It's similarly punitive to take seniority entirely out of the mix at layoff time.

Welcome to the real world......

As a rule of thumb, any measure written or connected to Sizemore, Mannix, Parks, or McIntyre gets a NO vote no matter what the issue is. Measure 60 is a great example of why you need to do this NO vote. Sizemore has to realize that he just can not make personal vendettas part of the political structure. He needs to chill out.

No on everything..at least everything Sizemore gives us to vote on..and it's GARBAGE.

"why does he dislike teachers in Oregon so much???"

I believe it is because a single teacher (or just a normal person) or two pissed him off so badly that he is using the initiatives to 'get back' at those one or two single people with an 'I'll show them' attitude. Telling us it's about the money is not really the truth. It's about being petty and lashing out like any good, spoiled 6-year-old would do.

It's not about teachers as a whole. It's about getting even with someone who has pissed him off. I wonder who that person is and what that person has done to make Bill so energetically petty.

Hi Folks,

Since moving to Nevada, home to your nemesis, Loren Parks, I've continued to follow BO but have not commented [except in my head]. mp's comment requires a response. For the record I am an Auto Technology instructor in the Clark County School District, 5th largest in the nation. I'm 62 and only started teaching last year. Prior to that I have worked in the automotive trades for some 30 years and have also working in logging, bar bouncing, and public policy......you know, the high risk occupations. I've owned my own repair shop and have hired and fired and laid-off more people than I care to acknowledge. With a very few exceptions the folks I had to let go were the newest hires. Even though our various company policies might not have stated that seniority existed, it did and does as a matter of fact. Less senior employees have less invested in any organization, have less institutional memory and are more mobile and adaptable. HR managers routinely factor those elements into personnel decisions. Sure, younger employees are often more dynamic and adaptable....the very reasons why they are often more expendable.

Over the years in the private sector I've certainly complained about the tax burden on business and individuals and I've used the tax code to my advantage. The reality of public education, though, is that it is severely underfunded vis-a-vis our stated public policy in terms of what we expect. I teach in the NE District of Las Vegas, considered to have the largest "at-risk" population of the LV metro area. I have six automotive classes, one freshman study skills and one freshman advisory/mentorship. The smallest class is 38 and the largest is 43. My academic colleagues fare little better as we are overcrowded by some 200 students [2600+ instead of 2400] but have not received additional help. In trying to keep our AP and Honors classes to 25 students so that they can pass the ubiquitous tests the rest of us take on a large share of the load.

Bill S. and mp, under your plan how would you calculate my pay? How would you determine if I should be retained or let go? Who in their right mind [luckily I do not claim mental clarity or acuity] would take on a shop class full of sharp and dangerous tools with 3 deaf kids, one autistic kid and a mix ranging from the Merit Scholar candidate to the kid wearing an ankle bracelet for stabbing his brother....oh, and let us not forget the kids with IEP's whose functional grade level is somewhere between 1st and 5th grade.

I didn't know much about teaching when I took this on and I probably had some of the same biases towards the public sector and teaching. That said, I hope that I never have approached the level of stupidity and inanity [is that a word] demonstrated by Parks, Sizemore and mp. I know mp is a troll and he popped up at just the right time to set me off on a rant. But he and his ilk are chiggers under the skin of the body politic, ....nasty little nay-sayers whose mommas deprived them of a proper upbringing, impolite, disrespectful and impolitic. Some of my bad students have more brains.

best regards

wharf rat

"why does he dislike teachers in Oregon so much???"

I don't think it's necessarily that he dislikes teachers, but rather he dislikes unions. He gets all of these measures on the ballot and makes unions spend millions of dollars fighting them instead of putting their money to good use elsewhere. He's diverting funds, making unions struggle to keep up financially.

What Bill Sizemore needs to get, is a real job.

I mean, really, how long has he been at this nonsense? Is he CAPABLE of holding a real job?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I have worked in the schools for many years and have seen many things come and go. It a sure thing that anything connected to Sizemore is bad news. Merit pay sounds good but it wouldn't work. There are just too many factors that play into the whole process. In the average class there are children with special needs, emotional upheavels going on at home, children who do not speak English, children who have limited participation from parents and on and on. This of course varies greatly depending on the area and amount of involvement from the community. Also, there can be a lot of favoritism from administrators. Tests used to compare performance depend on many factors and only reflect what a child does on any given day. The teachers that I work with are very dedicated, hard working, and care greatly for their students. They spend a lot of their own money to provide materials. There are less and less people going into education programs. The requirements are steep and the costs are too great. Passing this measure would only push more people out of education. We should be rewarding teachers more and acknowledging their efforts rather than doing something that amounts to nothing but a punishment.

I haven't quite figured out which topic elicits more vitriol among the chattering class, teachers or religion?

By typing 5 little words, I have been called names and had my mother insulted, by a teacher no less. Sad, but not surprising........

It is funny observing the air of superiority that permeates "blue" blogs. You think you are so much better than the hate mongers over at "red" blogs. I got news for ya, you are no different, you just hate different people.......

Loved your comment, Posted by: CenterCityLass | Oct 1, 2008 7:10:03 PM

Brienne, let's go back to the days when there were no teachers unions, teachers were not entitled to have duty free lunch half-hour breaks, and they were entirely dependent on the local school board for any pay and benefits. How many people would go into teaching when there are wage and hour rules (incl. lunch break) in other occupations?

There was a proposal a few sessions back when Republicans were still in control to deprive teachers of discussing prep periods in contract negotiations. (As I substitute teacher, I always said anyone who supported that deserved to be in a school all day with no prep period and explain why that was a good thing.) There was one state legislator who proposed not having contract negotiations, rather having each employee negotiate individually. Is a small school district prepared to do that? How about large districts like Bend, Eugene, Salem, Portland?

And if unions ceased to exist, what would Sizemore do for a living? Might he have to go out in the real world and get a real job?

I have to agree. Oregon schools just keep getting better. Graduation rate at an all time high." In fourth grade, American kids do above average internationally. By eighth grade, they slip a bit, and by 12th-grade, they’ve slipped a lot,” Marsh said. “We’re the only country that slides down that much from fourth to 12th grade.” http://kapio.kcc.hawaii.edu/upload/fullnews.php?id=52 Yes, keep the schools just the way they are!

I don't think he dislikes teachers any more than he dislikes the State of Oregon. He is not only working diligently on the race to the bottom as far as teacher's salaries are concerned; he also can't wait to drive this state to bankruptcy. I can't even speculate what his motivation might be other than that he is some sort of anti-social deviant with nothing better to do.

To mp97303,

Welcome to the real world?!?! PUHLEASE! How many professions are constantly subjected to having their salary impacted by statewide ballot measures?!?! I love Oregon and don't want to leave the state, however, I'm getting sick and tired of Bill Sizemore's idiotic ballot measures. I'm sick of fearing for my salary or severe budget cuts in every state election.

This initiative will end up costing the state more money and subject students to even more standardized tests. If you want Oregon's children to become expert standardized test takers then this is the ballot measure for you. Unfortunately those skills don't often lead to critical thinkers working in the REAL WORLD for the private sector.

Since most of you who have commented have completely ignored the statement that I made, I will make things easier for you. Here is a scenario for you:

School has 100 teachers. Budget cut. Only have funding for 90 positions. Who would you choose to fill those 90 positions? Those who have been there the longest or those who are the best educators?

If the administrators are doing their job correctly then the "unfit" teachers should be weeded out. Do you really believe that when a private corporation cuts jobs that the "best" workers are always retained?

Didn't think it was that hard a question.........BTW when I have had to cut payroll at the companies I have owned, I always keep the most productive, regardless of how long they have been there. When I comes time for pay raises and promotions, they always went to the best, not those who were there the longest. And guess what, my employees have always loved the fact that they are rewarded on the basis of their MERIT as opposed to when they were HIRED.

mp97303...I did not ignore your statement. I am basing my vote soley on who wrote it, not the issue itself. The issue is really inmaterial when it comes to Bill, the issue is his ignorance, not the initiative itself. It doesn't matter what he puts on the ballot, if he wrote it, you vote NO. Simple and to the point.

I would also like to challenge Bill to tell us who he is really pissed off at that made him lash out and create the measure as a notion of 'payback'

LT, thanks for your comment. I was not belittling unions in any way. On the contrary, I am not only part of two unions (two jobs; represented by AFT and AFSCME), but I am one of my local's union political leaders.

I went to a training this year with OurOregon reps, and from their standpoint, Sizemore doesn't care if the measures actually pass; he just wants unions to spend all their money fighting them. He's just a sleazy union buster.

<h2>Eric, my comments weren't directed at you as you had not commented on my post. As I too do not support this measure, I would posit the idea that Sizemore is doing this because it makes him feel like he has some power due to the fact he should more aptly be name SIZELESS. wink wink</h2>