Jack,

I know it makes your position less tenable, but their is significant difference between "immigrant bashing" and concern that a company wholly owned by a US Senator is very lax in verifying worker documentation in an industry that attracts undocumented applicants.

Your denial of this is erosive your reputation as a reasonable Republican.

Jack, with all due respect, when your party and its supporters have repeatedly and consistently identified illegal immigration as an important policy issue, it is a major story if the highest ranking Republican elected official in the state employs illegal immigrants at the business that he owns.

This issue has the potential to tear the Republicans in half. Here's hoping it does.

It's so fun to watch is base implode.

The problem is that Senator Smith's response to the first Willamette Week article was stupid. I doubt it's possible to run an operation like that and not have a few undocumented workers, no matter how diligently you check their proffered SSNs. But rather than explain that, he made the ludicrous claim that there were absolutely no undocumented workers at his plant. And now all WW has to do is find five and he looks like a jackass. (It doesn't help that his plant doesn't use the verification system, although that doesn't really stop people from using other's SSNs.)

Part of the problem is that a lot of his base is so irrational about immigration issues, he really couldn't level with them.

I actually kind of feel sorry for the senator, except that's what you get when you build a party up with irrational xenophobia.

(Also, based on the way he treats his workers, according to the first WW article, I have trouble feeling much sympathy for him.)

Jack, that is so weak! The reason it is an issue is because employers -- like Gordon -- intentionally turn a blind eye to the large number of undocumented workers they rely on to produce unskilled labor at a bargain-basement wage. Gordon looked ever-so=sincerely into the camera and said the WW story was completely false and that Smith Foods takes thorough steps to ensure that they don't hire people who are here illegally. That is known to non-politicians as a lie.

Everyone who knows anything about agriculture or food processing knew Smith had to know that he was hiring undocumented workers. Now there is proof. Will Jeff Mapes, Dave Steves, and others continue to cover for Smith just because their newspapers wouldn't pay for them to get into their car, drive to Pendelton, speak a little Spanish, and get the truth?

This reporter (never heard of her before this - where did she come from?) ought to get an award for doing actual investigative reporting.

I thought progressives support the rights of undocumented immigrants to get a driver's license and earn a living?

Where's the compassion now?

irrational xenophobia

Anyone have a definition of rational xenophobia?

From just a cynical, political perspective, it's quite delightful to witness republicans snack on one another.

Beyond that though, this story does expose Smith as, at best, asleep at the wheel. And if the wing-nuts (like Larson) abandon Smith completely he may get to come back to Oregon full-time and deal with this problem personally.

Of course, what about the workers themselves? My take is that the vast, vast majority are simply people who are trying to get ahead, earn a little money, and make a better life for their children, which is exactly what one of my ancestors did in 1848 from Co. Cork.

And yet, now they're political footballs, kicked around to make this or that political point.

I don't know what the solution is to this. I do know that demonizing folks, as Larson and others do nearly everyday, is not the answer. Neither is rounding everyone up and shipping them back to where ever. Imagine that process shown nightly nightly on the evening news.

Today WW's Beth Slovic was interviewed by Lars Larson. In that interview she confirmed that she spoke with several who are currently working at Smith's company. They are examples of individuals who were knowingly hired in direct violation of the law. If that serves to demystify anyone then this is a step in that direction.

However, having listened to the issue of undocumented folks hammered I would like to focus on the upcoming election. The issue is who will be stripped from the role of registered voters. First, corporations benefit from the low wage strategy. Then they created fear that these folks would vote. The reality is election fraud not the fraud of voters. Seriously people. Voter caging is well underway. Three million or more voters who are qualified to vote are going to be turned away. Colorado, Ohio and others are sending out do not forward verification notices.

In that interview she confirmed that she spoke with several who are currently working at Smith's commpany. They are examples of individuals who were knowingly hired in direct violation of the law.

As I have suspected TorridJoe just has poor comprehension skills.

How ironic. The City of ortland has a day labor center set up by the party line City Council that finds illegal aliens jobs – no questions asked.

Happy to be of assistance to you Jack. First word article. Second word interview. In today's interview WW's Beth Slovic told Lars that she had returned to the workers at Smith's plant for follow up. They had become aware of Gordon's distortions of the truth. Those that she interviewed (see above) indicated that they were currently employed at Smith's plant and that they had been knowingly hired in direct violation of the law.

Do hope that clears it up for you.

I'm just surprised there isn't a new post showing Merkley down just a point to Smith. I figured this race was over and somewhat surprised Smith has been running so many ads, especially those that are increasingly negative. I guess I know better now. The Rasmussen poll can't be good news for Smith, though Obama only leading in the state by 4 points probably doesn't help Merkley enough. I'm surprised Obama hasn't cut an ad for Merkley.

Today WW gives Bunster some love and goes after the Lake Oswego City Council for shutting Bunster out of public meetings, so what does Bunster do? Smacks WW. No wonder he's so beloved.

Give me a break Bunster. The Feds aren't going to raid Smith Frozen Foods. Raid the business of a Republican U.S. Senator? Are you kidding me?

Get over the Novick race, Bunster. Steve has.

And Jack Roberts never answered my earlier post. I'll remind you of the premise, Jack: Smith lied on camera, as surely as Bill Clinton lied on camera about not having sex with that woman. That makes it a campaign issue.

One of the big problems with agriculture is that there are a lot of growers, and not a lot of processors. Add to that the fact that there are a limited number of buyers for the volume that the packers and processors turn out, and those of us, the consumers, who are buying from the big commercial retail system are always looking for the 'best buy'. All of these factors work against high wages for the people working as employees in the production chain all the way from the farm to the packing plant. The problem is systemic and industry wide. The only ones who can get away without hiring employees are the ones running very small farms and processing on a very small scale, then selling direct to consumers through farmgate sales, CSAs, farmers markets, etc.. While those are nice systems, and valuable to society as a whole, I doubt that they could provide food at the price of the large retailers, with the constant availability and convenience that a retail store like Fred Meyer, Haggen, Wal Mart, Safeway, or even Whole Foods can.

That having been said, Gordon Smith is still a sodding great hypocrite...and the least his plant manager or HR people could do is to use a system like E-Verify to give a show of compliance with the law.

I understand how difficult it is to find people to work in processing plants, packing plants, and on farms. My next door neighbor works for a large wholesale nursery. They got popped by INS a decade ago for having illegal aliens working on the farm. These were people who had been working for the nursery for years and at least one was a crew leader. They had Oregon driver licenses, social security cards that looked legit, and the nursery had collected the information and sent it on to the the proper agency. After years, they were audited and the employees in question were taken into custody. The nursery was fined for the violations. They were also fined for having all hispanics employed, and made to put out help wanted adds for non hispanics. My neighbor, she works in the office and has something to do with HR, said they couldn't get anyone, other than hispanics, to work on the farm for the wages they were paying - the state minimum wage for most, I think some were being paid piece work, which is legal in the agriculture industry, even if you wind up paying the employee below the minimum wage. The farm knows what it can get for the plants it's growing, that is, what the retailers and landscape contractors will pay, how many man-hours it takes to raise a certain plant to sale size, and how much they can pay an employee for work done to get the plant to market and still make a proffit.

Here it's the same problem - farms producing, essentially selling into a commodities market that is ultimately controlled by the end purchaser who refuses to pay more than he/she absolutely has to. Add to that the fact that, because a lot of hispanics who speak little English are generally hired for these types of jobs, and so anyone you hire will need to speak Spanish fluently, and what you wind up with are mostly hispanics, some of which are going to be here illegaly no matter how well you check a potential employee's legal status. Add to that as well, the fact that a portion of the people entering this country over the southern border are from rural areas and probably have more farming experience, than the average non hispanic, and if I was hiring farm labor that's the person I'd be looking for, especially if I needed people to do a lot of manual work which is probably more common in an area with low wages and lower rates of mechanization in the agricultural industries such as you might find in rural Mexico, Guatamala, etc..

Mexico isn't unique in that aspect. I worked with a fellow who had spent some time in Romania within the last 10 years. He said that in the rural areas, cutting hay with a scythe was one of the better paying jobs when he was over there.... In fact, doing ag in the old ways was pretty common for all aspects of plant and animal agriculture, all the way down to milking by hand, a practice that was going to be done away with as Romania entered the European Union. Milking by hand is looked down on by the European Commission and their ag regulators.

And we know they were KNOWINGLY hired in violation, how?

hmmm. That is a valid point, we don't that they knowingly hired undocumented workers. As in when they asked for documents and none could be provided they hired the worker anyway. Although I would say it is a safe bet to say they negligently hired undocumented workers. As far as how negligent they really were is the question. Are the hiring managers just not trained well enough and don't know how to spot false documents (even the most advanced fake SS and perm resident cards are missing key elements from the real ones) or are they just not having any new workers bother filling out an i-9?

In Arizona, I must have had 2-3 people a month come in with SS card with the number 000-00-0000.

Consumer and prosumer printers are available now that make it possible to print fake SS cards that, to the eye, look like the real thing - that quality of equipment has been around for the past 5 years or so. DMV has equipment to check validity on SS cards. Employers generally don't have that kind of equipment. I have a close friend who is a lead worker at a DMV express office. She's the one who told me that. She says that they have to check SS cards with their equipment on a regular basis as the fakes are good enough that many would be accepted as legit otherwise.

10 years ago, though, I think the situation with the printers was different. Now, however, I could see it happening.

I do graphics and am familiar enough with the higher quality ink jet printers that I could probably produce a card that would pass examination by eye, and touch.

E-Verrify can be gotten around as well. All E-Verrify does, it's my understanding, is check the association of a name with a number. If I'm supplying people working illegally with a SSN, all I have to do is supply them with a name to go with that, and the bogus documents to support the new identity. Not having a checking account is no problem either. All you have to do is sign the pay check over to someone else, they deposite it, and then give cash, against the pay check, to the employee - less a nominal fee of course. I know people who have done that, and then there are businesses that do this as well. If you take a check to the bank to cash, you'll have to provide a thumb print. If you sign the check over to someone else to deposite, no thumb print is required, and so, no ID of the person the check was originally issued to.

It's this reason that I don't like things like Real ID. Too much government intrusion and surveillance and not sufficient return as far as security.

Thanks for the chuckle, Jack. You are a funny guy. Doubt that Gordon would encourage any of his employees to bring a defamation suit because there would be discovery. And we are quite sure Gordon Smith does not want to reveal just how inadequate his records are. Stick with a faith based hiring practice as policy.

Joanne Rigutto,

I disagree with your economic analysis. Consumers should look for the best price for a quality product. If the economics of an industry lead to hiring undocumented workers in order to depress wages, then regulation is faulty, not consumers. Wages are a small part of the retail price of agricultural products. Farmers are pressured to hire undocumented workers only because their competitors depress wages by doing the same. It is the responsibility of government to remove insentives to break laws, exploit workers, damage the environment, or harm consumers.

If a product is desirable, consumers will pay what it is worth to them.

Hey! Sen. Smith IS in compliance with the Law.

Jeff Merkley could have allowed a Vote to make E-Verify the law in Oregon, he did not.

Nancy Pelosi could allow a Vote on the S.A.V.E. Act, making E-Verify the law for all Employers in the nation, she has not.

We are on the Honor system, just like Voting registrations, the Employee signs an I-9 agreeing that "they are authorised to work in the U.S.A.".

For the protection of the Employee and to make all Business owners play on a level field, let's make E-Verify the Law.

I think I can get the R's to agree as I know some R's that will vote yes on that.

Can you get the D's to vote on that? At least here in OR?

Problem solved...Next?

ps. E-Verify requires Name, Date of Birth & S.S.#, Social Security has to have issued to that person that # with that B-day & Name, Fraud is virtually non-exsistent as Cari has pointed out here.

What information is required to conduct an E-Verify initial verification?

After hiring a new employee and completing the Form I-9 required for all new hires (regardless of E-Verify participation), the employer or agent must submit a query that includes information from sections 1 and 2 of the Form I-9, including:

• Employee’s name and date of birth, • Social Security Number (SSN), • Citizenship status he or she attests to, • A number or I-94 number, if applicable, • Type of document provided on the Form I-9 to establish work authorization status, and • Proof of identity, and its expiration date, if applicable.

Response to the initial query is sent within seconds of submitting the query. Documents presented for Form I-9 identification only purposes (documents from “List B”) to E-Verify employers must have a photograph.

Gordon Smith's hypocrisy and his revolting ads are bearing fruit. His double digit lead has now evaporated and its a dead even race, now according to two polls, the most recent out today is Rasmussen, a Republican pollster. May he languish after he's defeated in one of those circles of Dante's Inferno reserved for the double-faced and the hypocrite.

You do realize this gotcha journalism is going to get many innocent people fired: the undocumented workers, the accountants, and the employees who were quoted by name for starters.

It's a tragedy to have people fired from their jobs just to advance Merkley's political campaign.

Tom Civeletti,

I agree with you. If the playing field was level, and all farms and packers/processors hired only legal workers and paid living wages then the wholesale price for agriculture commodities would be substantially the same from all producers, and it would be considerably higher than it is now.

Unfortunately, most farms and packers/processors sell into the broader commodities market. That means that a commodity changes hands several times before it gets to the consumer. Every time that commodity changes hands the price goes up. Generally, this is done by keystoning - doubling the price from one hand to the other.

Farms selling direct to consumer can afford to pay more in wages, because they will make a higher proffit per unit than those farms or processors/packers selling into the broader commodities markets.

To take the equation the other direction, we sell eggs from our farm for $3.00/dozen. That's the farmgate price. If we were selling eggs for that ammount into the commodities market you'd be paying $6.00-$12.00/dozen in the store using the standard keystone markup. On the other hand, if we were selling into the commodities market, at the rates right now, we'd probably be getting $.75-$1.50/dozen, based on a $3.00/dozen retail store price, depending on if we were selling direct to the store or going through a distributor.

I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, that's just the realities of the current market place.

Undocumented workers are willing to do some jobs that indigenous workers are unwilling to do.

According to a 2006 survey by the Pew Hispanic Center, illegals make up 24 percent of workers in agriculture, 17 percent in cleaning, 14 percent in construction, and 12 percent in food production. So 86 percent of construction workers, for instance, are either legal immigrants or Americans, despite the fact that this is one of the alleged categories of untouchable jobs. http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200603140822.asp

I'm shocked... shocked, to find that workers with false documents are working here.

Actually, I don't fault Gordon too much on this. But I have to chuckle at his defenders as they try to put out a fire the R's started (and have used widely for their own political gain.) Nothing like seeing someone hoisted by his own party's petard.

Old trope: Murricans is lazy and won't do that kinda work. Murrican kids is danged lazy and won't do that kinda work.

That latter may be partly true, as reported by my son who is exasperated with his peers.

But either I'm a defective American product and my son the same, or the former may not be a wholly defensible statement. I've been through the bleedouts Oregon offers on a regular basis, with dives that start sooner than everywhere else and last longer, after so-called recoveries have evidenced themselves elsewhere.

[Digression Alert: remember that unbelievably stupid "jobless recovery" business our state economist cutified in verse, at a salmon luncheon? I must have been the only jobless person in the room: my appetite fled behind my despairing disbelief while every last other person kept scooping fish and murmering wisely in agreement.]

Back to my point: I am a skilled professional, but when my niche crashed, and when my next niche crashed, I did any and all things it took to keep that little household of mine going. Alone.

Did so in my twenties in Nevada as well, where wages of workers in the unskilled-skilled market plummeted when immigrants of all different statuses established there. I painted houses, carried hod and cleaned condos on the side. Women rarely were allowed to work in the Trades in NV at that time, and the other work I did paid less each year as the demographics of the labor force changed. I found it incredibly offensive that the property managers baldly took advantage of those women, and me along with them. Their rationales were much the same as some I've heard here.

In our household, no work is too low or hard for either of us, even as I've done some very skilled work and do so now. At one point, my preteen child wanted to do simple yardwork and such, and was competing with full grown men with families to feed, not all of them immigrants in background. That kid wanted to work for years before he was allowed or able - competing with all kinds of people who were doing raw survival.

Either I am a defective model Lazy American and I'm raising my son the same way, or business folks and certain others may not want to look again at the picture.

Jack says, "I would be the first to agree that many Republicans have taken an irresponsible position on this issue and no one regrets that more than I do. But some people--including President Bush, John McCain and Gordon Smith--have not."

At the risk of swimming too far up through the comments, that's exactly my point. There's an easy way out of this mess for Senator Smith, simply reiterate his measured, humane and pragmatic stance in favor of reforming immigration law.

Of course, he won't do that because his campaign is scared of losing their know nothing base. He deserves to lose for pandering instead of leading on this issue.

And, for all of you whingers out there complaining about WW, take another gander at the rape ad that Smith has up and ask yourself, "Wait a second, inventing then paying huge money to produce and air an argument that is blatantly false and is specifically designed to roil voters deepest emotions versus an independent media outlet reporting a story we all know is true. Hmmm...WTF am I thinking?"

The solution to the problem of illegals is to make them legal. I'm not talking amnesty, here. But as the 2nd generation of Ellis Island immigrants, I have to ask where is the Ellis Island for Mexicans? ... Gordo? Do you know any Congressmen who might be considering a way to make the process more efficient? Any plans to enable people to enter the country legally with documents rather then putting up walls and razor wire?

There is one thing interesting in my views that is not in the progressive mold. They do need to learn English. My grandparents all did. They called my grandparents into school when my aunt was first enrolled suggesting she was "special education" material. They simply said her Ukrainian was just fine for a 5 year old. But she learned English and eventually wound up at General Motors as office staff.

Two reasons I suggest they learn the language. First, there is no way we will ever have translation of all our laws into other languages, so it is a self-imposed barrier to their assimilation. Second, America is what it is because of who we are. If immigrants kept their own cultures, they would be bringing in the system with the culture from which they fled. If that culture was preferrable, they woud have stayed there. That's the brutal truth of their emmigration and it hurts one's pride to admit that their country of origin is not all that.

On the other hand, if teh baby is born here, that child is American. There are no other prerequisites for being an American. Just like to be President, all a person needs is to be the right age, born here, and elected. {I'm pretty sure that's it. Too lazy to check it at nearly 1 a.m.}

Jack Roberts,

You write that your conclusions are based on your discussions with employers. Well, Jack, I never questioned that you are a good spokesman for employer interests on immigration policy. Indeed, your take on the issue is a good illustration of why business interests must not be allowed to dominate government [to better reflect reality, I should write "business interests should no longer be allowed to dominate government", but that's another discussion]. Let's look at your conclusions:

1 - You claim a worker shortage. There are about 16.5 million Americans who are either officially unemployed, want work but have not looked in the past four weeks, or who work part time and want full-time work. Many of these people would do agricultural work if it paid well.

2 - Undocumented workers are willing to do unpleasant work for low wages. We agree on that, Jack. You want to keep up the flow of desperate workers willing to take low wages. I want jobs for Americans at decent pay. That's a basic difference in our world view.

3 - You write: The same economic hardships that lead undocumented workers to bear considerable hardships (and often expense) to come here causes them to work harder and more reliably than many of the indigenous workers with whom they are competing.

Here, in a nutshell, is the capitalist viewpoint of labor: desperate workers are good workers. They work hard every day for cheap. I understand how your conversations with employers led you to this viewpoint. That is why you are a Republican, Jack, and I am a Democrat. It is not about understanding economics. It is about the willingness to base economic success on the suffering of workers. You are willing. I am not.

Jack,

They are not my numbers; they are released by the federal government. Of course all 16 million unemployed and underemployed would not take ag jobs, nor would that be necessary.

The "$25 apple" belies the part of food prices that pay ag worker wages.

Nothing is stopping the ag industry from automating processes.

The answer to international competition on ag products: import duties to preserve domestic food production.

As far as "getting out more", Jack, I suggest you get out to talk with workers, not only employers.

Pat,

I have worked through a temp agency. I wonder if Jack Roberts has.

Republicans love to explain the economy with free market ideology - until someone notices that public policy which swells the labor pool tends to depress wages. Then there is "no evidence to support this hypothesis."

Business interests are dishonest on the issue. The public would be insane to believe them.

Good point Jamais, Obama wants to roll back payroll tax. Instead, for employees earning minimum wage, require the employer cover payroll tax, and the Treasury refund that sum to the worker. If you want stimulus from the "ground up", that might help.

I do graphics and am familiar enough with the higher quality ink jet printers that I could probably produce a card that would pass examination by eye, and touch

Kinda doubt that. I worked in HR for 2 years. The husband has been in HR for 11 1/2. We screened out tons of SS cards by sight and most importantly touch. Even the ones that passed the "sight test" didn't make it past the "touch test". The "i-9 handbook" recommends you do both which isn't hard considering the fact that if you are properly verifying i-9 info you have to have the person hand over their documents so you can copy information (unless you have super-hero vision). Lets play a game! Everyone take out their SS cards. This only works if you have a "modern" card i.e. the "greenish" color cards. Won't work on the older white cards with red writing. Besides the type and weight of paper which is somewhat hard to copy feel on the edges. You will notice that the lovely greek columns are "raised". You can feel the ridges. I and my partner have never had a fake that could copy that. Also, there is a small water mark along the signature line that says "Social Security Administration" Hold your card up to a light and you might be able to see it. In my experience most people used a signature that was too large and with a heavy ink pen that makes it really hard to make out completely. Wasn't that fun! Try it at a party game. you might just learn something new about all your friends. :)

Jack,

I would never pretend to believe that unregulated markets lead to the greatest good, or even a tolerable situation. Many facets of the market need to be regulated, including immigration and trade. Unregulated trade is as much a disaster as unregulated immigration.

That does not mean I oppose international trade or immigration. It means I realize their are imperatives not served by unfettered movement across borders. It does not mean I oppose cross-border employment - if it is not based on the exploitation of those workers or domestic workers.

Go ahead - sing the praises of markets unfettered by government action. I think that song will sound quite out of tune this week.