Karol is willing to go to places with her writing that many fear to tread. In my book, that's some serious bravery.

Amen.

Of course I don't know many black kids who are thrown you of their homes because their family finds out the kid is black either.

Their are of course differences in the social dynamics and experiences of being non-heterosexual or being a racial minority that has and in some was still discriminated against, but that equal rights for non-heterosexuals is somehow wrongly treading on the sacred grounds of the civil rights moment is a bit off. Not that Kollymore is doing that herself, but some of what she says is similar to a vocal segment of the black community that get pissed that gays even compare their advocacy for their civil rights and push for equality to the cviil rights movement of the 60s.

Psst... Carla... it's Collymore not Kollymore. You made me goof her last name up too.

ugh...

thrown out of...

I need to start drinking.

The the "K" on her first name. It throws me too. You'd think that as someone used to using a "K" for both my first and last name for coming up on 45 years now that I'd not be thrown by it. But my Landlord's name is Carol and I've written it so damn many times on checks over the many years that I've rented from her that it's a devil of a habit to break.

Z, I don't think I've ever called ANYONE a troll. Troll's a nasty word. And the post I wrote on gay v. black was two years ago. And I would write it now.

I think equality is equality and all people need to jump on the wagon. I just think the experiences of blackness (instant judgement) versus sexual orientation are different. I don't think they are unrelated though. People of color and the GLBT community have 100% of things to agree on and fight for TOGETHER. There does, however, need to be eyes open on both sides of the struggles of each. Please read the entire article so you can see the whole picture I was painting.

And Z, I wasn't directing all my comments at you and I should have made that clear. And I don't think you are troll; you make great comments all over Blue O and I respect them even if I don't agree with all of them.

Last one and I'm going to stop reading.

Z, You say I'm knee jerk and that could be fair, but I spend entirely too much time thinking about what I want to say for me to agree with that. Saying that I called you a "troll" is bothering me because I think anyone could go through BO with a fine tooth comb and no one would find me even using that word. I want this space to be a place of reasonable discourse and I hope that I won't have messed that up for anyone.

For years we've heard that contributors choose the topics and only editorial control is excercised. That sounds a lot different than "having a beat". Which is it?

Karol answered that in the interview. Read it again.

I did say, my dear Jamie, no one should ever be in closet. My point was, if there is a space of danger, a gay person can retreat if there is fear of lack acceptance. I cannot. That's all.

I never, ever want someone to be in the closet. The world - especially people of color - need MORE examples to show that yes, Virginia, Black people can be gay.

I think equality is equality and all people need to jump on the wagon.

I don't always agree with what you have to say, and most of it revolves around what Jamie points out - just as I don't know what it's like to walk a mile in your shoes, you don't know what it's like to walk a mile in mine.

But... I absolutely love how you phrased that - "equality is equality and all people need to jump on the wagon." Simply beautiful!

Even when I disagree with you I know that you're being bluntly honest with us (worth a hell of a lot all on it's own) and that it takes, as Carla said, some serious bravery for you to tackle the subjects that you do.

We each have unique shoes, don't we? I appreciate that because we can learn from one another. I think we are all a little bit right on this one simply because we've walked similar walks. Different, yet exactly the same. I look forward to continuing the conversation.

" But I sense from this and other of your posts that you believe that the ability to hide is an advantage. That's where we disagree."

As neither black nor gay (but willing to learn on both), it seems like a classic case of grass-is-greener. Nobody has to shout I'm black, step back, get used to it, and that sounds like an advantage to closeted and even repressed gays who wish there was simply no choice to make. On the other hand, when you feel it coloring (pun intended) every public interaction you have and even a lot of private ones, I can see how you'd think being able to fake the funk for a while would be nice. This will sound so limo liberal, but I remember one of the more shocking realizations from Black Like Me was at first how difficult it was to connect the behavior of others to his new skin color. It immediately affected every interaction he'd previously taken for granted, without even being able to get a word out or "present" appropriately for polite company. After a while he just wanted to be able to "get away" from being black, but there was nowhere to go.

What sucks is that having to be ashamed at all--in any context, absurdly wishing you were some other oppressed minority for their particular coping mechanism--should be a common rallying point for blacks and gays (and black gays, and others) instead of a wedge. Karol puts herself out there and takes the feedback that people give her seriously, and as Carla said she does it on subjects a lot more intimate than "Wyden for HHS?" Pretty brave, but it's crucial.

Karol Collymore wrote: "I just think the experiences of blackness (instant judgement) versus sexual orientation are different"

I can certainly agree with you, Karol, that the experience of blackness (instant judgment) and queerness (constant paranoia) are different, at least for those GLBT people who can pass for straight. Contrary to your argument, though, this is hardly all of us. There are a whole lot of GLBT folk - commonly derided as sissies, faggots, bulldaggers, and dykes - who don't get invited to the A-list "straight-acting" parties. Instead, they spend their lives subject to "instant judgment" every bit as much as you.

Where our views begin to part, perhaps, is in the value judgments I hear about the relative subjective experiences - positive and negative - of "instant judgment" versus "constant paranoia", for that segment of the GLBT community to which this distinction might actually apply.

There are objective differences as well, such as the social distinctions resulting from the difference between the Black experience of ancestral slavery to third to second to struggling for first class citizenship, versus the historic and continuing illegality of one's existence and continual risk - upon discovery - of anything from shunning to immediate physical attack, as still exists for GLBT people in most of the world and much of America to this day.

Certainly the Black and GLBT communities approach our respective struggles for civil rights from different origins. Where I hope for greater agreement in the future is in common recognition that everyone deserves civil rights, and that no community owns those words, nor is deserving of special or unique respect for their particular struggle to achieve what these words represent.

Ultimately, a struggle for justice is just that. And once we stop allowing ourselves to focus on the distinctions and differences which divide us, we can bring that much more energy to bear achieving liberty and justice for all.

JJG-- No one here is assigned a beat, by me or anyone else. But certainly each of us write about the things that interest us. Leslie often writes about sustainability, Jenson economics, etc.

Thanks Bill R. I got to play model for a day and I think every woman should get to do it. So fun. And thanks everyone for the thought provoking comments.

Karol, you seem to be assigning an advantage to gay people because more of us can "pass".

What does African-American experience and history tell us about that phenomenon?

As an additional FWIW, we have very self-consciously tried to recruit non-white, non-male contributors. Consider this another opportunity to mention it. There are other aspects of diversity, too, and finding people with specific interests is key to keeping the content at BlueO somewhat broader. We originally had a poet and wanted the content to extend beyond purely political matters, but that's been harder.

In any case, Karol is a valued editor and the only possible criticism one could have is that we don't hear enough from her.

Doretta, I think as far as an individual keeping herself out of danger, yes, there can be an advantage to being gay v. a person of color. I of course realize that that doesn't apply to every person that is GLB or T nor ever person of color and there is obviously cross over where that just doesn't apply.

I know the acute fear of walking down the street in the dark and hoping that no one calls the police because a black person is in front of their house. I've had people call my office to complain about seeing a Black person in front of their house and "OH can you believe it!? I don't see that kind around here!" I know intimately how that feels. I would like to hear more about how that feels for other people too.

Black people also used to - and probably currently do - pass to take advantage of the situations at hand. If Blacks could pass for Whites, they could go to better schools, get better jobs, even simply not working in the fields but working in the house. I wish no one in the closet, race of gay. But do I understand the fear and wanting to retreat in certain situations? Absolutely.

There's no easy answer - just continuing the discussion. Again, the overarching point is we can work together and start being really open about how we feel individually. I know a Black lesbian might have a whole different point of view as would someone transgendered or a Latino gay male. As Jeff just said, we need more voices.

Lee Donnell wrote: "You most certainly can! Most good churches (I know ours does) have psychologists affiliated with them that can provide treatment"

This is highly damaging misinformation. The so-called "reparative therapy" Lee Donnell alludes to is opposed by the following organizations:

American Psychiatric Association American Psychological Association American Medical Association American Academy of Pediatrics American Counseling Association American Federation of Teachers The Interfaith Alliance National Association of School Psychologists National Association of Social Workers National Association of Secondary School Principals National Education Association People seeking actual information on this subject - as opposed to fundamentalist christian delusions - should start by reading here, then following the extensive citations listed from this article:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_expr.htm

You most certainly can! Most good churches (I know ours does) have psychologists affiliated with them that can provide treatment. It was a disease up to and including when the American Psychological Association's "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual II" came out. It is the only disease ever dropped for DSM III and IV, under lobbying pressure. Since NOT ONE DISEASE has ever been "rehabilitated" to be "normal", you MUST admit that the situation is at least a little suspicious, no matter what your orientation is.

Or perhaps the distinction was based on non-medical bullshit, rather archaic "moral" values from the traditional--often religious--past.

There's no evidence that "conversions" work, that I know of. Can anyone provide peer reviewed evidence?