Ah, lard. Rendered pork fat. Mmmmmm. That is too much, even for this polish midwesterner.

I actually have a bunch of fat back at home and was thinking about rendering some lard from scratch. I bought some for fattening up too-lean sausage (duck, lamb, etc.), but I couldn't buy less than five pounds so I've got a bunch to spare. I've always wanted to make a pie with fresh lard...

Paul,

I'm definitely a butter guy, started doing my baking as a Reed student in a large vegetarian communal house -- "The Dustbin of History"-- & for pie crusts it came out of the original Moosewood Cookbook (though I do rely on the Joy, or the Goy as some old friends used to say, for other things).

Anyway, with butter there are two keys: coldness and gentleness. You have to cut the butter into the flour very cold, cut it enough but not too much, make the dough into balls and then sit them in the refigerator to get cold again before rolling it out. Rolling needs wax paper unless you're quick about it & in practice.

The flakiness actually comes from the incompleteness of the flour-butter mix because the butter's stiff, I think.

For me the butter-based flavor beats anything else, so I've nailed my flag to sat-fat over trans for the sake of the flavor. In this I follow in the tradition of Reed alum James Beard (though that's a complicated story involving love, the sexual mores of the 1920s, and institutional philistinism in the 1980s).

It ain't health food either way, in quantities, but in moderation ...

100% butter. The flavor is the best, and Crisco and other manufactured shortenings are a sin against cooking.

About Toughness/Flakiness:

Toughness in pie crusts is caused by allowing your fat to melt and chemically bind with the flour. Crisco and other transfat based products have a higher melting point, which is one way to keep things flaky.

However, the better way is to just keep things cold. You preheat the oven so that when you put the pie in, the crust quickly goes from cold to steaming hot (the steam in the butter is what actually produces the "flakes"). But before that, just make sure you're dealing with extremely cold ingredients.

Personally, I use ice water, butter chilled in the freezer for 15 minutes, and flour stored in the refrigerator. Adding a drop of vinegar (acid) to your ice water is also a trick to retard butter-flour binding, but I've never found it necessary. Just make sure to leave the flour lumpy when you're blending it (butter lumps make flakes), and put the pie in the oven immediately after making the crust, and you'll do fine.

Oh, and when cooking apple pies, don't: 1) Over chop the apples (pieces should be 1/2 to 3/4ths of an inch), 2) oversugar or starch the pie (or else you'll get McDonalds like goo), or use bland "Red or Golden Delicious" apples. Back yard (non-overwatered) apples are the best, followed by Organic varietals, or non-organic varetials. But even if you're stuck shopping at Safeway, you can always pick up Granny Smiths. Apples for pies should be tart to offset the sugar you're adding.

Thanks Steve, that's illuminating! A bit like Tom, the house I grew up in (Massachusetts though) was in the remains of a 19th - early 20th century orchard and my mother made pies from this one tree that had way tart apples that I've never found again -- the tree went down in a blizzard decades ago. They still form my pie ideal.

rw, Paul planted the seeds of an episode of a permanent standing debate far wider than BO, Steve M. nurtured them, Tom just picked up from there. ;->

Butter. I only use that organic Earth Balance vegan shortening when my vegan brother is coming to dinner, and it requires a lot more effort to keep it cold during the process. I wrote up complete pie instructions (crusts, apple, blueberry and pumpkin) for my kids (who still seem to call me for advice whenever they are baking) a few years ago which I'd be happy to share with anyone. (Too long for a post.)

My lovely and talented spouse, Sally, is the finest baker of pies I have ever encountered. This may sound like the usual bias, but many who have doubted me on this point have been won over when confronted with her nirvana-bestowing apple pie. Although I was raised by a family of lard-users, she discounts its use (too heavy, I believe), though she does allow it as a respectable variant. But as to the butter v. Crisco battle, it's a no-brainer: butter by a country mile.

Chris, as usual, has the correct answer (expanded on by Steve M). It's not the fat so much as how you treat the fat. Try a well-made butter pie and you'll never go back.

Oh, and one other thing: it's always pie season.

No question: Butter straight from the freezer, kneaded just enough to get the dough to consistancy but not enough to really melt the butter. Proud to say I won the prize for the best crust for my apple pie entry in the last, and only, apple pie contest I entered.

My fave is peach pie, but it depends on the peaches. They have to be sweet and ripe. But fruit pies of any kind are great. And pecan pies. And pumpkin pies. And...

This thread is driving me to distraction. Where can you get a slice downtown?

I actually lied. Just like John McCain.

I used Crisco / butter combo yesterday. I am heading out RIGHT NOW to get some Spitz's ("Jefferson's favorite apple") and Mutsu's. And Ambrosia.

Tom, I know about the red delicious. There are trees (whisper--38th street just south of Steele) with tons of red delicious. I use them to fill out the pie and add some softness.

Hi Paul G.

I vote for real Tillamook butter. Nothing says pie like butter. It's true, Crisco can make a damn fine crust, but butter is the way to go. That said, I have a tub of Crisco in my cupboard.

PS: If you cook down the apples for about 5 minutes in the microwave with cinnamon, sugar, pinch of salt and cornstarch, your pie will be even better. Don't overcook; just long enough that the apples and the other stuff make a nice, thick syrupy juice that makes you want to lick the bowl after you've poured the contents in the crust. Trust me, I make apple pie like you debate the open primary - baking to win.

Dear Portland Pie Commission;

I respectfully request that you please expand the scope of your purview to include the rest of Oregon. Portland does not have the corner on awesome pies. I would dare say that outside of Porland, we have better pies because we are closer to where the actual fruit grows. I challenge you to a *pie baking contest at some point after the election where we can celebrate Oregon pies and the great blue wave of 2008. These are issues that rural, urban and suburban Oregonians can appreciate.

• I do not believe we should exclude any particular fruit, I believe all fruit is good and worthy of putting in a pie except perhaps the durian fruit because it is nasty.

Ah, Karol, you are fearful of the empty crust? Is this because you fear revealing the emptiness of your political philosophy? Or is it that you prefer presoftened pablum from your politicians, not the hard edged, tart wisdom of, say, a Sarah Palin? I bet Sarah doesn't pre-soften her apples!

First Tom wants to start an argument, now a rhubarb ...

(I know what I said about him before, consistency is the hobgoblin etc. etc.)

Seriously, though, I'm starting to get visions of a progressive dinner, so to speak, or dessert, after the election ...

Oh Paul, you are so, so deep.

The apples aren't so much softened as juiced. You see it does represent my political philosophy: When you warm up one group to mix with the other, each groups' best traits combine to make one perfect union. Each retains its own flavor - apples keep the crunch, cinnamon keeps the spice - but together are better than they are alone. Hence, American as apple pie.

Beat that, Teach.

Karol, a big virtual sloppy kiss and hug.

Lard is traif! Butter is divine. Lupita is a blessed woman!

Will spritzing my pie crust with water, just before baking, make them flakier