them money (since profits/losses are shared across the league), and Portland has the best ability to help these guys make more money.

Good showing out there by progressives (and their mayor) to stop this corporate-welfare scam. And you'll re-elect all three creeps next time around while saying, "It's all Paulson's fault". What's the matter -- afraid to be on the same side as the Cascade Policy Institute? You have nothing to say about "corporate welfare" any longer.

Bob Tiernan Mult Co

MLS is a perfect fit for Portland: It's a low outlay, build slowly business plan. The average ticket price is going to be half that of the Blazers, and if you're an Oregon-sized company contemplating a luxury box purchase, 25 or so soccer and PSU football games at PGE Park makes way more sense than 70 or so events at higher prices in the Rose Garden.

People greatly underestimate how much this will raise Portland's profile on an international basis.

Good showing out there by progressives (and their mayor) to stop this corporate-welfare scam. And you'll re-elect all three creeps next time around while saying, "It's all Paulson's fault". What's the matter -- afraid to be on the same side as the Cascade Policy Institute? You have nothing to say about "corporate welfare" any longer.

The last person in the state I would take voting advice from is the chair of the Oregon Republican Party.

What's done is done. Just live with it. If you don't like the outcome, find a lawyer. But since the majority who are against it can't afford a court date/lawyer to change what has happened, they are no threat to the outcome. If you are no threat, then you just need to keep quiet and live with it.

I'm a Rose-City-'Til-I-Die Timbers Army Faithful since 2001. Naturally, I'm giddy about bringing MLS to Portland. I appreciate Paulson picking up some the tab and helping protecting the City financially. I've never thought a new urban renewal district was a good idea. And playing "Let's make a deal" a day and a half before playing "Let's vote on it" isn't how the City that Works should work. I preferred the Lents site, in part, to avoid the complications with Paul Allen, Inc. But as a whole, the deal is a good one.

However, I have to question if hundreds of part-time, minimum wage jobs is "public benefit" using $88 million in public funds. The City and Paulson made no commitment to living wage jobs at the stadiums. The City's Fair Wage Policy (at present Park employees such as ushers and ticket sellers earn about $10.80 and hour under it) needs to cover all workers, including concessionaires, merchandisers and other employees of subcontractors. The City also subsidizes many of Paulson's employees at a cost of $150,000 a year. The subsidy should end.

I want to stand and chant for the MLS Timbers and catch a fly ball at new stadium. But I want the worker who sells me beer, peanuts and Cracker Jack to earn a living wage.

BTW Leonard, Adams and Paulson had all met with the Blazers, there was even an Oregonian article just last week talking about how a AAA stadium could fit in with the entertainment district they were proposing. Yesterday's testimony by the Blazers came out of left field, and was in my mind, a shakedown by Allen. Leonard and Adams both asked where these comments were coming from, as they had been supportive previously.

Paul Allen has has 20 years to develop the Rose Quarter. He deserves no place at this table now.

So when Paul Allen invests millions of his own money to build the Rose Garden (more than can be said for Little Lord Paulson who wants the public to pay for his stadiums), he should get no say about what the city does on land adjacent to it?

It would be a true shame if these stadium plans the soccer boosters are shoving down the city's throat were to drive the Trailblazers up to Seattle. It's no secret that Paul Allen is a Seattle guy, and Seattle now lacks an NBA franchise. Needlessly pissing off Paul Allen seems pretty dumb at this point. While there is a soccer rocks v. soccer sucks debate going on, pretty much everyone is on the Rip City bandwagon.

Though I'm opposed to the public building sports stadiums for millionaires (and billionaires), I can see why Allen would be annoyed that the city gave him the cold shoulder a few years back when he asked for public support for the Rose Garden and now Randy and Sam are falling all over themselves to give Little Lord Paulson money.

Anon I have to disagree with your statement that Paulson isn't paying his share. In fact, along with the guarentees and cost overruns that he is covering, he is paying up to 30% of the total construction costs, PLUS $40 million to get the MLS team in the form of a franchise fee.

If you look at the total amount that Paulson could have to pay, it could very well be MORE than Allen did, despite his stadiums costing less than half of the Rose Garden.

The point Garrett was making is that Allen has dragged his feet for years doing anything else in the RQ, and after initially supporting the stadium, tried to submarine it.

I typically don't support public ownership of teams, but I'll be honest, the terms of this deal are pretty favorable to the city, the city is unwilling to sell PGE and the MC site, so this is probably the best option for everyone involved. I will also say that it has alot better chance of becoming a positive for the city than many deals other cities are passing right now (the new LA and Dallas stadiums are perfect examples, over $1 billion in public financing!).

We would better serve the greater Portland Community if those "urban renewal" dollars were used to help the impoverished in the Portland Metro Area.

This is another reverse Robin Hood example of using "urban renewal" dollars seems to be more for attracting middle and upper-middle class Yuppies.

Then again, progressives will counter that using monies intended for the poor to attract the "haves" will result in more tax payer dollars for the city to reinvest in curbing "urban blight."

If history has shown us anything, I don't think that will be the case.

Mr T.:

What's the matter -- afraid to be on the same side as the Cascade Policy Institute? You have nothing to say about "corporate welfare" any longer.

No. Even a busted clock is right twice a day, Bob.

PS: By that, I'm not talking about us, just so you know.

PPS: Just because we agree here doesn't mean we're on the same side as the CPI.

PPPS: Corporate cupidity for my tax dollars vs. open scorn for the poor who don't get the dignity of expecting an economic safety net for their tax money still p*sses me right off. So don't give yourself (and the "think" tankers at CPI) too much credit.

The debate framed by Kari is about use of public funds, specifically URD moeny for this. No, raiding URD's for the flavor de jour government wish list should be stopped. Portland is only the most recent example of this excess. 2 years ago Medford did the same thing to allow Lithia Motors the ability to build a huge office tower downtown. Now fast forward to 2009 and no Lithia tower, perhaps no Lithia and an ongoing legacy of a failed Medford URD.

Zaggy has some good insight; but soccer is just like any other sport. Played by some, watched by some and not generally best at increasing employment and or inner city development.

MLS will agree to the Vancouver bid on opening day because their bid is better than Portland's. Vancouver is one leg of the old 3-legged PNW rivalry that goes back to the old NASL days. Accepting their bid also puts additional pressure on Portland to up the ante in the eyes of MLS. St. Louis has a huge fan base, but has never been able to sustain anything over indoor or USL status, so the pressure will be exerted by MLS to have Portland get their bid in order.

I'm glad Paulson wants to do the MLS deal. However, remember that the $40MM franchise purchase price is really his. If he chooses he can take that 440MM and the franchise and move it.

I had not thought about this deal encouraging Paul Allen to move the Blazers up to Seattle. That is an interesting twist to the plot.

The debate framed by Kari is about use of public funds, specifically URD moeny for this. No, raiding URD's for the flavor de jour government wish list should be stopped. Portland is only the most recent example of this excess. 2 years ago Medford did the same thing to allow Lithia Motors the ability to build a huge office tower downtown. Now fast forward to 2009 and no Lithia tower, perhaps no Lithia and an ongoing legacy of a failed Medford URD.

Zaggy has some good insight; but soccer is just like any other sport. Played by some, watched by some and not generally best at increasing employment and or inner city development.

MLS will agree to the Vancouver bid on opening day because their bid is better than Portland's. Vancouver is one leg of the old 3-legged PNW rivalry that goes back to the old NASL days. Accepting their bid also puts additional pressure on Portland to up the ante in the eyes of MLS. St. Louis has a huge fan base, but has never been able to sustain anything over indoor or USL status, so the pressure will be exerted by MLS to have Portland get their bid in order.

I'm glad Paulson wants to do the MLS deal. However, remember that the $40MM franchise purchase price is really his. If he chooses he can take that 440MM and the franchise and move it.

I had not thought about this deal encouraging Paul Allen to move the Blazers up to Seattle. That is an interesting twist to the plot.

The debate framed by Kari is about use of public funds, specifically URD moeny for this. No, raiding URD's for the flavor de jour government wish list should be stopped. Portland is only the most recent example of this excess. 2 years ago Medford did the same thing to allow Lithia Motors the ability to build a huge office tower downtown. Now fast forward to 2009 and no Lithia tower, perhaps no Lithia and an ongoing legacy of a failed Medford URD.

Zaggy has some good insight; but soccer is just like any other sport. Played by some, watched by some and not generally best at increasing employment and or inner city development.

MLS will agree to the Vancouver bid on opening day because their bid is better than Portland's. Vancouver is one leg of the old 3-legged PNW rivalry that goes back to the old NASL days. Accepting their bid also puts additional pressure on Portland to up the ante in the eyes of MLS. St. Louis has a huge fan base, but has never been able to sustain anything over indoor or USL status, so the pressure will be exerted by MLS to have Portland get their bid in order.

I'm glad Paulson wants to do the MLS deal. However, remember that the $40MM franchise purchase price is really his. If he chooses he can take that 440MM and the franchise and move it.

I had not thought about this deal encouraging Paul Allen to move the Blazers up to Seattle. That is an interesting twist to the plot.

more than can be said for Little Lord Paulson who wants the public to pay for his stadiums

I love how you can tell its a sycophant for failed journalist Jack Bogdanski right away.

drive the Trailblazers up to Seattle. It's no secret that Paul Allen is a Seattle guy, and Seattle now lacks an NBA franchise.

Won't happen. Paul Allen signed a 30 year, "exclusive site agreement," with the city that doesn't expire until 2023 and prohibits Allen or any other future owner from moving the team. Plenty of experts examined that when Allen was shaky about selling the team a few years ago and they said it was airtight. Seattle also needs a new stadium. I don't think Key Arena could be, "remodeled," again.

Furthermore I don't believe a word J.E. Isaacs said in that meeting yesterday. The Blazers had their 60th straight sellout last night, one of the lower payrolls in the league (Raef's contract is covered by insurance), and they say they're bleeding money? They're either lying or posturing.

All Allen wants to do is build a strip mall around the Rose Garden. Go look at his plans. Strip mall.

With the 5th worst unemployment in the nation, and the resultant increases in poverty rates and city/county budget deficits, this seems like a very risky proposition.

Thousands of city staff hours (and thousands of dollars in consulting/attorney fees) will be diverted to advancing this agreement to the next stage. Every dollar spent on this proposal between now and then is coming out of the general fund: if Paulson walks between now and the time his "personal guarantee" is signed, Portland is out everything they've spent.

Add to that the probability that Mayor Adams will be subjected to a recall vote, the $15 million funding gap, and the report that MLS may delay their decision, and you can imagine a variety of circumstances that would result in paralysis.

If Mayor Adams is recalled prior to the formal deal authorization from the City Council, then any greenlighting of the Peregrine LLC deal may be delayed until the results of the special election (and possible runoff) are known and the new Mayor has weighed in with the tie-breaking vote.

YoungOregonMoonbat "We would better serve the greater Portland Community if those "urban renewal" dollars were used to help the impoverished in the Portland Metro Area."

Moonbat...2 Timbers threads ago you said you were proud to be a bigot, and not afraid of being called a racist or a bigot.

<hr/>

Posted by: YoungOregonMoonbat | Mar 8, 2009 10:53:28 PM

I have thought of 1 benefit for MLS in Portland, OR:

1. On the day MLS plays, US Immigration and Customes Enforcement (ICE) will know where the largest concentration of illegal aliens will be on that given day.

If I was an ICE officer with a single police cruiser, I would be rounding up 3 per every half an hour, sending them down to the Central Precinct for processing, rinse and repeat.

I am all for MLS so long as it means putting lawbreakers in the same place at the same time.

Line 'em up, round 'em up, and send them home baby! LOL http://www.blueoregon.com/2009/03/why-progressives-should-support-the-mls-to-pdx-proposal/comments/page/3/#comments

<hr/>

Posted by: YoungOregonMoonbat | Mar 9, 2009 8:27:24 PM

Frank,

I see that, and I stand by what I said. Apparently, Jeff Alworth is backing up that statement by saying that soccer is a "low end sport." Good, make it low end enough so they all come. LOL.

Unlike you and many others, I am not afraid to be called a racist or xenophobe. I admit I do have my prejudices.

You want to continue your little progressive gangbang here or will you show some nuts and come verbally joust over at Jack Bog's Blog where I and many others will roast your pile of unsubstantiated dung?

I can do it either way, but I pick my fights son.

http://www.blueoregon.com/2009/03/by-representative-nick-kahl-d---in-jeffrey-wrights-post-why-progressives-should-support-the-mls-to-pdx-proposal-h/comments/page/2/#comments

Pardon moi if I feel your concern toward the "impoverished" is less than genuine, moonbat.

Although I am a soccer fan, I don't support this deal. My opposition to this plan is not based on emotion or some other personal issue; I just see this as a poor investment.

As is the case in every debate on public investment in professional sports facilities, the estimates of positive economic impact are primarily developed by private firms and or policy advocates in support of a decision to invest significant public capital.

However, the academic review (i.e. objective review) of these claims is consistently clear: the presence of a new or renovated stadium has no measurable impact on personal income and local development. For example, consider the following literature review on the subject by Professor Dennis Coates - University of Maryland - and Brad R. Humphreys - University of Alberta:

http://www.umbc.edu/economics/wpapers/wp_03_103.pdf

I recognize that one of the key arguments in favor of a public subsidy for the MLS and AAA stadia is the potential for job creation. However, we cannot make this type of decision in an economic vacuum - other opportunities for the investment and other needs for the capital need to be considered in the decision.

The City only has so much capital to invest in the local economy and only so much borrowing power. The request for this project is significant - $31 million in city backed loans and $18.5 million in direct investment.

First of all, the effect of city back loans should not be ignored in this equation, despite the assurances of Mr. Paulson to pay back the city.

An analogy would be that you loan your credit card to a trusted friend. The friend may well pay you back in time but while his charge is on your card that is less credit available to you to use for any variety of your needs.

As for the $18.5 million, the question should not be limited to this deal alone but the opportunity cost associated with these funds. For instance, the City's draft Economic Development Strategy identifies a number of target industries - wind and solar power, software engineering, etc...

The real question is should we invest $18.5 million of public funds in sports facilities or in developing other local economic sectors? or even investing in our small business sector (which comprises 90 percent of local jobs)? or in other public infrastructure or services? and so on...

In addition to "is this the best use for these funds?", the question of risk is relevant.

Given that the average Timbers game in 2008 drew less than half the capacity of the present PGE Park (128 thousand fans at 15 homes games in a park with 19,500 seats - approx. 43 percent attendance), estimates of tickets sales, attendance and the like appear optimistic.

But what about "Putting Portland on the Map"?

There is a value to civic pride and the like. I don't deny that. But given the current economy, public investment should be targeting areas with real economic development potential and borrowing capacity should be reserved as much as possible just in case we need it to address our most basic needs as we move through this period of low tax revenues.

So that is my take on the policy issue, as for the politics...I pass....

All the best,

Tony Fuentes

Couple thoughts:

1) Lents got hosed. Again.

I personally am happy they're off the table, only because I think the City would have seen Lents' urban renewal dollars as a deep pocket they could pick for what is essentially a citywide benefit. I also very much doubt the job and collateral economic development projections.

Having said that, though, the folks in Lents who worked for this deal were thrown under the bus once they outlived their usefulness to Merritt and Randy. And sadly, that's been all too typical.

2) This Deal is providing some useful impetus for a reexamination of urban renewal.

The issues around urban renewal are getting a ton more attention because of this deal, and it's good that the way urban renewal hurts other spending is being talked about. Nick Kahl's bill is surely getting a lot more attention because of the soccer/baseball deal.

I hope that as this conversation unfolds, it can shed the baggage of soccer/baseball. That is to say, I'd hate for the passions involved in the Paulson deal to put pro-MSL people in the "defend urban renewal" camp and anti-MSL people in the reform camp. The urban renewal issues are so much bigger for this community and shouldn't be put in that box.

3) In the dialogue surrounding this deal, truth took a beating. Exhibit A: Don Maziotti publicly stated that the "majority" of the 300 new nonconstruction jobs will pay "in the $45,000 to 60,000 per year range." I hope he's right, but something tells me he's not. What process is in place to judge the accuracy of this and other claims made about this deal two, three, ten years from now? Probably none, and that's unfortunate.

4) I'm very put off by Randy Leonard's sanctimonious lecturing of nearly everybody about urban renewal. Not to mention his veiled threat to withhold resources from the County.

Whatever dollars the City "gave" to the County in the past should have been given to improve the quality of life in this community. The same should be true in the future. But apparently there's the added issue in the mix now: whether Randy's ego has been scratched properly.

5) I was agnostic on Ted Wheeler before. After yesterday, I'll knock on 1000 doors for him next time out.

-John

Zaggy,

Including the $40 million franchise fee in the money Little Lord Paulson will pay column is a little silly, unless you're willing to consider the $70 million Paul Allen paid in 1988 to buy the Blazers (which comes to $127 million in 2009 dollars). Allen also paid $46 million outright for the Rose Garden construction ($69 million in 2009 dollars), and he privately financed another $155 million ($231 million in 2009 dollars). There is no way Paulson's share will come anywhere near those levels of private financing for the stadium by total dollar value or percentage of total costs.

I also remain skeptical about how much risk Paulson will really be taking on regarding cost overruns. Given that no binding agreements have been drafted, I don't think we should give him too much credit yet, especially since there are mad PR games still being played. Talk is cheap; show me a binding contract. The trouble is that I don't particularly expect Randy or Same to drive a hard bargain for the city in negotiations.

Garrett,

If you're accusing me of being a Jack Bogdanski fan, guilty as charged. Jack is a much needed gadfly to the insane fiscal irresponsible corporate welfare that passes for "progressive" by City of Portland leaders. Sam and Randy in particular never met a boondoggle they didn't love despite the city consistently neglecting basic services. Opposition to the aerial tram looks pretty prescient in hindsight. At any rate, he's a leading expert on tax law and actually understands how public finance works, which is more than can be said for most of the "rose-city-til-I-die" wannabe hooligan set. "I really like football and chanting and getting drunk at games" does not constitute a persuasive argument for the expenditure of public funds.

Torrid Joe, we can finally agree - Canada produces some pretty darn good woman soccer players.

I also remain skeptical about how much risk Paulson will really be taking on regarding cost overruns.

I hope Paulson is willing to take a lot of risk. Currently only 3 teams in the league make a profit.

And not much of one at that.

Scott,

The 3 profitable teams are located in LA, Dallas, and Toronto, metro areas which are between 3 and 6 times as populous as greater Portland and which also have way more major corporations headquartered there (sponsorship dollars / luxury box sales).

Isn't there some bridge that's about to collapse, that we should fix first?

Oh screw it! Let's play soccer...?

hHe runs an echo chamber of half-informed neo-populist bullshit

Um, he's a Stanford JD who is a leading expert on tax law, and he knows his shit when it comes to public finance and tax increment financing; that's for sure. If that's half-informed, I'll take that half. Now no one would ever accuse Blue Oregon of being an echo chamber...

And there's no such thing as a positive gadfly, unless you find "annoyance" positive.

Your anti-gadfly position shows utter contempt for the western philosophical tradition and open public debate. You sir are a philistine.

Jack is a much needed unwanted gadfly bilge spewer to the insane fiscal irresponsible corporate welfare guys at city council who see a good business deal when it smacks them in the face and that passes for "progressive" leadership by City of Portland leaders

I fixed your post for you.

"I really like football and chanting and getting drunk at games"

We're in America and we call it soccer here thanks and you don't know how much I do or don't drink while at a game.

Believe me I read the proposal in and out, which is more than I can say for Jack and the rest of his talking point repeating sycophants, and I see a deal with minimal risk and high reward. Most people that bothered to read the proposal see the same thing too. Jack Bogdanski would spit on a deal to fund a center for recovering cocaine addicts if it cost public money. His sycophants have little to no place in a progressive city.

I thought this thread was about "politics and policy" and NOT yet another public pissing match?

Name-calling, debating whether we should love or hate Jack Bogdanski, bland statements that ones opponents don't know anything... Why don't you people just have a big rumble in some schoolyard?

Garrett, the Bob Tiernan who comments here is NOT the chairman of the Oregon GOP. He's a libertarian from Gresham. And has been particpating here for a long time.

Gotcha...just figured they were one in the same. Apologies to the Bob T. here on Blue Oregon. I've insulted you far worse that I even knew.

Sam I am loves his green sportspork and ham. Recall this bum already ! "Vibrant" ? give me a break. The creative class healthy artsy people social engineering fetish of planners and bribed politicians is just Big Mother government. Jack's Blog is the only media who can successfully inform about what I lousy government we have in Oregon. If BlueOregon disappears Jack's blog will still be there. You can bet on that. Progressive ? I suppose that means the same thing as "sustainable"- which means nothing.

Hi torridjoe,

Per Oregon Constitution the recall can not legally file until July 1st. We then have 90 days to collect our goal of 50,000 signatures. We anticipate taking close to the 90 days because we feel it is our duty to do voter registration, identification and education as part of our neighbor-to-neighbor volunteer signature collecting. Granted the more volunteers we have the sooner we will reach our goal and thus turn in the signatures sooner.

The reason I mention this is that once we turn in the recall petition the City auditor (NOTE: with the current Auditor election, this is a good time to ask canidates if they will hold Sam accountable) has 10 days to verify the signatures. Once verified Sam Adams will have 5 days to respond to our recall. It is our hope that he will be accountable for his actions and resign at this time. If he should force a recall election, it will happen no more than 35 days after his response.

We will not be hiring paid signature gathers for this recall. The reason I mention the above is that our goal is to have 2000 volunteers registered and trained so start collecting signatures from their friends and neighbors by July 1st. With this many volunteers, each only has to collect 25 signatures (easily do able in one weekend, as we hope to provide 'turf cuts' of voter in each volunteers neighborhood). It is also important for us to let people know that you need not be a Portland resident to volunteer for the recall, though you do need to be a registered Portland voter to sign the recall petition.

If enough people sign up to the website and volunteer to collect signatures it is very possible for Sam Adams to be out of office by September 1st.

Please, if ever you have any questions or concerns about the recall feel free to send an email to [email protected] or call me directly at 503-799-7919.

Together we will make our government better,

RecallSamAdams.com Jasun Wurster

Eric Berg gave me a good idea. Instead of calling it a "creative class" economy how about a "Cracker Jack" economy. That goes well with the rest of Portland's "green city" Toon Town urbanism faerie tale.

Why don't you people just have a big rumble in some schoolyard?

I'd love to. Here's the problem. Much like public testimony at task force hearings, at city hall hearings, and anywhere else...

They don't show up.

Thanks Garrett. Now I remember why I stopped participating on this board.

Thanks Garrett. Now I remember why I stopped participating on this board.

I was making a point John. If the Jack Bog worshipers were half as powerful as they thought they were you'd figure they'd be able to stop this thing from happening. You'd also think some of them would show up to testify against the stadium deal. At least ONE of them would. Jack himself maybe? Alas...they were too busy writing and commenting on blogs to bother participating in the public process.

Hi torridjoe,

Aside from our disagreement about Sam Adams leaving the citizens no choice to hold him accountable for his unethical and willful actions of lying to the public, masterminding a cover-up, negative campaigning and abusing his power so that he lacks of public trust and is politically bankrupt...

According to the last special election voter turn our was 58.46 percent. The recall would be remiss in not including the Portland voters that cast ballots in that election to be on the on the list of 'turf cuts' and mailers for the election. Which, not having paid signature gathers will not only increase the credibility of the recall campaign (plus it is the right way to campaign) but it will greatly save money for us to send mailers. We will also not be hiring any political consultants [ they are way overpaid any way ;) ].

For example, your claim of “the likelihood of the vote succeeding is pretty small”. Upon further analysis, Sam's numbers not as large as you may think. According the the results from the mayoral election (the one Sam subverted and suppressed) voter turn out was 60.23 percent. Again we have a difference of opinion because we do not consider Adams win a “landslide” with 41.33 percent of the population not voting for him. You see, an example of a landslide election would be the 70.87 percent that voted for Amanda Fritz for her very honest, open and volunteer based campaign (which I know a great deal about).

It is our guess that 9 percent of the people that voted for Adams may have had a change of heart about the lies he resorted to get elected, his CRC betrayal, choosing soccer over schools... and who knows what else before we can even file to recall him.

If we can get enough volunteers and turn in our goal of 50,000 recall signatures before September 1st (yes it is ambitious), it is very likely that Sam Adams will resign instead of permanently ending his political career by being thrown out of office.

We are not calling on peoples 'anger' to remove Adams from office, we are asking for citizens to hold him accountable for his civic transgressions.

If ever you want to quit 'keyboard quarterbacking' this recall and be part something based on citizen participation, honesty and kindness please let me know,

RecallSamAdams.com Jasun Wurster

@ TorridJoe: "The money is in buying and selling franchises, and reaping expansion fees."

Nicely put --- the taxpayers in Portland and MutlCo are being strapped to a huge bundle of risk with little to no upside (and in the face of mountains of evidence of how this has worked in countless other places, which boosters always avoid) to give Little Lord Paulson a terrific upside with very little risk.

If he wants to play around in sports, he should be the one to spend for the ancillaries needed to get into the game of "buying and selling franchises, and reaping expansion fees."

Hi torridjoe,

Can you point me to the poll. And the follow up poll a few weeks later so that I can compare the move in public opinion.

Also, I really would like to look at the questions asked and demographic breakdown of the polls.

Really, never trust a poll until you have the cross-tabs and one follow up poll to compare against.

RecallSamAdams.com Jasun Wurster

Throwing away our recent “investment” in PGE, while borrowing additional tens of millions of dollars to support ANOTHER private sports team owner, tells me our “leaders” do not understand the economic and environmental situation we are in.

How can two new stadiums be a priority when we literally have hungry children, crashing fish and bird populations, and crumbling bridges in seismically active area?

I hope our economy improves and I hope this is not a long hot summer, or we may have to use PGE Park to hold rioters.

"the taxpayers in Portland and MutlCo are being strapped to a huge bundle of risk" In what city is $2.5mil a huge bundle of risk, especially considering they'll also realize ownership of about 20 times that in new infrastructure?

Nice try calling a ball field and a soccer stadium "infrastructure," but they're not. Infrastructure means the supporting services and facilities for all uses, not end uses (like stadia). Infrastructure tends to be valuable because it isn't vulnerable to sector downturns, and it provides opportunities for a number of ventures. Meanwhile, the FIRST $2.5M of risk is just the number on the OVERRUNS ... (funny that even the most avid backers have to concede that overruns are epidemic in sports construction).

Another risk is winding up with two dead, empty stadia worth zip, while having knocked down a very serviceable Memorial Coliseum.

There are no "countless other places" to compare it to, since there are precious few, if any, examples of such extreme privatization of risk as the City enjoys from this plan.

"extreme privatization of risk"?????? Paulson gets the moveable asset (the team); when attendance tanks, he can says "The city doesn't support soccer, the team isn't viable here, I have to move it or shut it down."

The CITY and County are the ones taking all the risk, pouring public dollars to build facilities for a very narrow market sector that depends on having lots of people with lots of discretionary money to burn on sports --- money that, in study after study in city after city, is shown again and again to simply be diverted from other entertainment spending.

But, whatever you do, don't read "Field of Schemes: How the Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money Into Private Profit" or visit fieldofschemes.com and check into all the research linked there -- because a little actual knowledge of how this plays out would definitely interfere with your chanting about what a great deal this is.

@TorridJoe: "George, the word "structure" is part of the word "infrastructure," did you notice? Your claim that stadia aren't infrastructure is pretty absurd."

Yes, and the prefix "infra" modifies "structure" to make the word mean the things between (literally "below") the structures.

Water mains are infrastructure; as are sewers, power distribution equipment, storm runoff swales, etc.

A stadium is a structure yes, but it's a facility that relies on infrastructure but provides no support services to other facilities (it can't, it's not infrastructure).

"Say Paulson takes his teams as you claim, without any evidence to support your thesis."

Seattle Supersonics, Baltimore Colts, Cleveland Browns, St. Louis Cardinals (NFL), Los Angeles Rams, Brooklyn Dodgers, Montreal Expos, Washington Senators . . . The hold-up game has been going on for a long, long time.

That's the basis for my "thesis" --- what's the basis for your belief that Merritt Paulson is anything other than a sports owner like every other one (Green Bay excepted)?

As for familiarity with many scams perpetrated in the name of "raising the profile" and becoming a "big league" city, the one constant in all of those cities is that there are people like you, constantly fluffing for the owners so that they can go rape the public, after promising the sun, the moon and the stars.

Frank,

You are taking and making this very personal. I respect your right to have your point of view, but I do disagree with it entirely.

However, you reposting what I have said is very disconcerting. First, I take responsibility for all of it. Second, I forget some of it because I have a busy life. Finally, I don't hold infantile grudges where I remember what you post and continually repost in every thread that you are commenting in.

Please stop this immaturity. If the intent is to silence me, then that will never happen unless I am six in the ground.

So, what is your point?

Really, never trust a poll until you have the cross-tabs and one follow up poll to compare against.

It's kind of like how lots of people don't trust a group whose organizers hide their motives behind a figurehead spokesman.

Seattle Supersonics, Baltimore Colts, Cleveland Browns, St. Louis Cardinals (NFL), Los Angeles Rams, Brooklyn Dodgers, Montreal Expos, Washington Senators . . . The hold-up game has been going on for a long, long time.

Ask them how much their stadiums were worth to them after the teams that played in them left?

Seattle - Currently trying to get an ownership group together to get an expansion team. City and state currently working on getting funding to remodel Key Arena. We all know that will happen eventually considering what happened with Qwest and the Safeco. The city dared Howard Schultz and then Clay Bennett to leave...then lost.

Baltimore- Built a $220 million dollar stadium for the Ravens to replace the Colts- publically funded.

Cleveland - Built a $283 million dollar stadium for the Browns to lure an expansion franchise- publically funded.

St. Louis - Built a $280 million dollar stadium for the Rams to come and replace the Cardinals, currently undergoing $30 million dollar publically funded renovation, stadium publically funded.

Brooklyn - NY built Shea in 1962 for $28.5 million. Currently building it's replacement Citi Stadium for $850 million, publically funded.

Washington DC - Built Nationals stadium at a cost of $611 million to replace the Senators.

Good examples dude...

Oh and Nationals Stadium was publically funded as well.

People, people, Paulson has signed nothing and made no commits. Meanwhile Randy has opened his mouth and said CoP will go along with it.

Paulson made a lot of promises to get CoP to bite on financing. All of them are impossible to keep up with, but let’s start with two simple ones:

$85M loan payoff (@6% over 30 years) = $6.2M / year 300 NEW jobs (assuming they cost $50K each) = $15M/year Why he will need 300 jobs, I don’t know, but he said it so it must be true. Total for these 2 items = $21.2M / year

Attendance 15 Timber games (@ 14000 each) = 210,000 50 Beaver games (@ 7000 each) = 350,000 Total attendance = 560,000/yr

$21.2M / 560,000 = $37.86/ticket

Let’s not forget to include: - Player and existing salaries (he did say 300 NEW jobs) - Cost of goods sold (he’d better do 6-digits worth of t-shirts at every game) - Mr Paulson’s profit (what?)

The game plan for the less informed:

First Half – Paulson gets a CoP commit and maybe a MLS franchise

Second Half – Construction starts and Paulson gets alligator arms when given any bill since he is not making a profit. Randy gets upset and threatens to tear down PGE Park with his pickup truck.

Sam says “it’s too late to stop we started already, besides you didn’t tear down the Tram even though it generated zero bio-tech jobs”. Randy and Sam then throw more money at PGE Park. Randy thinks, I guess I shouldn’t have told them I was going to build a stadium in Lents and then decided to do it downtown at the last minute. Budget overruns and hilarity ensue.

OT – Portland has MLS franchise that Miami, Atlanta and Montreal turned down and a close to $100M in 80-year old PGE Park dependent on Paulson to keep it full and still no parking. Schools are still lousy, potholes deep and police precincts closed.

Even more hilarity ensues as duped population realizes there are no new jobs, tickets are expensive and they can’t believe no one is flying from France to watch the Timbers play and stay in the CC Hotel. However, some Intel employees in Hillsboro do ride MAX in to watch a game since they have pretty good salaries thanks to the several $100M expansion and rehab Intel is doing to fabs now. Wash County commissioners smile because it cost taxpayers in Wash County nothing for those jobs and the associated income and property taxes they generate.

Duped population rises up en masse to storm Portland City Hall, but realizes there is no parking downtown so only the 20 members of the Timbers Army show up.

However, they are under-educated since the school year is 3 days long because it has the same budget from property taxes it did when the URD went into effect from the PGE Park district so not understanding dialectic they talk louder. Moreover, Mayor (I cringe to say that) Adams’ economic plan has created zero jobs and they are unemployed and have plenty of time to cheer yet another rebuild of PGE Park to make it better because Steve Janik and Merritt Paulson want it.

The End.

I think Mr Adams needs to realize when you invest in people you make life better. Investing several times over in the same 80-year old stadium is not improving us neither do 250-foot tall empty condos on the river bank.

From Wikipedia:

"Gadfly" is a term for people who upset the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or just being an irritant.

The term "gadfly" was used by Plato in the Apology to describe Socrates' relationship of uncomfortable goad to the Athenian political scene, which he compared to a slow and dimwitted horse. The Bible also references the gadfly in terms of political influence; The Book of Jeremiah (46:20, Darby Bible) states "Egypt is a very fair heifer; the gad-fly cometh, it cometh from the north." The term has been used to describe many politicians and social commentators; in modern Hebrew, which knows many more idioms than those used by Jeremiah, gadfly is "mekhapes pagam" literally "fault searcher".

During his defense when on trial for his life, Socrates, according to Plato's writings, pointed out that dissent, like the tiny (relative to the size of a horse) gadfly, was easy to swat, but the cost to society of silencing individuals who were irritating could be very high. "If you kill a man like me, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me," because his role was that of a gadfly, "to sting people and whip them into a fury, all in the service of truth."

In modern and local politics, gadfly is a term used to describe someone who persistently challenges people in positions of power, the status quo or a popular position. The word may be uttered in a pejorative sense, while at the same time be accepted as a description of honorable work or civic duty.

From the Free Dictionary:

gad·fly (gdfl) n. 1. A persistent irritating critic; a nuisance. 2. One that acts as a provocative stimulus; a goad. 3. Any of various flies, especially of the family Tabanidae, that bite or annoy livestock and other animals.

I guess Plato and Socrates were illiterate too. TJ, you sir, are too literal.

Another slow day at the Portland Fire Bureau Mr TorridJoe? You seem to have all the answers today, just no real numbers.

Miami, Montreal and Atlanta did not 'turn down' and MLS franchise.

Atlanta dropped out last year after the applicant, Blank, decided there was no way to get a stadium deal put together in Atlanta. They have no existing stadium that they can use to improve, so they would have had to find land and build a $300m+ stadium.

Miami's bid was dropped from consideration by the league because of concerns by MLS about the viability of South Florida as a sports market.

Montreal did not submit a bid.

"MLS about the viability of South Florida as a sports market."

Wow, so how the heck does MLB, NFL have two teams there and the NBA survives in Miami and Orlando? Nice cover story. I thought Montreal had a huge foreign-born population who can savor soccer, so I guess the USL is good enough.

We're down to competing with places like St Louis. Pretty major league.

So Garrett, anything else Baltimore, CLeveland and St Louis are doing we should emulate? Those are great role models and I hope we end up just like each of those cities.

Funny, you didn't mention KC where the Hunts are contributing $125M to remodel Arrowhead. One of those inconvenient truths.

Torrid Joe, I can see why you don't get Bogdanski's blog. Your writing is clunky like someone talking while he's jogging:

"Not currently possible. The terms must be finalized by September 1. The recall vote, if any, couldn't take place before November."

  Relax, man. Catch your breath. You say Jack's running an echo chamber? You should try running an oxygen chamber.

Steve nailed it:

"Second Half – Construction starts and Paulson gets alligator arms when given any bill since he is not making a profit. Randy gets upset and threatens to tear down PGE Park with his pickup truck."

What if the "personal guarantee/construction cost overrun" guy runs out of money? What if Papa Paulson cuts him off? What if Jr. gets a divorce and loses half his net worth? Once the M/C demolition is complete, the City is committed to replacing it with something, no matter whether or not Paulson is along for the ride.

The first sign of trouble will be when MLS pushes back their decision date.

@ Garrett: You make my points for me:

Seattle - Currently trying to get an ownership group together to get an expansion team. City and state currently working on getting funding to remodel Key Arena. We all know that will happen eventually considering what happened with Qwest and the Safeco. The city dared Howard Schultz and then Clay Bennett to leave...then lost. Baltimore- Built a $220 million dollar stadium for the Ravens to replace the Colts- publically funded. Cleveland - Built a $283 million dollar stadium for the Browns to lure an expansion franchise- publically funded. St. Louis - Built a $280 million dollar stadium for the Rams to come and replace the Cardinals, currently undergoing $30 million dollar publically funded renovation, stadium publically funded. Brooklyn - NY built Shea in 1962 for $28.5 million. Currently building it's replacement Citi Stadium for $850 million, publically funded. Washington DC - Built Nationals stadium at a cost of $611 million to replace the Senators.

We could have thrown in the big Memorial Stadium scam in Milwaukee, and on and on and on -- the point is, as you listed, once a city goes down the road of being the bitch for a sports owner, it never stops.

Like abused women, the city keeps thinking that "this time it's different," and that this time true love will prevail. Not gonna happen.

@Torridjoe: Funny, in one post you're telling me I have to believe numbers from a sports team owner, in a prior post you're telling us all about how you can't believe the numbers from MLB owners. I agree with your first insight: you can't believe anything a sports owner says if there are dollar signs involved.

Financial concerns aside, I've got a big problem with tearing down the Memorial Coliseum. The building is both an important piece of Portland's architectural history and something of a landmark.

Secondly, I don't much like putting public funds into a minor league field when there's an active (if sporadic) effort to attract a major league baseball team. If we're going to pay for a minor league park, design it to be easily expandable to a major league park, if and when we land a MLB team. That means it should go wherever we're planning to put the future major league park.

Otherwise, when MLB comes to town, we'll be spending additional funds to build a brand new park instead of expanding the one already there. Plus, what's the chance Portland can support both a major league AND a minor league ball club? We build a dedicated only-for-minor-league stadium, it stands to become a white elephant in just a few years.

But if we do build a dedicated minor-league ballpark, put it somewhere on the PSU campus and let the Vikings play there. That way, if/when major league ball gets here and the minor league team goes away, we'll still have "Viking stadium" at PSU.

There are two needs for a major league team in any sport over time to be financially successful: a population base big enough and wealthy enough to fill the seats, and a television audience big enough to produce significant media revenue. (Plus, of course, a team at least occasionally good enough to maintain fan interest.)

It really seems doubtful to me that our population is big enough to produce big crowds for soccer, week after week, for two reasons: the actual people count, and, the lack or general interest in soccer as a spectator sport. (Challenge: ask 100 people, chosen at random and who say yes to the question "do you consider yourself a fan of professional sports?" to name at least three MLS teams; I'd be surprised if you'd get ten who could. Ask those same people to name at least three NFL teams, or NL or Al baseball teams, and I suspect there'd be a majority.)

The teevee revenue seems to me even more problematic. First, because the lack of any big local interest would discourage potential advertisers from risking big bucks on sponsorship, but more important, because it seems so doubtful that soccer will ever, or at least any time in the near future, be a big thing on teevee in this country, because of the nature of the game.

Baseball is a natural for teevee, because in every game there are at least 17 built-in commercial breaks, and when you add pitching changes, almost always more than twenty.

Football and basketball do well, too, because of both team and sponsor-called time-outs, plus quarter and half-time breaks.

But where are the commercial breaks during a soccer game? No time-outs! Only two period breaks! No time to sell the beer, or cars, or ED relievers so critical to commercial television!

And one more reason: Americans love games where there are lots of individual performance records being constantly challenged. Football: rushing yards, passing yards, percentages, receptions, tackles, sacks, etc. etc. Basketball: all kinds of scoring percentages, plus assists, and rebounds, and blocked shots. Baseball is the mother lode: there are records for everything, and the true baseball fan can quote you a google of 'em. Soccer just doesn't offer that.

Doesn't seem like a very good place to risk the City's money.

YoungOregonMoonbat:

We would better serve the greater Portland Community if those "urban renewal" dollars were used to help the impoverished in the Portland Metro Area.

Bob T:

I doubt that is what "urban renewal" was meant to be. This government power was asking to be abused from the beginning. All of the usual sob stories and promises were used to get the authority back when, but remember that when government gets to pick winners and losers and dole out money, all bets are off. Progressives didn't listen. Few others did as well.

YoungOregonMoonbat:

This is another reverse Robin Hood example...

Bob T:

Did you get this right in the first place? I seem to recall that Robin Hood was always taking the money from the tax collector and other agents of the king. In other words, government. Not the rich. Government.

Bob Tiernan Portland

George Seldes:

Seattle Supersonics, Baltimore Colts, Cleveland Browns, St. Louis Cardinals (NFL), Los Angeles Rams, Brooklyn Dodgers, Montreal Expos, Washington Senators . . . The hold-up game has been going on for a long, long time.

Bob T:

The hold-up game was made possible because of politicians, not the owners. All if takes is for the politicians to say no and to not be worried that a team may re-locate. And to resist the ego-driven temptations to "make the city great". Sam Adams and Randy Leonard aren't the first schmucks to hand out corporate sports welfare.

I'll repeat again: professional sports would still be around if every attempt to get taxpayer dollars failed, just like Safeway is still around despite the fact that they build their own stores.

I hear people in these discussions trashing Paulson but no one else, despite the fact that he has no power to take your money. Is anyone here even thinking of using the initiative process to strip the city of its power to cut these sorts of deals? I doubt it. Most of you thought it was "neat" to elect Adams and Leonard. How do you like it now? The only person on the city council who received my vote is Amanda Fritz, and she voted No.

Bob Tiernan Portland

GO ST. LOUIS!

Posted by: YoungOregonMoonbat | Mar 12, 2009 7:05:38 PM

Frank,

You are taking and making this very personal. I respect your right to have your point of view, but I do disagree with it entirely.

However, you reposting what I have said is very disconcerting. First, I take responsibility for all of it. Second, I forget some of it because I have a busy life. Finally, I don't hold infantile grudges where I remember what you post and continually repost in every thread that you are commenting in.

Please stop this immaturity. If the intent is to silence me, then that will never happen unless I am six in the ground.

<h2>So, what is your point?</h2>

It's pretty clear you don't think it's a big deal that you are proud public self-avowed racist.

The vast majority of Americans do think that's a big deal.

Posted by: torridjoe | Mar 12, 2009 4:59:33 PM

"Sam's numbers not as large as you may think."

They're quite good, actually!

So, are y'all going to act like English footy fans? Or German or Scottish or French or ANY north European... Yeah, it makes for a competitive game. Ever watch Netherlands v Belgium? Should be a real cracker, right? I think they've scored like 40 goals in 170 some odd match-ups. They just stand at midfield fouling each other for 90 minutes or whatever it is.

Let's be honest. This is kind of like Indian football, no?

Paul:

... so ... if MLS is so successful ... then they need public money why?

Bob T:

They don't. But they also know that almost every city is run by "economy managing" corporate welfare jerks who'll do just about anything to make their cities "important".

Bob Tiernan Portland

Portland has MLS franchise that Miami, Atlanta and Montreal turned down

They didn't turn them down. Atlanta wasn't far enough along in their bid and had no stadium plan in place, Montreal tried to bargain their way into paying somewhere around $9 million for a franchise and then were laughed out of contention. Joey Saputo's ego makes him think he's too important not to have in MLS so they should do whatever he bids. That didn't fly down at league offices. Miami...see below.

Wow, so how the heck does MLB, NFL have two teams there and the NBA survives in Miami and Orlando?

Specifically I'm talking about the Miami market. Do you really believe that Miami is a good market? The Marlins had empty seats during their two NL pennants and struggled to sell out for the World Series. Even after winning two World Series' the owners have talked of moving the team. The Dolphins struggle to fill the seats in their stadium unless they're winning, which they usually manage to do. The NBA franchise never sold out until Shaq arrived. Once Shaq left they went back to averaging 16K per game from 20K and they were winning more games without Shaq.

Miami is a notoriously fickle sports market. Leagues like to have teams down there because it's sexy and they look good on TV. Mostly though it's just too hot outside and there is too much going on for the population to go watch a game. Next stupid argument please...

It really seems doubtful to me that our population is big enough to produce big crowds for soccer, week after week, for two reasons: the actual people count, and, the lack or general interest in soccer as a spectator sport.

Yeah, you mean the ones that already are showing up for soccer games now? 9,000 per game in a minor league at the last count. So they've already proved they'll show up. Also the metro area is expected to grow by at least 1 million in the next 10 years. So there are the numbers.

Otherwise, when MLB comes to town

Keep wishing and dreaming. Take what just happened with this stadium proposal. Keep in mind we're talking about $85 million for 2 stadiums. Now imagine the same debate but we're talking about $400 million in public funding for a stadium.

You need an owner willing to buy a team, relocate them here and pay for a stadium out of their own pocket to make MLB happen in Portland. Now, if you can think of anyone with close to $800 million to blow on a MLB team in Portland please invite them to the party.

Add that to us being a small market baseball town we'd probably have the winning record of say, Kansas City due to the financial make up of the league. I'd rather not have a MLB team than have one that wins as often as Kansas City. MLB in Portland is a pipe dream.

The continual, and obsessive, search for a major league sports franchise is not an indication of being a "major league city." It is a pathetic search for external validation.

Steve, I told you I went to the March 11th City Council meeting 2 days ago. I got a copy of the 8 page agreement at that meeting. I busted you for lying about this agreement then. You're still lying about the agreement.

M. Paulson is signing a written guarantee that makes him, not the Timbers Corp, Paulson himself responsible for the rent being paid on both stadiums for 25 years. He has to pay that rent whether the MLS is in business or isn't in business. He's also limiting the city's liability on construction cost overruns to the 1st $2.5 million, too.

Steve might be just wrong if he's caught lying once. He gets caught lying about the same thing again, then Steve is clearly just a liar, and nothing Steve says can be trusted.

Well, the usual, reliable cheerleaders for Leonard and Adams are certainly busy here, trying to square the circle and explain why The City That Works, otherwise known as The City That Can't Plow the Streets, should direct welfare to the wealthy.

Someone up-thread wrote about Randy Leonard coming off as a bully. That's because he IS a bully. See his quoted, typically abusive remarks in The Oregonian directed at Ted Wheeler.

Torrid joe,

You keep posting that the city is only risking $2.5m. In your opinion, what is the upside as far as infrastructure and future tax revenue?

"OVERALL increase in tax revenues to the City that would likely accrue as a result of the deal"

thanks

gl

torridjoe, check recent history. PGE Park HAS been used for Women's World Cup play and has also been used for international exhibition friendly matches. They were very well attended without any expenditure in the Million$ to renovate said venue.

At the end of the day the question SHOULD be, "Does the area around PGE Park meet the definition of urban blight"? and then, if it does, would public bonding through a URD address this blight? The answer to both is NO.

Torrid Joe, Seven comments in a row? Isn't it time for a courtesy flush?

Isn't it time for both Bill and TJ to substantially chill out?

Torrid, So you are saying that Portland stands to make "Hundreds of millions of dollars over the long term", with putting ONLY $2.5m at risk? Does this sound reasonable, or even the least bit logical?

Here's my comment made originally on Jack's site:

I read a lot of coverage yesterday about how the billionaire would react to the millionaire over this soccer deal. Finally I had to get back to earth with a slice of reality. It took the form of a slice of pizza over on Belmont. Carl, the owner of "It's a Beautiful Pizza", was hard at work trying to keep his business going, so I asked him how he felt about the city throwing this much money at rich people. He said, "You can't even watch the news anymore." See, Carl attended a different city council meeting a few years back. He had moved his business across the street and for doing that the city charged him $36,000. He worked with Sam Adams and Sam's boss Mayor Katz to try and get it changed, and that led to Carl's appearance before the council where she cut him off after 5 minutes. The commissioners all said the amount was unfortunate and sorry it had to be that way, but they all still voted for him to have to pay the 36 grand. Fortunately, the whole thing ended up on the front page of the Oregonian and the resulting media storm forced our city leaders to reduce the bill to around 8 grand. That's 8 grand to cross Belmont to a place that has less actual seats than his old location - now the Blue Monk. I asked Carl how he kept the anger from getting to him back then - and now for that matter - when he watches our city council finagling a way to help smooth-talking rich kids with what will probably turn out to be a couple hundred million when all the interest, etc...is paid. He smiled a painful smile and said, "I just breathe." By the way, he's still paying the $8,000 dollar fee off.

TJ writes, {URAs} stipulate areas where economic development is currently stagnant and opportunities for development exist, with inducement.

You seem to believe that development wouldn't occur in these areas without the URA. Yet the neighborhood around PGE Park has seen plenty of development (namely, The Civic Condominiums and The Agency). The "Allegro", a condo tower (see http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=120880629465012700), was planned just across the street from the Lincoln football field, but Tri-Met, the Goose Hollow N/A, and City Planners shot that down.

Paul Allen and Cordish would bring hundreds of millions in private capital for the Rose Garden-to-the-Riverfront redevelopment, far more than Merritt Paulson is willing to cough up.

TORRID $100,000,000 (Even thought you est. a FEW hundred million) over the long term) off of only $2.5m in risk??? Even Madoff did not promise those returns. With the 30 yr AAA G.O. Muni yield at 4.68% the risk to reward of $2.m to hundreds of millions does not pencil out.

I am not saying the stadium is a bad idea - Im just saying that portland ONLY risking $2.5m for $100,000,000 plus in gain is so improbable that the Econ prof and MBA you mention need a refresher course in statistics and an probability. You are talking about a 4000% return!!!!

“Do you really believe that Miami is a good market?”

Well, its 3x the Portland market and has a higher Hispanic population. I was assuming that would make them a good candidate for soccer. That make me feel much better about the likelihood of success of MLS in Portland.

As far as Montreal, they thought the franchise was worth only $9M. So Paulson wants to play in the Ponzi scheme that is franchise fees. Montreal doesn’t think MLS is worth the investment, ergo, they didn’t want MLS.

“M. Paulson is signing a written guarantee that makes him, not the Timbers Corp, Paulson himself responsible for the rent being paid on both stadiums for 25 years.”

“If you had paid attention, you'd have heard Janik explain that nothing agreed to this week is legally binding.”

OK, back to my original statement. Paulson has SIGNED (past or present tense) and has no commits. This means he could tell Randy anything to get a franchise and probably did. Maybe Frank and TorridJoe should get together (probably M-F 8-5 is good since TorridJoe isn’t that busy at his CoP job) and discuss what a commitment means.

Who knows how this will end up? Before Tuesday, we were going to have a special URD and a stadium in Lents, after Tuesday – not so much. This was Randy saying what he had to buy Saltzman’s vote.

“or $49mil if you include the bonds on the ticket fund, which unlike the URAs actually has a direct funding stream to it.”

Mr TJ, you do realize that a bond is a liability? CoP takes out the bond and has to pay them back. We are all praying that Paulson will pay them off from his activities over 30 years.

Of course, neither of you addressed my numbers of $37/ticket in promises Paulson has made. I also forgot to include the$12.5M in debt if he shares in rehab and the $40M to MLS he is taking on, so this means approx $7/ticket in debt payments. Or a total of about $44/ticket in debt service/ticket.

This might make his making a profit difficult. If Mr Paulson doesn’t make a profit, I am kind of hard pressed to see him making a payment.

"Paulson has SIGNED"

Sorry, meant Paulson has NOT signed.

I guess I am compelled to keep lying, forgive me.

Steve: "OK, back to my original statement. Paulson has SIGNED (past or present tense) and has no commits."

Steve, You mean your original lie?

-Pulling out the copy of the actual 8 page agreement I got at the City Council meeting, M. Paulsen either signs a personal guarantee of the rent amounts of both stadiums for the 25 year term of the lease, or the deal with the city is void.

-The city will own both stadiums. M. Paulsen will be a tenant.

-M. Paulsen also personally guarantees the city pays only the 1st 2.5 million on construction cost overruns.

-M. Paulsen personally guarantees either the Timbers or the Beavers will be relocated for the 25 year term of the lease.

-M. Paulsen has to pay that rent whether the MLS is in-business or out of business.

<hr/>

Steve "Of course, neither of you addressed my numbers of $37/ticket in promises Paulson has made."

<h2>Nobody has addressed it because that nonsense was just more of your lies, Steve.</h2>

Steve "I guess I am compelled to keep lying, forgive me."

You aren't compelled to do crap, Steve. You lie because you choose to lie.

Oh... and Steve, why does M. Paulsen not just declare bankrupcy on the agreement with the city?

Because M. Paulsen stop paying his rent, he puts the title of both the Timbers franchise and the Beavers franchise at risk if he claims he has no money to pay rent. The personal guarantee he's agreed to sign means the city could take both franchises from him in court. The worst case scenario of the City of Portland/Paulsen deal leaves the City of Portland owner of both franchises and both stadiums.

Oh... and Steve, why does M. Paulsen not just declare bankrupcy on the agreement with the city?

Because M. Paulsen stop paying his rent, he puts the title of both the Timbers franchise and the Beavers franchise at risk if he claims he has no money to pay rent. The personal guarantee he's agreed to sign means the city could take both franchises from him in court. The worst case scenario of the City of Portland/Paulsen deal leaves the City of Portland owner of both franchises and both stadiums.

TJ?

The planning director of the neighborhood THAT'S RECEIVING THE SUBSIDY, an MBA Prof, and an Economics Professor, none of whom have names? This proves what, exactly?

Whatever they're paying you to lobby in favor of this deal, they're paying too much, TJ.

"The personal guarantee he's agreed to sign means the city could take both franchises from him in court."

That's wonderful, the city would get two money-losing franchises and still have to pay the bonds it issued if Paulson ups and leaves.

I don't know why you and Mr TJ are so hung up on CoP owning PGE Park after they pour $100M into it - God I hope they own it.

As I pointed out to Mr TJ, Hillsboro doesn't own Intel's buildings, but Intel is poruing several $100M into their buildings and Hillsboro will collect a lot of income and property taxes to pave streets and build schools with.

On the flip side, if it is so important CoP owns stuf, fine. I have a plan to build the world's largest beer fountain in Waterfront Park. I plan on asking Randy for $85M to build said park and I can supply projections and will personally guarantee that this will be a huge money maker for CoP. Plus Cop keeps the beer fountain after I pay them for use of the space.

I know a lot more people drink beer than go to soccer games and I do think some one will fly from the Netherlands to see my 300 foot tall beer bottle sculpture, so why shoudln't I get money?

Man I love lying.

Steve "That's wonderful, the city would get two money-losing franchises and still have to pay the bonds it issued if Paulson ups and leaves."

Except for one little detail you lied about. Both franchises make a profit now, and are projected to make even more money after the Timbers are in the MLS, and the Beavers are in a more intimate baseball only stadium. The Timbers beak their own attendance records every year, average almost 8527 ticket sold to regular season USL-1 matches (2nd in the USL).

<h2>http://www.portlandtimbers.com/newsroom/pressreleases/index.html?article_id=994</h2>

Steve "I have a plan to build the world's largest beer fountain in Waterfront Park.

<h2>Unlimited amounts of alcohol next a large, cold, fast-moving, deep body of water. That's just brilliant. Another risky scheme from another right wing idiot. Let me know when you get liability insurance for that.</h2>

Steve "Man I love lying."

Steve loves lying. Moonbat loves being a bigot. Glad you guys love what you do in life.

"Both franchises make a profit now, and are projected to make even more money after the Timbers are in the MLS, and the Beavers are in a more intimate baseball only stadium."

Slight difference - Both franchises will have $125M ($85M to re-do the parks and $40M to MLS) in loans to payoff and 300 new employees to support also then.

I do hope they make a profit, because they'll be looking at having to make about $25M worth of bills every year to pay.

I love this.

"Unlimited amounts of alcohol next a large, cold, fast-moving, deep body of water. That's just brilliant."

WARNING - Please do not attend the Brewer's Fest in Waterfront Park this spring.

Man, I love this.

@Torridjoe: "-M. Paulsen personally guarantees either the Timbers or the Beavers will be relocated for the 25 year term of the lease."

I forgot about that. George, that's why the teams won't leave."

You'll pardon me for asking, but what the hell is M Paulson's personal guarantee worth, a Sam Adams denial?

That's right, exactly nothing.

If the attendance tanks and the stadia bills are a dead weight on his fortune, Paulson will shut the teams down if he can't sell them. He will most likely blame the city for forcing him to move the teams or he will sell them to some greater fool, who will say that he is not bound by the good intentions that Paulson had.

If, as you keep assuring us, the City of Portland is not bound to anything right now, then neither is Paulson, so I don't care if he's signed his name in blood on some eight page letter of no consequence, it's not binding on him.

Steve "Slight difference - Both franchises will have yadda yadda lie yadda lie lie yadda lie..."

(When everything Steve has said is full of lies, it's really doesn't matter what you quote Steve as having said. A lie is a lie is a lie.)

Timbers will sell over 20,000 season tickets for their 1st MLS season just like the Seattle Sounders have for the 2009 MLS season, and they will be charging 2-3x what they presently charge per ticket. The Sounders stopped selling season tickets after they sold 22,000 tickets. The Portland Timbers always outdrew the Sounders in the USL-1. The only reason the Timbers may not outdraw the Sounders at the MLS level will be the Timbers max capacity at the new PGE Park will be lower than the Sounders Qwest Field max capacity layout.

George Whateverthefrak Seldes "You'll pardon me for asking, but what the hell is M Paulson's personal guarantee worth..."

I know you right wing extremist freaks are don't believe in the rule of law, but everyone else in the world does. Maybe contracts were unenforceable under Bush/Cheney, but they aren't in charge anymore, are they?

The rule of law has returned to America.

@ Frank: "I know you right wing extremist freaks are don't believe in the rule of law, but everyone else in the world does. Maybe contracts were unenforceable under Bush/Cheney, but they aren't in charge anymore, are they?"

Yes, you definitely help people evaluate the quality of your arguments when you start with the ad hominem. I especially enjoy how the people who don't want to give the corporado public funds are called "right wing extremists." Last I checked, the right wing was all about giving public money to private corporations. So which of us are acting like a right-wing extremist, the ones who want to put public funds at risk to bolster a corporate moneymaking scheme, or the ones who want the corporado to fund his own stadia.

Meanwhile, you might want to revisit your contract law, which requires a reciprocal obligation between the contracting parties (consideration).

I repeat -- if it is true, as we are repeatedly assured -- that Portland has assumed no obligations, then neither has Paulson.

Garrett:

Gotcha...just figured they were one in the same. Apologies to the Bob T. here on Blue Oregon. I've insulted you far worse that I even knew.

Bob T:

Well, I don't know about that. I'd be more insulted if you confused me with either Randy Leonard or Sam Adams.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Bill Michtom:

The continual, and obsessive, search for a major league sports franchise is not an indication of being a "major league city." It is a pathetic search for external validation.

Bob T:

Yup - and Portland has a long way to go (not that I want it to be the Seattle of Oregon). You can turn on the top of the hour radio news at times and before 60 seconds go by you're being informed that "the goat at the zoo has died". That's like news from "Hee Haw". I like it, but if Portland was a major league city we'd see that news only on page 87 of the Big Zero.

Bob Tiernan Portland

George Anonymuncule Seldes:

I especially enjoy how the people who don't want to give the corporado public funds are called "right wing extremists." Last I checked, the right wing was all about giving public money to private corporations.

Bob T:

Yeah, they do that. But it's odd that they have that reputation while the left doesn't, considering the record. Some people are so stupid about this, too. I was listening to KBOO one morning a few months ago (as I often do) and one jerk said that people like Ayn Rand and Milton Freidman were all about handing out corporate welfare. Well, hardly. That was just another jerk who was told (ny another ill-informed person) what Rand and Freidman stood for on that issue. Try reading their own writings next time.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Steve Maurer:

One thing I have to say is that I'm glad at least some of the conservatives have begun to come back to their original roles: not as flag wavers for kleptocratic Republican functionaries and their plutocratic CEO cronies on corporate welfare...

Bob T:

I have no idea what you're talking about. You make it sound like {most} of the conservatives here have re-found the light on corporate welfare while the so-called progressives and other Blue people here have been fighting the good fight w/o them. The record shows otherwise: that most of both sides were dishing out the corporate welfare and privileged legislation. This soccer-baseball park scam, to get back to this latest, could be squashed only by the Blues who make up the overwhelming majority here. But nothing happened, just like nothing happened when big, bad Bechtel got a sweetheart deal with Port of Portland land because they built us a light rail line (and used tax dollars to boot!). You guys want light rail so much that Halliburton could make a similar deal and you guys won;t make a peep).

If there's a recall effort on Sam Adams by summer, I hope that a lot of the signatures are by people angry over this scam. They will not be separated from those angry at just the lying and stuff. But I won't count on it.

Sam Adams and Randy Leonard were not bought, by the way. They simply believe in this sort of "governing".

Bob Tiernan Portland

"Steve "Slight difference - Both franchises will have yadda yadda lie yadda lie lie yadda lie..."

Frank, I really need a piture of yuou with both hands over your ears saying "I can't hear you."

If MLS fails in Portland, it could lead to the most expensive venue for youth soccer on the planet.

Similarly, a new AAA Ballpark sounds like a great idea, unless proximity to drug peddlers, homelessness, and wandering bands of scofflaws makes you feel uncomfortable. I've taken my kids (on Max) to evening events at the Rose Garden and Memorial Colliseum and was amazed there was no PPB presence, especially near the Max station. And don't tell me about Tri-Met security, I've seen them walk the other way when outnumbered by foul mouthed/abusive teenagers.

"So having an MLS soccer team here would help attract and keep skilled knowledge workers from all over the globe."

Wow, sounds like soccer could be a linchpin.

Perhaps a soccer stadium should be built in SoWa near the tram.

As the official BO gadfly, I want to support both Bob Tiernan and George Anonymuncule Seldes.

I was accused of being a right-wing Republican when I first started posting here, because most Dems and Repubs only know of two possible political perspectives.

Real libertarians, as Bob T. points out, do not support corporate welfare; the same is true for real progressives. Only Dems and Repubs support corporate welfare.

Ah, I'd forgotten the real basis for Torrid Joe's anti-Bojack views:

http://bojack.org/2006/06/name_that_troll.html

@ Torridjoe: "George, your point is utterly meaningless. The deal doesn't happen without a legally binding agreement under the current terms. If you want to complain about the deal if it changes significantly upon formalization, fine, do it then--but saying nobody's Signed anything is irrelevant to whether the proposal is any good."

Ah, but that's the point. Many people in Portland have already concluded that the deal is questionable. Even more so since, after months of Lents misdirection, there's a whole new approach to the baseball piece and there's suddenly a mystery $15M hole in it that, apparently, the CITY is taking responsibility to plug, rather than telling Paulson it's his problem. And when people objected to this, one of the first things they were told is that the deal isn't final and that the city hasn't committed itself to anything.

In other words, we're at the part in this particular three-card monte game where the dealer is whizzing the cards back and forth faster than the eye can see, the better to perform the sleight of hand and take the rubes' money.

It was all so urgent urgent urgent that we get a deal by 3/19 and then, suddenly, it wasn't so urgent, and we were being told that maybe the league would hold off on awarding the second team (assuming Vancouver gets the first).

If my point about Paulson having no binding commitment to anything right now is one that you find "utterly meaningless" then I can't imagine anything more useless than straining so hard to rebut it, while failing anyway. We get that you love this deal and, like Paulson, Adams, and Leonard, will say anything to get it through. We'll take as a given that anything opponents and skeptics say about the deal will provoke your ire.

Meanwhile, what would be actually useful, is if the city refuses to execute any agreement until the people of Portland, Multnomah County, and Oregon (all of whom are expected to kick in money to finance this thing) have had at least seven days from the date of the last change to the prospective deal to flyspeck the proposed agreement and consider its consequences. If it's such a wonderful deal, that should be no problem, right?

It seems Bogdanski elicits strong opinions from Torridjoe and Garrett

Torridjoe do you ever WORK? I can't help but notice you posted a lot on weekdays during business hrs. Maybe your real hatred for Jack is that he calls the city on the unfunded fire and police pension mess that will explode sooner or later. I'm sure you would like the voters to know as little as possible about that.

As for Jack's attitude toward this deal he speaks for a lot of us who are tired of CoP leaders playing with toys but doing nothing about things like deteriorating city streets, lack of social services; you know the nitty-gritty stuff that should be taken care of 1st.

As for being told it's a good deal and we won't be on the hook? Sorry I have lost trust in the ability/willingness of city leaders to ensure that. This is the same gang that gave us: -the tram that went $42m over budget -Tax deals to developers to develop condos in S. waterfront for all the biotech jobs that have yet to materialize. -Insider deals where public participation is discouraged (notice of public hearing sent at the last minute) -The same guys getting rich (Homer Williams, Hoffman construction) the same sleazy insiders (Goldschmidt, Franscesconi)

These guys have zero credibility.

None.

Torrid:

"It's not interest...? What are you talking about? I'm talking about direct revenue and economic impact over the next dozen years or so. "

I am talking about the fact the Portland receiving hundreds of millions in direct revenue and economic impact over the next dozen years from risking $2.5 million is so mathamatically improbable its laughable.

Also only 2.5M at risk? I thougth they were going to issue bonds for MLS, the bonds are considered risk (it does not matter what/who backs the bonds)

why would others put up $$$ and assume the risk so Portland can collect hundreds of millions of dollars in direct revenue? it just does not pass the logic test.

"The bonds are considered risk, but the City is not obligated to pay them back--Paulson is. Thus no risk." Are you kidding me?? The city of portland IS OBLIGATED to pay back the bonds . I challenge you find one underwriter who will issue those bonds in the primary market with the City of Portland having NO obligation to pay them back.

"What does that have to do with the viability of partially funding public construction for public growth? Are you suggesting Portland should help Intel build infrastructure for private profit?"

Sure, if giving Intel $85M means 1000 good jobs vs. Paulson promise of maybe 300 jobs.

"they're currently agreeing to finance $49mil in bonds--with guaranteed repayment."

I really wish I had flash cards. We can say CoP is insulated, but just saying Paulson will pay all the bills except for $2.5M is unrealistic. When a normal person (or bank) makes a loan, they look at how able the person is able to pay them back.

For example, lets say CoP pays you $60K/yr. A bank will probably not loan you enough to buy a $2M house. Why? Because you can't pay it back.

So what is Paulson and his teams going to take on: $82.5M in debt over 30 years to pay for construction $40M in debt to buy a franchise At 6% this means he is going to have to generate $8.9M to pay the loans back.

Add his 300 new jobs at a cost of $50K/yr each ($30K to the employee after benes which is prob half what you make for blogging on taxpayer time) is another $15M/yr

So now Paulson's empire has to generate about $24M/yr to pay this stuff off.

I think I figured about 560K tickets/yr for the Bevos and TImbers. So each ticket will have to generate: $24M/560K = $42.86

Granted he is going to sell some drinks and t-shirts, but expecting a family of 4, on average, to bungle up $170 just for debt coverage is unrealistic.

So what happens if Paulson can't make up the diff? The taxpayers get to pay for deficit since thye must pay back the bonds they take out for construction in addition to your work time spent blogging.

Anyways, you tell me what the average Timbers/Bevos ticket is and average attendance and I can amend my figures.

Have to comment on the "how weird is the Miami market" point. It's pretty weird. You could make better returns on first class cricket than on MLS in Miami. Seriously. I don't think either would be profitable, but it's a clue that it may not be a real good comparison...with anything!

Vancouver just got their franchise...is Portland not far behind??

"Apparently not far at all... word is Friday morning."

Oh goody, we beat out Ottawa and St Louis. SO this is what the major leagues are all about!

Now go back to work TorridJoe.