Personally, I accept the apology, smile back and give a wave, and move on. I find that not letting this stuff get to me makes life a lot easier. But that's just me.

There's also the third option of giving the person the benefit of the freaking doubt. Sometimes, when people apologize, they do so sincerely and learn a lesson. I myself have done this after not noticing a bicyclist. I feel like an asshole, and then I wave to at least try to show that I recognize my assholery. And then I resolve to be more aware.

Living in Portland has taught me a lot about looking out for bikes and about teaching bikers and drivers how to live together. And it's also taught me that there are jerks on both sides of the eternal bike/car arguments. This article is a much better example of the latter than the former. All you're going to do here is give drivers who already want to be thoughtless jerks a reason to further their resentment. That's not going to help you out there on the road.

While I am not a daily bicycle commuter, I ride quite a bit. I have never had a car purposefully barrel towards me. That seems crazy.

I agree with Kari, there are both clueless drivers and idiotic bicyclists that give all of us good folk, drivers and bicyclists alike, a bad name.

I like biking. I Tivo and watch most cycling events including the TDF. And I think a healthy percentage of cyclists are fucking jerks. For just one example, I remember one afternoon I was driving southbound on Albina. I came to a signal and a cyclist was stopped, facing northbound. The signal changed, I waved the cyclist on to give him the right of way (He wanted to turn left). I did so out of respect for a fellow cyclist. He swore at me.

It seems to me that most cyclists have the arrogant pissed off attitude of the above author, who is happy to verbally abuse complete strangers ad feel ok about it. They carry on as if they are blessing the road they ride upon and that car drivers should be happy for the blessed event. Get real asshole. As one respondent suggested above, I would like to see how you contributed to the scenes you described, you Narcissistic bitch.

Angry people meeting each other on the road...never a good thing. Lots of other people are putting the energy that might otherwise be expended on anger, into helping conceive of and put in place, ways to make the road more easily negotiable for all road users.

There's definitely a sort of pecking order there. I've nearly been run over while walking by bicyclists, whom at the very best will maybe glance back to make sure I didn't end up lying on the pavement. I know it sounds funny, but it's not if you're crossing the street where there isn't a light, there's no traffic, and some moron on a bike thinks he can just blow through an intersection and stop sign and graze your back with his handlebars.

And yeah, I respect bicyclists plenty, kicking the oil habit and saving the environment. But it takes resources to make a bicycle. When I walk, all it takes is clothing and a pair of shoes. And yeah, I've nearly been run over by obnoxious drivers, too. The point is, there's a group that keeps getting forgotten in this whole debate and they happen to often be the majority, and it's pedestrians. I've never seen a cop pull someone over for taking a right hand turn while people are crossing in the intersection, I've never seen a bicyclist get in trouble for doing the same thing and narrowly missing someone crossing the street, or riding way too fast on some of the sidewalks in downtown Portland (especially along the Park Blocks). I've nearly had my dog run over while he was on leash by bicyclists who couldn't be bothered to look down. Yes, I have a lot of sympathy for bicyclists who get hit by cars, just like I have the same for pedestrians. But there really needs to be more of an effort in educating bicyclists in regards to pedestrians as well.

Yes, they are also dicks, but they are dicks in control of their vehicles. Your stupid grin tells me you are in control of nothing.<<<<<

Thanks.....

Submitted By : WAZCAT

Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong.

Most driver are incognizant of reality to begin with. I have one simple rule of driving, never make the other driver/cyclist put on their brakes unintentionally because of me. Many cyclist and pedestrians are also in this category (incognizant of reality)and never make eye contact with others. Always look at the other persons head. If they are not moving it to look at their surroundings, they are dangerous. Always watch the front tire of the cars around you, first indication of a stupid move.

The other problem Portland has, is one of the most screwed up traffic light systems in the world. When approaching a controlled intersections I always check the walk/wait pedestrian signal to gauge my progress. If its still on walk and I'm x number of feet from the intersection, I can proceed at speed. When it changes to the flashing wait I should have x number of seconds before it changes to a solid wait and then the traffic light will turn yellow in x number of seconds. Unfortunately there is no standard x number between solid wait-traffic yellow-red light. Might be 5 seconds, might be 1. There are the new "countdown" pedestrian signals, but they are few and far between. I just want to be able to know what my timing options are as I approach an intersection on a consistent basis. Is that to much to ask for?

A huge missing piece in all this is the pedestrian. I work downtown and go out walking as much as possible. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen (and could have touched) bicyclists barreling through busy crosswalks, or dangerously weaving down sidewalks, usually to avoid going the right way on a one way street. The cars are easy to see and avoid, the bikes not so much. Hey righteous bikers, my shoe leather is even gentler on the planet than your bicycle. Please show some respect.

Oh goody, there hadn't been a thread recently where drivers and cyclists could hurl insults at each other. This item is especially good because it was INTENDED to provoke precisely that sort of response. Nice job, and keep taking the bait, folks, you might want to get out a dictionary, however, to find some obscure swear words that you've skipped over to this point.

I've been on both sides of the road. Tend to always take the biker's POV, but don't deny what Kari mentions. I've two questions.

First, we all do stupid things. We have a billion ways to deny responsibility, but what would you like the person to do when they realize they've just pulled a boner in front of you? I've done the same. Someone actually stops to apologize and I read him the riot act. It would be easier to gain sanity in the situation if there were a protocol to fall back on. So, propose one. How do I say, omg, I almost just killed you and I am so sorry (particularly when you're in a hurry and can't say that)? Confession: some of those boneheads are us cyclists that once in a blue moon rent a car and then end up pulling out in front of a pedestrian, trying to monitor the parking garage at the downtown rental place, the one-ways, the light rail, the shopping cart coming against the signal, etc.

Second, why does the middle of the road case always get the attention? I'm not whinging, TA, it is reassuring to know that my frustration anytime I try to go anywhere without a car is shared. But what about the ones with the attitude that sees you from a long way off, is irritated that you exist and does their level best to harass you every way possible? Yeah, it's against the law. The question is why we accept that the police can sit and watch a blatant attempted vehicular homicide and shrug and say, "nothing happened". We've all seen it over and over if you are stupid enough to bother to contact the police. Where's the community outrage? If someone brandished a firearm from their vehicle I bet lots of concerned gawkers would be on the cell in a heartbeat. A stranger speaks to a child, they'd throw up a civilian roadblock. Those same people see motor vehicles physically intimidate cyclists and say nothing. They look for ways to blame the cyclist. When was the last time you heard someone say, "oh, he might have been brandishing a firearm because he was really miffed that day...". Trying to physcially take the roadspace allocated to a cyclist by force, with an attitude, is worse than the examples I mentioned. Blaming the victim before the playing field is level is a sign of backsliding on the principle, imho.

So, a second confession. When you can afford nice wheels and give it up because of the overall level of irresponsibility and people that are simply to lazy to do it or ignorant to get it decide to target you with their vehicle and the police don't care and you're constantly treated like an indigent or car-owner wannabee, one is tempted to play the fool as well. It's always the same. We beg for equal consideration when we are due greater. I'm not asking for greater, just equal and gratitude that we don't demand our due. You're either a part of the solution or the problem; you can't be neutral. Not left-wing absolutism, but a recognition of the everyday reality that the material culture has shackled us with.

BTW, to continue to brutally flog a dead equine... This was a great post, done as Gonzo Journalism, but would have been vapid had it tried to put on an air of objectivity. I really think it is underutilized in articulating social policy! BO- the Prez, not the blog- should do a Gonzo State of the Union. Why not? He can't promise success, realistically, since he hasn't tried yet. Why not put it in purely biased, personal terms about what his vision is and let people use that as a baseline to judge his accomplishments rather than starting off by trying to sell merchandise that ain't on the shelf? "On the Campaign Trail" shows the material fits the approach. He invalidated a number of it's useful maxims. He owes us a replacement. Yup, the SoU should basically be readings from "On the Campaign Trail with Barak Obama". I'll bet he did the trick with leaving a beer in the hotel frig. so a reporter would drink it and replace it with a six pack.

Ever since that rash of bike-commuter deaths last year, I have adopted a practice of looking closely for bicyclists and be sure to give them extra space. If the meeting is at an intersection, I wait a bit longer and maybe half the time I get eye-contact. Then a nod and they proceed. I lose what? Maybe 5 seconds. I want to encourage cyclists -- seeing those sweating hard bodies in the summer at close-to Amsterdam levels makes me pleased yet again that Portland is a leader in so many transportation ways. My bicycling days are over, but I welcome those who flock to that form of transportation. Ride-on!

Am*dam levels, indeed! Portland is getting to the level of the cycle in Europe. Personally I find that Portland is about equal with the worst Dutch cities, which is quite good for the US. A friend that teaches the equivalent of 3rd grade in Leiden had her class do essays on this topic lately, and one of the responses was very cute as well as a rather good description of the state of affairs. I include the Dutch because it is very compact, and some of the words do not translate. viets is helemaal #1, dan

voetganger tegen hond, bakerviets tegen voetganger; voetganger tegen voetganger, hond tegen snoorviets/broomviets; snoorviets/broomviets tegen auto; auto tegen truck.

truck is helemaal het laste.

Basically, Bikes always get the right of way. Then,

Dogs yield to pedestrians, the big three-wheeler cart in mounted to the front of a bike that bakers traditionally used yield to pedestrians; Pedestrian yields to pedestrian, 1-4 cylinder scooters and bikes yield to dogs; cars yield to 1-4 cylinder scooters and bikes, trucks yield to cars.

Trucks have to yield to everything.

That's pretty accurate. It's true that if a stray dog knocks someone down is reported as a hit and run.

"And then you drive away as if a smile and a cheery wave as if that makes it all better? Screw you, Magoo. It makes it far worse."

Actually it does not amke it worse. If you were a true Christian, you wouldn't be so uptight about it and make insinuations about the driver's real intentions. True Christians forgive and forget. They also know this - forgive the sinner but not the sin.

Getting uptight over it makes it worse - not the driver's wave and smile. It also shows that someone needs some anger management counseling.

Lighten up.

Bikers need to bike defensively period. A car will always win the battle between bike and car. I've seen enough idiot drivers and enough idiot cyclists to know fault lies on both sides. A ghost bike sits on Belmont for my friend Noah who was hit by a drunk girl and died because he wasn't wearing a helmet. Drunk girl shouldn't have been driving, yet I know if Noah had been on a bike road or wearing a helmet he'd probably be alive right now.

T.A. - You assume too much of others.

If I lived in Portland or Eugene full time, I would probably be used to the bicycle stuff and I would be a much safer driver - from your narrow perspective. But I don't live there.

I am reminded of the story on 60 Minutes a couple years back about a video created in a college environment about perception. People were tasked to watch a video and track a bouncing ball. The video starts up, and two groups of three people are each bouncing a ball back and forth. Behind them are two elevators, with odd markings on the sides of the elevators. You watch a little while, and then the video ends. You are told you probably missed something. We rerun the video, and see that someone in a monkey suit literally walked through the middle of this strange scene - and you didn't see them. Something like 90% of the people that watch the video don't see the guy in the monkey suit. Why? Because they were tasked to watch the ball.

My brain is trained when I drive to watch out for other cars, because that is where the danger comes from. Secondarily, I am trained to watch crosswalk areas or corners for people on foot. I am just not "trained" to see bicylces mid-block. Where I live in Central Oregon, unless "Bike Oregon" is clogging the streets, I hardly ever see a bicycle.

So, when I visit Portland or Eugene, it is actually difficult for me to see bicycles, especially where I don't expect them. In the last two years, I probably have less than 10 hours drive time in Portland and Eugene. In that 10 hours, I have had three cases of bicycles running out of cross streets where they should have stopped at stop signs - and I didn't have a stop sign. I have had two cases of bicycles running the same direction I am on the side of the street who suddenly move in front of me. When I do see a bicycle in traffic in an area I'm driving I slow down - but frankly my brain is not "conditioned" to look for bicycles like it would be if I lived in areas where they are more common. In other words -

I'm your worst enemy.

Now, I didn't make a choice to be your enemy. I just am.

On top of that, I'm color blind in a few shades of red and green.

So - who has the responsibility for your life on a bike?

Certainly I have some responsibility. To the best of my abilities I will do everything I know how to do to not kill or injure you.

But - so do you. T.A. - I don't know anything about your bicycle riding habits, how you dress, etc. But if you put your unprotected body in front of a vehicle weighing 1000 or more pounds, moving at 10, 20, or 30 mph - the forces of physics (momentum) are in play. There is only so much a "perfect" human can do, and most of us are imperfect.

If I have the experience of one irresponsible bicycle rider incident per each 2 hours of urban driving, what must it be like for someone who drives in urban traffic one hour per day, five days a week? Well, my math would show approximately 125 such "incidents" a year per driver. It's easy to see how on the automotive side of these incidents, the drivers might be thinking:

F-U, you grinning Idiot.

Screw You Magoo.

You are stupid.

T.A. - you might want to examine both sides of the coin.

I drive knowing full well the potential destructive power of my car; I am constantly worried about injuring someone when there are cyclists or pedestrians about.

Does this mean that I've never had to slam on my brakes? Nope. When everyone follows the rules of the road, things are generally fine. But sometimes people like to make stuff up as they go along and it can be dangerous.

Like the cyclist who I almost never saw because he decided to off-road far to the right of the actual street and then enter traffic diagonally in front of me, using a hand signal only when he was already in front of my quickly-braking car.

Or like the pedestrians that I see waiting to cross the road who, even though my light is green, decide to take a few steps into the street. And then I have to slam on my brakes because I'd rather risk getting rear-ended then assume that the pedestrian isn't going to take a few more steps into my path.

My point is that assholes can be found anywhere: Behind the wheel, behind the handlebars, or walking. What irks me is people who don't have any respect for the destructive power of automobiles -- and these people can be on a bike or walking, too.

I've noticed about 50% of the time it's a car with Washington plates. Let's consider that our crosswalk laws are absolutely different than anyone elses. It usually probably really is ignorance. Let's start by not giving a license to pilot 1000s pounds of metal to an age group that you don't allow to do give their own consent to go on a school picknick!

How 'bout a shout out to everyone from Washington! Get real. If you want to not go as far as Portland in transportation, and all our fine progressive agenda, great. Stay home. You're here because we have something you don't have as much of, which is progressive politics. The absence of a sales tax is the presence of progressive policy, arguably. You have to take the rough with the smooth. Don't come here for the shopping and dis our cyclist and pedestrians. Take it all or leave it all alone.

I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen (and could have touched) bicyclists barreling through busy crosswalks, or dangerously weaving down sidewalks, usually to avoid going the right way on a one way street.

A great deal of the problems being discussed here could be alleviated by licensing bicyclists. They would then be required to take a test proving they understand their rights and responsibilities, such as where it is legal and illegal to ride on a sidewalk in Portland.

Licensing would also provide a way to identify cyclists who break traffic laws instead of allowing them to pedal anonymously off . And for those concerned about the state budget there is the added bonus of increased revenue to the state from licensing cyclists.

Anybody see a downside to the idea?

Posted by: joel dan walls | Dec 4, 2008 7:13:34 AM

Oh goody, there hadn't been a thread recently where drivers and cyclists could hurl insults at each other. This item is especially good because it was INTENDED to provoke precisely that sort of response. Nice job, and keep taking the bait, folks, you might want to get out a dictionary, however, to find some obscure swear words that you've skipped over to this point.

Carbon mossback!

licensing cyclists.

Anybody see a downside to the idea?

Anybody got an anecdote where this worked with a car? One of the 42nd Ave neighborhood associations has documented a car that comes down the avenue at over 60, 5-10 times a week for 2 years and the police have taken the information and done nothing. Licenses are used by the authorities to track you and collect revenue. As a matter of principle they serve no useful function for you.

Petty, stupid post. I would say that if it was written by a driver targeted at bicyclists too. I think you should keep your rants to yourself and turn that anger into something constructive.

"Petty, stupid post"

Not really. It just a way for an uptight person to vent and show how some people need to either chill out, lighten up or find some anger management counceling.

Talk about making a mountian out of a molehill.

I was a bike messenger in NYC for many, many years, and one thing I've noticed since moving here is that bicyclists in PDX are extremely presumptuous. This post is a good example of that, even though you plainly admit that in any bike-car collision you're gonna get the fuzzy end of the lollipop.

To be sure, there is only one way to ride in the city, where you must share the road with cars: you have to assume that every single driver is on a God-given mission to KILL you. This served me well in NYC, and despite having one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, I have only a couple minor scars. It serves me even better in PDX, where people are inherently polite, by and large. I get the impression you've never done a lot of cycling in another large city.

But in any event, does this sort of thing really have any place on Blue Oregon?

Okay, next time I almost run over a cyclist, I'll give him/her the finger.

Really, what's wrong with realizing you've made a mistake and waving in apology? It's not like either of us are actually going to stop so I can apologize in person.

I'm tired of the holier-than-thou cyclists. Every day I drive through a major bike commute corridor in my neighborhood, and every day I see cyclists who don't signal and blow through stop signs because they don't want to lose momentum. I now drive extra carefully through this area because I'm concerned about being hit by a reckless bicyclist.

Licensing bicyclists and/or bikes as a means of getting a higher level of adherence to traffic regulations from people riding bikes is impractical for a lot of reasons. Just think about it for awhile. Some of them are very obvious. There was a long conversation about this in the bikeportland.org forums not so long ago. A search should bring it up fairly easily.

I've never had a near collision with a biker but have had a couple of close-calls with other drivers (and one actual collision). Let me tell you that the "sheepish grin" is just a reflexive response to the incident that is followed by quite a bit of thinking about what just happened (and what might have happened). These experiences are pretty intense for the driver as well and they live with you for years afterward.

I'm not making excuses. A driver has a responsibility much greater than a biker because a biker isn't likely to kill someone if they make a mistake. All I'm trying to say is don't assume that the driver who grins at you does so because they think that will make it all better. Some of them probably never think about it again. But a lot of them do and it does effect their future behavior.

"...one thing I've noticed since moving here is that bicyclists in PDX are extremely presumptuous."

A-fucking-men, Chris.

Any time you are on a bike and you are assuming that people in autos are looking out for you, you're messing up big time.

Realize you're at the bottom end of a the food chain, and act accordingly.

As a former bike messenger, I agree: Everyday in Portland I see cyclists making unsafe (yet legal) decisions that simply boggle my mind.

"The person who truly does not see me is the real danger; I ride in fear of those morons every time I pedal out of my driveway."

Great! That's definitely the ONLY attitude to have while riding a bike in heavy traffic.

People makes mistakes and bikes are difficult to see through all the blind spots and obstacles of a car. And there is no legislation on the planet that can change the fact. deal with it and stop whining.

I came inches away from being hit by a Beetle last night. It was making an illegal right turn; I was in the bike lane, lit up and going straight.

We managed to avoid each other. I felt the adrenaline rush, but couldn't be bothered to get angry about it. He f---ed up, and together we fixed it.

1. "Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal Molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong." I agree.

2. On the road, watch out for (be polite to) others and stay within your reaction time.

3. In a collision, the relatively worse protected you are, the more likely you will suffer physically; the relatively better protected you are, the more likely you will suffer morally.

I bike to PSU and back through the Hawthorne bridge corridor. I regularly get cut off by cars and other cyclists. I also see other cyclists doing stupid shit that gives cyclists a bad name. Some of my pet peeves:

If you are driving a car and you're changing lanes to get through traffic, please don't cut me off just because I'm on a bike. This happens to me ALL THE TIME, and sometimes I nearly ram into the car.

If you're riding a bike over the Hawthorne bridge, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN. I'm sick as shit of these assholes who insist on riding as fast as possible through a mixed-traffic area. When I am trying to get around a husband and a wife pushing a double-wide stroller that is taking up 3/4 of the bridge sidewalk, don't ride my ass and start ringing your bell incessantly at me until I get out of your precious way. You're an asshole.

Don't run red lights. Especially don't run red lights when you come up from behind me and I'm waiting for the light to turn green, because I probably ride faster than you on a straightaway and I'm going to have to take the lane to pass you. Either wait for a damn green or ride fast enough that you don't hit the reds.

If you are driving a car down a two-way and a cyclist coming the other way signals that they want to turn left, please don't STOP and wait for them to go. If you wouldn't do it for a car, don't do it for a cyclist. It takes far longer for us to wait until you stop than it would for you to just go by.

"Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal Molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong"

Sounds like an anger management problem to me. If both sides get the help in that area, and manage it better, then we wouldn't see such uptight and uncivil behavior that is shown and expressed in this. We have to realize that both the cyclists and the drivers have thier own culture thatthey live with and can't help or change what they do - even with legislation. So just swallow your pride, manage your anger, and just let it be.

Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong.

Sometimes the only commentary that fits the bill is uncivil. I'm not on board totally with TA on this one--but I support the use of uncivil dialogue when the situation warrants.

"my commute to work involves turning west off SE Milwaukie onto Powell to go over the Ross Island Bridge"

TA - you whiny c**k sucking wing nut, what time of day do you begin your commute?

What I love is when the cyclists run me down on the sidewalk. That's always fun.

my commute to work involves turning west off SE Milwaukie onto Powell to go over the Ross Island Bridge.

What are you nuts?? Why don't you take a two block detour and use the pedestrian/bike bridge over Powell. I ride all the time and one of the best things about a bike is you can go where cars can't. My bike is my main transportation but I don't ride on really busy streets like Powell, 39th, Burnside etc. that have a logical alternative (or a ped. bridge) a block or two to either side. Portland is way more bike friendly than most cities I've been in but some streets just werent made for bikes.

T.A. -- sounds like you need some blood pressure medicine, brother. Or a few anger management classes along with some basic tips on bicycle safety.

Your chosen route to work is a dangerous one. I wouldn't ride it. The Ross Island Bridge is a freeway when it is flowing freely; why would you risk life and limb following this route on a bike? The only way I would feel safe is if I walked my bike (like any pedestrian) until I got on the bridge itself.

In my experience, there are a lot of unaware automobile drivers out on the road. But a far graver problem is cyclists taking unnecessary risks or blatantly disregarding the rules of the road. Then, when the cyclist causes an accident, he vents on the hapless driver -- if he is lucky enough to have survived the contest with the car.

Rule #1: you are always vulnerable on a bike. In a contest between bike and car, the car always wins.

This morning I was on my way to the pediatric orthopedist with my Son who severed his middle finger a couple weeks ago while I was teaching him to ride his first bike at 3 years old. It was a horrific experience for all of us and I still suffer from a bit of PTSD. Maybe it was the PTSD that had me distracted when I pulled across Williams on Graham and just plainly didn't see the woman in the bike lane. She small and moving fast, I was big and slow. It was far from a collision but it was a confused moment that I felt terrible about.

She mouthed "a**hole" at me while I waved and said sorry. I truly was.

There are dramas playing out in the lives of everyone in and on each moving vehicle. Sh*t and accidents happen. Be safe, be aware, and share the road.

Todd!

Holy cow!

Take a deep breath.

They are not out to get you. They are just everyday folks living their everyday lives. You can be polite to them, and acknowledge their wave, cut them some slack, and let them get on with their day, having a slightly better image of bicyclists, or you can flip out, and die years earlier due to massive stress.

I rarely drive anymore and do almost everything on my xtracycle, so I know of which I speak. I am big, slow, and in the street. I also often carry my kidlets on the back.

Smile, tip your helmet, move on. Its not the end of your day, nor is it the end of theirs.

But in any event, does this sort of thing really have any place on Blue Oregon?

Well, yes. Funding for cycling infrastructure is a hot political topic here. Attitudes are important, though I don't know we try to culture them with many attractive stimuli. Many take an "you get it or you don't attitude", which may not build bridges and influence people, but, if you're honest is pretty much the reality we're saddled with.

The Sellwood Bridge is a disgrace to cycling as well as autos. Should be #1 on any infrastructure dollars project list!

Posted by: Carla Axtman | Dec 4, 2008 12:12:30 PM

Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong.

Sometimes the only commentary that fits the bill is uncivil. I'm not on board totally with TA on this one--but I support the use of uncivil dialogue when the situation warrants.

Amen, sister. A goodly amount of the social abuses in history have gone on because the language to express outrage was outrageous to use.

I would suggest to cyclist that an arrogant attitude need not necessarily be a show stopper if the public are well conditioned. In Am*dam you will get run over regularly on a sidewalk, but you always hear a "ding-ding" just before. It is amazing how many people don't mind being run down if you ding first. Seriously. It's a fact. It works.

... can't stand stupid-ass drivers either. But I think there oughta be some acknowledgment that there are stupid-ass bicyclists as well.

I have no idea at all what your gear looks like, or how or where you ride, TA, but here's some of what I've seen - just in the last week:

• All black clothing

Some people only own black clothing. I suppose they wear a reflective headband, but that's kind of defeating the point, isn't it? Why not have them wear a pink hollyhock as well.

Wow, I'm floored by any type of uncivil commentary towards drivers and bicyclists alike. There are protagonists on both sides of this issue, but engaging in verbal molotov-cocktail throwing is wrong. TA

Sometimes the only commentary that fits the bill is uncivil. I'm not on board totally with TA on this one--but I support the use of uncivil dialogue when the situation warrants. Carla Axtman

There may be road user confrontation situations that warrant uncivil language, but I'd say they're far and few between. Excepting situations where someone's been startled and reflexively blasts off some foul language, for the most part, the people going off on each other with profanity, simply lack good judgment and self control.

I've heard someone try make the argument that profanity or derogatory names used towards others in a tense traffic situation is a freedom of speech right. Maybe so, but generally, it's a stupid, pointless and potentially dangerous exercise of that right. There are many people on the road today that can't be trusted to just take the insult and uneventfully move on.

"but I support the use of uncivil dialogue when the situation warrants"

Most definately not a very nice or Christian attitude. No wonder your uptight about a lot of topics. You sure you aren't Republican?

T.A.,

Your last post on religion was absolutely brilliant. I agreed 100% with your positions that post. However, I take 100% exception with this post.

This post belongs in your diary or as a paper in a "Creative Writing Class," not on a blog.

Think about it. You could have written your opinion on the Portland Tribune story of the City of the Portland paying $7/gallon for biodiesel.

Yet, you write about something that a small minority of Oregonians give a hoot about in a manner that is more personal and creative than professional and profound.

My opinion, when I cut a bicyclist off, then he/she better say or do something otherwise we both go to our intended point b with that minor inconvience. I don't smile/grin and wave like a punk ass gentrifier who is clueless as to why the Blacks in my NE Portland neighborhood give me bad looks. More than likely I am eager to park, give him/her my piece of mind, hear his/her piece of mind, and then buy him/her a beer because the little shit is well...the little shit.

Some of these post sound like someone that's had an addiction threatened!

There are many people on the road today that can't be trusted to just take the insult and uneventfully move on.

Because if it goes wrong the cyclist can't as easily "move on" as you can. You're right about everyone's eggshell egos on display, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get 'ya!

hear his/her piece of mind, and then buy him/her a beer because the little shit is well...the little shit.

Well, we tried that with you and this isn't exactly positive payback.

TA -- you need an attitude adjustment. I don't want anyone on the road, in a car or on a bike, with your angry attitude. When people smile, wave and say "sorry", that makes me feel good. At least they acknowledged a mistake. And how do you know that they didn't feel horrible that they came close to hitting someone? Please, find a healthy way to deal with such anger; like will be much more pleasant for you and for those around you.

They only do it because they can't stand a black man being president, right TA?

Way for Blue Oregon to provide a nice balanced and reasonable editorial about the merits of bicycling and how best to provide safe and harmonious integration of bicycles and cars on our streets. . .

So when did Blue Oregon become the equivalent of Fox News for the left?

"SMALL MINORITY" - REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"LARGE MAJORITY" - REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE stop using these phrases. A minority by definition IS small. A majority, by definition, is large!!!!!!

How a person feels, and what they choose to do about it, on their own in private, is their business. How they feel and conduct themselves accordingly, on the road, is everyone's business if road rage is actively present. People are regularly getting hurt and/or hurting others because they aren't exercising enough personal self control, or making an effort to resolve problems on the road in a civil manner.

Like for example, those two guys last summer over on Missippi St.; both bike people, one a passenger in a car, the other on a bike. The perceived slight would have seemed petty to anyone reading the story, but these two guys managed to get in a physical fight over basically stupid stuff.

If the practice of using bikes for transportation continues to expand and become more popular, public pressure on some of the rude and dangerous to others, riding habits certain people on bikes indulge in, is inevitably going to come to bear. It's the comparatively(to the car) versatile and accessible nature of the bicycle that has allowed some of their users to evade most of the restraint motor vehicles are subject to; ignoring regulations such as stop signs and light, endangering pedestrians on and off the sidewalk. With more of them in use, I think that's going to be harder to get away with.

Over 40,000 per year killed annually in this country alone due to automobile crashes. That's like a 9/11 every month. If you don't get why T. A. might be a little upset with someone driving inattentively just think about it.

Automobiles are the work of the Devil.

Before you get behind the wheel you better have a good reason and please remind yourself to look out for those more vulnerable. And stay off the phone, don't do your makeup...pull over if you need to have a fight with your spouse/kid.

I've had the following experiences:

***While walking in a crosswalk in downtown Portland, hit by a car that didn't look before turning right (I had the light). I ended up with mild concussion and lots of bruises.

***While riding my bike in downtown Portland, hit by a car that ran a red light (turns out it was stolen, driver never found). My bike was totalled, I had broken foot, dislocated shoulder and a neat souvenier in the form of my helmet which cracked open like an egg (and saved my life).

***While driving in Portland, I've nearly hit cyclists twice---once my fault, once theirs (by "fault" I'm referring to who broke the law). In the case where I was at fault, I did the wave thing and mouthed "sorry" and tried to look apologetic---the cyclist kicked my car, cussed me out and went on his way (seriously, I had stopped and pulled over. If he had called the cops on me, I would've waited around, but he opted to smack, yell and leave). The time the cyclist was at fault (he cut from the bike lane into traffic cause he wanted to turn left) he gave me the finger and called me several vile names.

So, what's my point? I don't know that I have one, beyond the fact that people are not infallible, many are assholes who you can't change, but many are folks just trying to get from point A to point B in their chosen fashion and they screw up sometimes as humans are wont to do.

Bottom line...watch out for yourselves out there no matter what mode of transportation your're using, if you screw up admit it and apologize (if the other person is still an asshole, well, you tried), and (for me personally at least) assume the best of people but plan for the worst.

Oh, and TA, I appreciate you being such a conscientious rider and I hope/assume you also try to instruct your fellow riders to do the same. Wish you had had a chance to meet/talk to the cyclist I saw last night as we left the Exec Meeting...in a bike lane, yes, but wearing all black, no reflectors, lights, or anything else. If I hadn't noticed movement out of the corner of my eye, I'd have been writing about 3 near (I hope near) misses today! Be safe out there!

Sounds like it's time for a legal revolution of sorts, with the citizenry setting up a shadow court, for bike/car/ped isssues that don't make it to the JP or circuit court. Yes, it would be a kangaroo court, if want to put a fine point on it, but read the posts. Both sides, of the issue.

This post is like a melody. There's a constant back-beat of people trying to rationally discuss the issue with a african style call-and-response vocal recounting personal experiences. It sounds like a need for accusation, confession and forgiveness. These things don't make it to the courts, there is no other outlet, so you hear a recitation of anecdote whenever anyone asks for a discussion. The quick rudeness demonstrated by both could be an artifact of trying to force all this into a 30 second exchange.

I don't even want to speculate about punishment and compensation in such a scheme. And I don't mean it to sound like Brit style ASBOs.

I wrote this on my blog on 11/5/05...

Open Letter to Crazy Female Bicyclist

Dear Crazy Female Bicyclist,

2 mornings ago you came dangerously close to hitting me with your bike as you careened down Willamette Boulevard, near the corner of Greeley Avenue. You actually stopped me in my tracks as you began yelling "Get out of the f###ing street". Your male partner also came close to hitting my wife, which would be a big mistake.

There are a few points you need to be aware of. I'm writing them here, as the two times this has happened you continued on your way.

1.) The sidewalks in this part of town are unsafe to walk on in the dark. I'm not about to risk a broken ankle so that you can win some kind of time trial on your bike.

2.) Feel free to contact the Mayor to request that the money he wants to spend on bike paths be used instead to fix the sidewalks.

3.) It is not breaking any law to walk in the street in Portland, but it is against the law to threaten someone by purposely aiming your bike at them.

4.) If you do this again, I will take your action as an act of aggression, and will in fact, shove you and/or your male companion as you ride by.

5.) Each day, as we walk along this path, at least 7 other bicyclists ride by us. I have never had problems with any of them.

I want to make myself clear that it is you who must change your anti-social behavior, and stop trying to restrict us as we happily walk along.

Sincerely, David

Ooops... I meant 11/5/08

What a stupid, stupid post by T.A. Maybe T.A. ought to drive a car once in a while and observe bicyclists who change lanes without signaling, who create their own lanes and weave between cars, or worst of all, those bycyclists who constantly alternate between the road, curb, and sidewalks depending on what gets them from point A to point B the fastest.

And sometimes, as a driver, you just don't see a bicyclist. They are much smaller than a car and can sometimes blend in with the environment. When I slam on my breaks to avoid hitting you and give you a sheepish grin I am trying to be polite. Thank you for recognizing that the human condition prevents any of us from being perfect and that sometimes when it is raining, traffic is heavy and we are keeping an astute eye out for other cars and pedestrians that a bicycle can sneak up on us. Understand that most roads to not accomodate a bicycle/car blend and these close calls are going to happen. If these little incidents make your knees quiver than maybe you ought to keep your toys in the yard and drive a car. Its life. Deal. And I'm not going to place pillows next to the bike line either in case you get scared and skin your knee.

And while you want to place all drivers in one box who ever had a close call with a bicycle let me put all bicyclists in one box who ever attached a bike to the outside of their car. Can you people please attach your bicycles securely. My car is currently stuck in Redding, CA b/c some bicycle yahoo couldn't attach his bike properly to the roof of his car and it came off on I-5, tearing up my radiator, undercarriage, A/C, and everything else under the car. I'm stuck in some rental now and need to spend a weekend this month driving back down there to get my car. Woohoo. The owner actually said to me that he felt lucky because he had been riding bikes for a long time and this was only the SECOND(!) time this had happened. The only solace I could take from the event is that the owner of the bike said it was a $2,000 bike.

There you go T.A. There is my molotov cocktail. Consider it tossed.

Okay, this comment caught my eye and it's bothering me (fair warning: nerd alert):

rw: '"SMALL MINORITY" - REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"LARGE MAJORITY" - REDUNDANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE stop using these phrases. A minority by definition IS small. A majority, by definition, is large!!!!!!'

That's not actually true. Think about it: one minority can be much smaller than another, and one majority can me much larger than another majority. For example, you can say that 76% of people like chocolate ice cream compared to 24% who prefer vanilla. Certainly, this is a large majority when compared to a 51% who like chocolate to 49% who like vanilla. In both cases, chocolate is the majority, but one is large and one is small. The adjective (in this case, large or small) describes the majority-minority relationship itself.

rw, If you want to talk about redundant or superfluous, we can start with your exclamation points.

Man, do I feel pretty lame for even writing this out (see this), and I guess this blog isn't really about grammar or word choice in the first place. But oh, what staying up for hours editing a term paper will do to rationality.

Most who cycle walk too. It would be much easier to accept that some of the chatter from the motorists weren't gibberish if pedestrians didn't see the exact same behavior from motorists!

You want to debate this seriously, explain to me where that comes from? How many of the "offended" aren't equally offended when a pedestrian steps out, with the signal, but prevents you from making a right turn on red? Why do I almost get hit as much on foot as bike? The fact that there is absolutely no difference in perception from the non-motorists POV is why it is hard to think that your attitude is about bikes.

Ultimately, every ped or cyclist is a statement that you don't have to be in your car. That bothers you and you would rather have us off the road- actuallyl in a car- than giving you an uneasy feeling. And everyone that wants all anger controlled without considering the provocation is a stupid domesticating lackey! Shove your anger management!

I'm not keen to pour fuel on the fire, but I want to share an experience that just happened to me, as a motorist, on Sunday in Portland's Chinatown--at Everett and 3rd, to be precise. While waiting for a red light, I heard a scraping sound on the passenger side, looked in the mirror, and saw a cyclist leaning against my vehicle while seemingly squeezing through the gap between my car and parked cars. When he too reached the stop line, I rolled down my window and said "excuse me". Before I could get another word out, he began shouting abuse about how I had "boxed him in" and that he hope I would "enjoy the scratch". He then took off. In other words, he had intentionally scratched my car--using his handlebars, I think--because he evidently was unhappy--but not about anything I had done to endanger him. He could have, of course, waited in the traffic lane right behind me. But he made another choice.

So much of the rude behavior we see has to do about choice.

I'm not keen to pour fuel on the fire, but I want to share an experience that just happened to me, as a motorist, on Sunday in Portland's Chinatown--at Everett and 3rd, to be precise. While waiting for a red light, I heard a scraping sound on the passenger side, looked in the mirror, and saw a cyclist leaning against my vehicle while seemingly squeezing through the gap between my car and parked cars. When he too reached the stop line, I rolled down my window and said "excuse me". Before I could get another word out, he began shouting abuse about how I had "boxed him in" and that he hope I would "enjoy the scratch". He then took off. In other words, he had intentionally scratched my car--using his handlebars, I think--because he evidently was unhappy--but not about anything I had done to endanger him. He could have, of course, waited in the traffic lane right behind me. But he made another choice.

So much of the rude behavior we see has to do about choice.

Stephen: you know good and well that the offenders who consistently say "large majority" et. al. are NOT differentiating as you describe.

Give it a rest.

"He could have, of course, waited in the traffic lane right behind me." Joel Walls

That's a good thought, but in Old Town.... . That might be a little much to expect from a lot of people hanging out in that area.

Moses, TA clearly just had a traumatic experience, and he's venting. I agree with you to a point, but one emotional outburst does not negate a lifetime of accomplishments deserving "credence." Cut a guy some slack.

TA, chill out. I'm a biker and a driver, and make stupid mistakes while piloting both vehicles. That doesn't mean I'm out of control, an asshole, or that I'm not a safe driver. At least, that in itself doesn't make me an asshole (there may be other grounds, quite apart from my vehicular skills).

Biking near cars is inherently risky, and will always be, both because bikers are sometimes stricken with the most deadly kind of hubris, and because drivers are piloting half-ton piles of deadly inertia.

George Washington once said: "The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it."

It's also a hallmark of degenerate empires that more exception is taken toward the language than what it describes. 100 years the Amazon and Congo were brutally raped when Parliament would have put an end to it all in a hearbeat if they hadn't disallowed the improper language that was required to express the reality on the ground. BTW, why do people quote Washington? He was no stand-out, by any measure. Oh, right, form over content. How about "Cussing is just foul. I don't like it and it ain't christian" - Baby Bush. Or does that only become profound when it's 200 years out of date?

This topic has shown two things clearly. The bikers care, a lot, and are worked up about the day to day reality. Everyone else cares more about that than what they are talking about. Just don't choose form over content with an issue like this, and then dare to complain about vacous politicos. Oh, and it's established that Hunter Thompson isn't literature.

It would be easier to gain sanity in the situation if there were a protocol to fall back on. So, propose one. How do I say, omg, I almost just killed you and I am so sorry (particularly when you're in a hurry and can't say that)?

Speaking of Z, I'm only disappointed that no one cared to answer what has to be the most direct response to the post topic (Z's from above).

TA makes another good point in the orig., about saying "sorry". Personally it really gets my goat (and I've got a lot of goat to get) when people say "sorry", yet they would do the exact same thing if they had it to do over. "Sorry" means "I would act differently". "Regret" is what they are expressing, whether genuine or not. So, please, help out with the overcrowding here. "Sorry" when you would act different, "regret" when you would do the same but want to apologize for the hassle.

This is all why you'll never catch me on a bike!

all of these comments and I am struck by the sanctimoniousness of the bike riders. the world has all sorts of vehicles - and bikes are only one. I am terrified by every bike I see. I see them zip around and in and out and I am watching- watching -watching and they still surprise me. too many people on bikes are unconscious of the cars. cars are bigger than you are. you blend in, pop up in places that are unexpected, and bikers don't seem to get that. like pedestrians and cars, you gotta be aware. the bike lanes are hard to see as a car driver and often end abruptly and in some places are in the car lanes and others close to the parked cars. Maybe if you would stop pitching a fit about people and start trying to find a solutions that works, there would be fewer incidents like you describe. your premise that people are ass holes assumes that the you as a bike rider were visible and acted appropriately. maybe that is a wrong assumption - maybe you were not so visible and maybe there is more going on the rest of the road than just where you are. if I get someone passing me on one side, you in a bike lane, and someone crossing the street, that is 3 things to watch for --- be more aware of the big picture and less aware of only your part and we both might be better off.

It would be easier to gain sanity in the situation if there were a protocol to fall back on. So, propose one. How do I say, omg, I almost just killed you and I am so sorry (particularly when you're in a hurry and can't say that)?

In five days of debate no one answered that, Ann. I'm definitely a sanctimonious bike rider, so that doesn't preclude wanting the same thing you do.

Humans ape their superiors to a ridiculous extent. All anyone sees is Hollywood were everyone is given an ultimatimum to deal with any situation, or acts unreasonably, or we see the Administration sending messages and refusing to talk to whomever... Most people just aren't big enough to want to try to be better. Only takes a second to see another reason that it just doesn't make sense to try. Sancimonious? Yes. You have to be a saint to always do the right thing in this environment.

Posted by: Ann | Dec 9, 2008 4:02:46 PM

all of these comments and I am struck by the sanctimoniousness of the bike riders. the

and odd that this was posted only minutes before TA was very nearly killed .

I always assertively commandeered eye contact with ALL vehicles near me. I was a lissome, muscular, powerful rider, so that typically garnered some attention. I had very good bike handling skills and rode wiht certainty. And key was my use of eye and hand gesture contact to ensure that I had done ALL possible to continue in my powerful, focused ride whilst also announcing my presence and connectintg mine with the car's.

I got my chops riding in SF. I've never been car doored! I learned the precise space at which you had to ride to avoid that. But, of course, one did not have big fucking arse Hummers etc during those years... so it has become mor4e complicated to ride defensively, visibly, sanely and with assertiveness.

I month too late, I good defense of Gonzo journalism , its answer to the critics of this post's style, and why I thought it was relevant to the post.

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