On topic - Prop. 8 will go down in history as another one of California's worst. Their "pioneering" property tax limit measure being another that continues to this day to create a massive shortfall in State revenue.

Off topic - As a "rural" guy, I get woodpiles, and what they represent about the piler. But, Paulie, I think you went too far with that one.

Speaking of the woodpile, has Jeff Merkley taken a position on removing Joe Lieberman from his committee chairmanship. A vote will be taken next week. Today Sen. Patrick Leahy took a strong position to remove Joe. I'm hoping that Jeff Merkley will do likewise.

Steve is right, Merkley gets to vote on Leiberman, this is an organizing meeting for the 111th Congress.

I can't help but notice that the topic of Paulie's post (disparity for GLBT people, etc.) has been mostly preempted by another topic that seems more interesting to many. Hmmmmm... Kind of circular... Clever segue, though.

Yeah, LGBT civil rights (oops, not even supposed to call them that, it obviously pisses off the Blacks, given their voting record) are boring. Who gives a damn anyhow if you have no personal stake in it all?

Equality? That's so gay...

So... Because YOU folks got your way with a socialist president

Now THE REST OF US are wrong because the majority spoke out against gay marriage

Suddenly ANYONE WHO DISAGREES with YOUr views are wrong???

Im not against LGBT having the right to marry or anything else they want to remove the "violet ceiling" but the as a Mcain supporter i have moved on and accepted that our country wants to move a different direction and i have gotten over it and will work for change instead of complaining

Yes, Karol: perhaps you will be listened to on this issue. This group is not immune to the ills and attributions of gravitas they critique. We are human.

Those who argue and discuss without understanding the truth are lost amid all the forms of relative knowledge, running about here and there and trying to justify their view of the substance of ego.

If you realize the self in your inmost consciousness, it will appear in its purity.

This is the womb of wonder, which is not the realm of those who live only by reason.

Pure in its own nature and free from the categories of finite and infinite, Universal Mind is the undefiled wonder.

~Lankavatara Sutra (circa 460 BCE, primary sutra of

Mahayana Chinese Buddhism

None of this will happen if we continue to compare race struggles with GLBT struggles as if they are the same argument. They aren't.

Great column by Leonard Pitts in today's Oregonian about the hypocrisy of so many religious Black voters who still feel that gay and lesbian Americans aren't as real, human or deserving of basic civil protections as they are...

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/columnists/leonard-pitts/story/767511.html

Worth printing it here in full:

Posted on Wed, Nov. 12, 2008 Some blacks forgot sting of discrimination

LEONARD PITTS JR.

Sometimes, progress carries an asterisk.

That's as good a summary as any of a sad irony from last week's historic election. You will recall one of the major storylines of that day was the fact that, in helping make Barack Obama the nation's first black president, African Americans struck a blow against a history that has taught us all too well how it feels to be demeaned and denied. Unfortunately, while they were striking that blow, some black folks chose to demean and deny someone else.

Last week, you see, California voters passed an initiative denying recognition to same-sex marriages. This overturned an earlier ruling from the state Supreme Court legalizing those unions. The vote was hardly a surprise; surely there is nothing in politics easier than to rouse a majority of voters against the ''threat'' of gay people being treated like people.

But African Americans were crucial to the passage of the bill, supporting it by a margin of better than two to one. To anyone familiar with the deep strain of social conservatism that runs through the black electorate, this is not surprising either. It is, however, starkly disappointing. Moreover, it leaves me wondering for the umpteenth time how people who have known so much of oppression can turn around and oppress.

Yes, I know. I can hear some black folk yelling at me from here, wanting me to know it's not the same, what gays have gone through and what black people did, wanting me to know they acted from sound principles and strong values. It is justification and rationalization, and I've heard it all before. I wish they would explain to me how they can, with a straight face, use arguments against gay people that were first tested and perfected against us.

When, for instance, they use an obscure passage from the Bible to claim God has ordained the mistreatment of gays, don't they hear an echo of white people using that Bible to claim God ordained the mistreatment of blacks?

When they rail against homosexuality as ''unnatural,'' don't they remember when that word was used to describe abolition, interracial marriage and school integration?

When they say they'd have no trouble with gay people if they would just stop ''flaunting'' their sexuality, doesn't it bring to mind all those good ol' boys who said they had no problem with ''Nigras'' so long as they stayed in their place?

No, the black experience and the gay experience are not equivalent. Gay people were not the victims of mass kidnap or mass enslavement.

No war was required to strike the shackles from their limbs.

But that's not the same as saying blacks and gays have nothing in common. On the contrary, gay people, like black people, know what it's like to be left out, lied about, scapegoated, discriminated against, held up, beat down, denied a job, a loan or a life. And, too, they know how it feels to sit there and watch other people vote upon your very humanity, just as if those other people had a right. So beg pardon, but black people should know better. I feel the same when Jews are racist, or gays anti-Semitic. Those who bear scars from intolerance should be the last to practice it.

Sadly, we are sometimes the first. That tells you something about how seductive a thing intolerance is, how difficult it can be to resist the serpent whisper that says it's OK to ridicule and marginalize those people over there because they look funny, or talk funny, worship funny or love funny. So in the end, we struggle with the same imperative as from ages ago: to overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry and injustice. But if last week's vote taught us nothing else, it taught us that persistence plus faith equals change.

And we shall overcome.

None of this will happen if we continue to compare race struggles with GLBT struggles as if they are the same argument. They aren't. I think acknowledgment of that will go a long way in communities of color.

Karol - I'm confused here. Does this mean that if we say "oh, the suffering of Blacks was much, much worse than the suffering of gays and lesbians," then Black Americans will vote to let us have equal rights?

Otherwise - it's oppression and second class citizenship for us?

I like Leonard Pitt's assessment of this "difference in argument" issue:

"Yes, I know. I can hear some black folk yelling at me from here, wanting me to know it's not the same, what gays have gone through and what black people did, wanting me to know they acted from sound principles and strong values. It is justification and rationalization, and I've heard it all before. I wish they would explain to me how they can, with a straight face, use arguments against gay people that were first tested and perfected against us."

Do you agree?

Oregon Bill

So because i can tell who is LGBT by the green tatoo on their forhead its easy for me to know who i should be discriminating against.

Black were discriminated against purely on the color of their skin, no one can tell who is LGBT without it being flaunted. (most of the time)

Quit the crying and start working toward what you want but don't try to compare your struggle to civil rights, that turns many people that are on the fence about your cause away.

Quit the crying and start working toward what you want but don't try to compare your struggle to civil rights, that turns many people that are on the fence about your cause away.

My husband and I are married with two kids. Marriage is a basic civil right.

Only... because of the mean-spirited efforts of Catholics, Mormons and too many Black Christians who know exactly what it means to be denied equal civil protections, our marriage is now recognized in Canada, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Denmark, South Africa - but not in California, or in our Oregon home.

You don't think two happy dads with two elementary school age boys aren't identifiable as a gay family?

And crying? I ain't crying - I'm fighting. For my civil rights.

What else is this about?

Quit the crying and start working toward what you want but don't try to compare your struggle to civil rights

You're right. Black people have been second-class citizens or far worse through most of American history until the past 40 years or so.

On the other hand, LGBT people have been jailed, beaten, subjected to electro-convulsive shock therapy "cures", and denied any form of public social existence whatsoever until the past 40 years or so.

So yes, you cannot compare the Black struggle for civil rights with the LGBT struggle. In many respects, LGBT people have had it far worse. To this day, LGBT civic society and social structure is riddled with substance abuse and other dependencies because the majority of our permitted public social space is in bars, because in most of America we're still not (publicly) welcome anywhere else, and risk being beaten or worse if we dare hold one another's hand in public.

Black people have been subjected to a lot. But it's been a few hundred years since Blacks have risked being publicly attacked simply for holding hands with someone you love in a public area.

Have some perspective folks. Neither Will and Grace nor America's relatively gay-friendly urban areas represent the reality of most LGBT people. Severe, serious beatings and killings of LGBT people still happen regularly across the United States. In Iran and Egypt, government denies we exist, then hangs us when we prove them wrong.

So yeah. You cannot fairly compared the Black and LGBT experiences of living in America.

Sad that Blacks have so little sympathy for others. Imagine if everyone felt the same.

But it's been a few hundred years since Blacks have risked being publicly attacked simply for holding hands with someone you love in a public area.

I'll correct myself and qualify that as "... with someone you love of the same race ... " in a public area, which is obviously still a problem if you can only hold hands with particular people and not anyone you happen to love. My bad, and I'm very aware of the horrible history of miscegenation laws, which denied so many people in love the right to marry.

I'd like to think Black people would have more sympathy with LGBT people over this.

To BZ

Dude, move on, your cause just doesnt pencil out that your kind has had it worse the the blacks

Move on

Please, let's talk about how much worse it is for me than every other oppressed minority!

Let's bring it back to equality - and guaranteed civil rights for all.

I think it's telling that religious voters have to amend state constitutions in order to selectively deny civil rights to my family - because otherwise, our state constitutions would still reflect the basic American principle of equal protection - for all.

The only way religious voters can enforce their prejudice is to violate founding documents by directly writing such prejudice into state constitutions. This doesn't reflect an American ideal - it's a Catholic, Baptist, Mormon ideal. It's pretty anti-American to deny anyone their basic civil rights.

And both blacks and gays/lesbians have been subject to similar, Biblically-inspired efforts at dehumanization, and selective denial of basic civil rights. Barack Obama's own parents couldn't marry in many states, because of religious laws/amendments exactly like Proposition 8 and Measure 36...

It's time to stop supporting Catholic, Mormon, Baptist churches. They are the problem. Prejudice is worse now in black and hispanic communities, because they remain the most religious (and least educated - it goes hand in hand).

It blinds them to the utter hypocrisy (and sad irony) of their votes for Prop 8...

To marginalize Blacks, Catholics, Mormons or whomever for a vote seems oppresive as well.

Karol -

What if your church had just sent hundreds of thousands of dollars to back successful efforts selectively denying women the right to assemble? Or blacks to marry whites?

If I belonged to a church that had just mobilized its members and used my donations to successfully deny black Americans the right to, say, vote - I'd leave it. In an instant.

The real problem is that on a fundamental level (I'd argue it's on a fundamentalist level) many don't see me as they do a black person, or a woman; that is, they don't see a full human being. My family fails to evoke the same level of empathy they'd show to others now warmly ensconced in America's civil rights embrace.

But my family is real. I'm human. And when a church has worked hard and successfully, and used my donations to diminish, in the most un-American fashion, my legal worth, it is very much time to condemn that church. And leave it, too.

It must be nice, all warm and comfortable. Don't rock the boat, eh? Maybe I should just be happy with the limited rights offered by the Albina Community Alliance & friends...

Will we ever learn?

I'm Black, I'm Catholic and I'm a loyal straight ally for the GLBT community. I know I can be all those things without denying my place in either.

Hi Karol -

But there's the rub...

Your church was the lead financial sponsor of Measure 36, which left my family legally unequal relative to yours. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops donated $200,000 to pass Proposition 8 in California, again selectively erasing civil rights for GLBT Americans...

So by continuing to support your Catholic church, and donating money to that Catholic church, you are directly contributing to successful efforts to disenfranchise my family from the basic civil protections that you enjoy.

You may consider yourself a "loyal straight ally," but you church affiliation has proven otherwise. And, by the way, I would never, ever do something like this to you.

Bill, enough with the personal dramatics.

It is personal. It involves my husband, and our kids. I ain't cracked a nail. Archbishop Vlazny took your donations and hired lobbyists, and ran a political campaign to demonize my family, and he was thoroughly successful in amending Oregon's constitution to, selectively, deny civil protections that you continue to (blithely, it seems) enjoy...

I think this has a lot to do with the whole dehumanization effort. Losing your civil rights is no big deal - when it happens to someone gay or lesbian. Enough with the personal dramatics.

I'm thrilled that you try to balance your support for Catholic anti-gay efforts with support for the Q Center. But ending your support for the anti-gay efforts would do more good.

So again, its not about destroying the group for the actions of a few.

You could act here, Karol - for example, you could refuse to give money to your "welcoming" church until it actually welcomes, and doesn't funnel your contributions to so many successful efforts to reduce my family's civil rights.

You know someone once posted something like "why are you posting this message here - we all support you." Yeah, right.

I have a major issue with taking ratio level data and treating it on a purely nominative level. By definition, a lot of information is lost. Everyone is talking about how America has finally accepted blacks but reject gays, like this majority by one vote mentality erases all dissenting votes.

Doesn't it come down to 2 in 10 Americans has changed their bias towards persons of color in office, over the last 15 years, but only 1 in 10 have changed their attitudes towards gays? What about the 2 in 10 that still hate both? The talk is like saying that since 6 out of 10 are pro-gay, that means there are no biased persons in the sample. That may be the political reality, but it isn't the reality on the ground.

Besides, voting on a proposition isn't like voting a political ticket. Unless it's Oregon, propositions usually stand alone without the push from the negatives that an opposing ticket gives. I also think that given the psyche of the street it's nearly impossible to redress historic wrongs during a period of uncertainty or trial. The kind of venom you are hearing would likely be apportioned as freely to any defined group saying, "we've suffered, we want something from the legislative process". Which, actually, is what I was talking about originally, not looking at the degree but make a blanket qualitative generalization, since the other end of the horse is that some grievances are so long standing they have to be dealt with now, regardless.

To BZ:

Anyone describing the LGBT community as "your kind" has convincingly illustrated their bias, and eliminated any credibility in this discussion.

To Steven Maurer:

If you had any relevant personal experience by while to evaluate being discriminated against based on an immutable factor such as race or sexual orientation, I might take you seriously Steven. As is, I don't. If I'm not mistaken, you're a member of the historically and still dominant American social category: straight white men.

Karol -

By the way, here's the reference to testimony by the Oregon Catholic Conference ("representing the Archdiocese of Portland and the Diocese of Baker", http://www.archdpdx.org/occ/...

...actually OPPOSING DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS (SB 1000) in 2005:

http://www.sos.state.or.us/archives/legislative/legislativeminutes/2005/senate/rules/srules0504.htm

Robert Castagna (Executive Director, Oregon Catholic Conference) Oregon Catholic Conference. Testifies in opposition to SB 1000. Submits written testimony (EXHIBIT LLL). Refers to letter on marriage, civil unions and reciprocal beneficiaries (EXHIBIT MMM). Expresses support for HB 3476. Points out the Archdiocese abstained from the Board vote of Ecumenical Ministries. Submits issue of Catholic Sentinal newspaper (EXHIBIT NNN).

And, by the way, 2005's HB 3476, the "reciprocal benefits" proposal referenced above, backed by your Catholic Archdiocese, was described by Jeff Alworth in the following Blue Oregon post:

"I thought the Measure 36 arguments were disingenuous at best--the notion that straight marriage was somehow sullied by gay marriage was juvenile and bigoted. But proponents could keep a straight face when they said it wasn't about the rights of gays and lesbians. House Bill 3476 affords no such justification. It's pure statutory bigotry and it's worse than nothing. I have this feeling we're about to hear "reciprocal benefits" enter the debate as the right's newest framing device. From where I sit, they're neither reciprocal nor benefits. I hope people of good conscience aren't deceived."

http://www.blueoregon.com/2005/06/civil_unions_or.html

since I go to a congregation that preaches acceptance of all.

So your church doesn't even back substandard, "separate and not equal," non-portable domestic partnerships! And it uses your money to fight against my family's basic civil rights...

Not my definition of "a straight ally." No more moaning over our lesser legal status until you address your own participation and responsibility - and DO something.

Karol says: There is no winning by persecuting groups to serve other groups' agendas.

Karol, I don't mean to get too deeply into this personal debate/quarrel, but I think you are missing something here.

Although I will agree that it's wrong to attribute anti-gay actions to every member of an ethnic population, or to every member of an entire religious faith, it is, however, appropriate to note that a majority portion of certain groups did and do, through their vote or through their silence, suppress the advancement of equal rights for all.

Calling that out is not "persecuting" these groups in any way; it's simply speaking the truth. (Of course accusing any individual member of a group of bigotry, based solely on membership in that group, is prejudice and wrong.)

Beyond that, those of us who are calling out those who are working to suppress the advancement of equal rights for all are not working to serve our own groups' individual agendas. We are working to advance a core tenet of a very broad progressive agenda that includes us all.

(Of course accusing any individual member of a group of bigotry, based solely on membership in that group, is prejudice and wrong.)

I'm saying "follow the money."

Karol's donations to her "welcoming" church end up in successful political efforts to reduce my family's basic civil rights. There's no denying that connection. It's what's happened - and continues to happen.

And she can pretend that it doesn't matter ("enough with the personal dramatics"), but it does. Because I'm flesh and blood, and my family matters as much as hers. Her support for a church that undermines my family's rights dirties her hands.

I, for one, have had enough. And KAROL can do something about this.

In fact, I recently emailed family and friends about this very issue, and so far: 1) three people have told me that their families were permanently leaving their Catholic churches 2) five responded to say they'd interrogated their ministers about marriage equality 3) one said my message convinced her to keep her kids out of a nearby Catholic school

I think individual personal decisions based on knowledge (and acknowledgment) of real people is what ultimately brings change.

Well Bill, I'm rather certain my church doesn't "give money to hate"

<h2>Karol - I actually never used those words you quote</h2>