Jeff,

Your poll and description is flawed. There isn't a tax on grocery bags. There's a tax on plastic and paper disposable bags. Anybody who wants to bring in their own bags won't be charged a cent.

This is a great idea, like the bottle bill, using a small, but real, economic incentive to give people a choice that takes into account the costs to society of disposal/litter created by paper/plastic.

I usually use my cloth bags, but could use the economic push as a reminder.

Jeff: the form is not loading correctly. Your buttons appear, your verbiage does not.

Surcharge a good idea. Cloth bags are ubiquitous, suggestions that schemes be constructed to assist SES-challenged people in acquiring nice cloth handle bags could become an obstacle to action; they/we could conceivably use the also-ubiquitous backpack. We do not all need to carry chic canvas bags to be enviro-shoppers.

An alternate idea, used by some coffee purveyors - five cents off on purchase if own mug is produced.

I think it's great. There was discussion on your first post about whether $.05 - $.20 is the "appropriate" economic penalty given the resulting economic cost of disposable bags. While that's an interesting question for an economist to look into, it's not actually relevant in setting the public policy. The policy is not designed to offset the cost, it's to change behavior. And as such, I think $.20 is the way to go. It's not much different than, say, a library fine for late books. Who knows what the actual "cost" is of an unreturned book to the next reader who wants it? The point of the fine isn't to recoup the cost, it's to get you to return the book.

The proposal includes subsidies to purchase reusable bags for low-income folks, so equity concerns should be taken care of. In terms of the "convenience" factor that some people raised, it's no less convenient than having to return your bottles to get your deposit back. Yes, some people will forget their bags and have to pay $1 or even $2 for disposable bags. But over time our habits will change, just like they did with bottle deposits.

I think an outright ban is also more effective. A surchase will simply add to the cynicism and will probably not have much effect.

However, I, like many others cannot discern which is worse, paper or plastic. Should both be banned?

Cloth bags can sequester bacteria after a few uses. They can also build up other harmful residues like pesticides. If cloth bags become prevalent, the public will have to understand the need for sanitation. Otherwise there may be unintended consequences. (observe how most food checkers clean the checkout surface quite regularly)

Perhaps another solution is to use the corrugated boxes that are used to ship product to grocers. This used to be the norm in the 50's when I was a grocery delivery boy. I shop at a Cash-and-Carry store for many of my groceries and not a bag, paper or plastic, is in sight there. But we use the boxes to carry out our groceries. Since Portland recycles these boxes anyway, they get one additional use before being retired.

"And I don't see what the problem is with paper bags. They're perfectly biodegradable"

That is because Sam Adams has drank too much of the eco kool-aid and belives what the other ecozealots are feeding him. Now that he will be mayor, he belives this entitles him to force a lot of the eco agenda upon the masses as he sees fit.

It would be a lot better idea if Ecozealot Sam wasn't behind it. Phased in over time, this idea would be good. Forced down our throats like Sam wants it to be is not good. Already some people are regretting their vote of this smarmy ecozealot into office.

I suspect that adding a small fee won't actually work to reduce usage much -- a few percentage points, maybe.

Didn't a nickel deposit change behavior dramatically? Isn't the nickel from the 1970s worth about $.20 now? If the average trip requires five plastic bags (I have no idea if that's true, but it seems reasonable), I think an extra $1.00 is enough to get people's attention.

Banning plastic bags is problematic because the impact of paper bags isn't much less, and arguably is a little worse. It will require more timber to be cut, but more importantly paper requires more fuel to transport. Didn't I read in the Oregonian that it's five times as much fuel?

We need people to utilize reusable bags, and the best way to do that is with a penalty.

Good Job Jeff. Now maybe, you should move to banning toilet paper? Think of how many trees we'd save. Just use a rag or bidae, Let's save the trees and planet together. Everyone join hands and hope for change. Peace.

A totally off-based solution to a real problem. Like the ubiquitous bottle bill it is a snarky view that people must be charged to do something good. Maybe back in the 70's charging a bottle deposit wa a good idea to change folks. Nowadays it is just plain stupid. take all that wasted time, energy and other resources and pt it into a meaningful curbside recycling initiative. Ditto the bags

Now, rather than just condemn, I'll offer a capitalist, libertarian alternative.

Rather than getting people to change by avoiding the disincentive of charging for outer plastic bags (I assume that the plastic bags inside that are used for fresh fruit, veggies and met are "good" bags because they protect from e-coli, salmonella and other bad stuff); creat an incentive to use cloth re-useable bags.

Set up a small, inner city cooperative that hires inner city folks to manufacture the bags. Societal good from jobs, revenue, tax base increase. Product made right in Portland for people in Portland. Partner w/Frddies, Safeway, Albertsons whomever to creat Logo bags. When the consumer shows up at "their" store w/the logo bag they get 0.05% off total purchase and are doing an environmental good by avoiding those nasty one use only bags. We'll worry about all the residual dog poop that is no longer picked up later. :-)

Kurt, I like what you say. Could be a good use of the money raised charging tossaway users in subsequent planning. A follow-up strategy once the intention to act on this issue is more than speculative badinage. Too bad it's too late for this go-round as, apparently, something regressive is already in the works. The infrastructure exists within the non profit and manufacturing/small business development sector for such a scheme. And a sensible scheme it is.

But the bottle bill works for a different reason. There is a bounty on bottles/cans that are incentives for third parties (not buyer or seller). One need only look at the automated refund machines at the supermarkets to see that they are used primarily by the bottle gleaners.

I personally find it more trouble/time than its worth to get back my deposit and usually give my cans/bottles to gleaners who come through the neighborhood.

I think that this video by GOOD magazine makes a pretty good case at why we might want to enact Portland's first carbon fee on any item.

That said, I think a phased ban could work.

Many chain restaurants and eating establishments are locally owned small business franchises. Any law that requires menu labeling needs to be all encompassing and apply equally to all eating establishments, or not at all, By targeting only the nationally known brand name eating establishments, menu labeling reeks of social engineering, is discriminatory, and if the Oregon Constitution is taken literally as was the probable intent when authored and adopted, the targeting is unconstitutional.

Article I, Section 20, “Equality of privileges and immunities of citizens” in the Oregon Constitution states: “No law shall be passed granting to any citizen or class of citizens privileges, or immunities, which, upon the same terms, shall not equally belong to all citizens.” This article is routinely ignored by the social engineering politicians that want to exercise controls on the populace.

If there was really an interest in providing more rather than less choice for the people of Multnomah County, the discussion would have centered around requiring ALL eating establishments and restaurants, so-called healthy or otherwise, to offer dollar/value priced menus. That would also be a form of social engineering, but far more acceptable than just labeling menus in the hopes that some consumer and low priced menu choices offered by fast food chains would eventually be dropped and disappear. .

Ban plastic bags if they are harmful. A twenty cent fee is too small to change the behavior of the majority of shoppers. Yes there are a few folks to whom a twenty cent per bag fee is significant, but I would wager they are a tiny and statistically insignificant minority of the Portland metro population.

If you pass a law that effectively requires shoppers to provide their own reusable bags, I wonder how long it will be until J Crew begins offering custom reusable bags with genuine ivory inlays, spotted owl feather trim, and baby seal fur grips. Not long, I imagine.

Jeff, I read your comments wiht interest describing bottle bill success. While I can not fault your figures, I do wonder how much they are scewed simply because of the huge number of fundraising groups that use the bottle bonanza in order to support their groups (little league, scouting, neighborhood watch groups, HS teams, cheerleaders, etc) Go by any store with the machines on a Saturday and count the group versus individual returns.

Further to the argument please review the Eugen Register editorial.

Jenni:

YES! YES! YES! Thank you.

As I wrote in the other related thread - it is much easier to pack the bags like you can get at Fred's than it is to pack the plastic ones. More fits into them and it fits better. I personally have found that it is easier to carry the same amount of groceries in these types of bags than the plastic ones. When a store gives me five cents for using one of my bags they really should be giving me three times that because it is very likely saving at least three bags.

The last time I was at Winco (about a month ago in Tigard) I saw a lot of people using reusable bags - either the kind you buy or bringing plastic and paper ones to reuse. People who are looking to save as much as possible are willing to bring bags to save a dollar or more. When I lived in Ohio I used to shop at the Cub Foods (which I think is related to Winco in some way) - Cub Foods charged for bags 15 years ago. It was a way to save everyone some money.

Chris:

I believe Jenni is trying to say that the consciousness of those touting this bag charge as a wonderful thing and not regressive are perhaps out of touch with the reality of those who will never be found in Trader Joe's or New Seasons. They will certainly scrounge immediately for reusable bags, in the very least from a primarily financial requisite. This is not to say that those of us working with limited means are not environmentally-conscious too. Watch those stereotypes... but I believe I read her comment as a consciousness-raising effort - to remind you that your very reference points indicate you may not really understand the significance of the pain of even a dollar lost from one's economy when lived at the level she cites. Could be wrong, of course.

On a different note: did I miss the description of the planned dispersal of cloth bags to SES-challenged? Will these be store-logo products provided at shopping sites or disseminated from a site that typically vets clients for economic status? Will these be simple bags for conveyance or adverts? What do the focus groups have to say about how a lower-income person will feel to be "branded" Winco whilst rubbing taters with someone else with a chic New Seasons on their arm? Having worked with Medicaid recipient focus groups, it actually seems to matter...

Many retail businesses are very suspicious of shoppers carrying around bags, especially opaque bags that increase the ability to shoplift. I can easily predict that shoplifting in Portland will increase, thus increasing the net cost to shoppers even more.

The problem with paper bags is that just like any other bag a store provides their customers with, people use too many of them inefficiently. I used to go to the store, bag the groceries, take them home, un-bag them, fold up the bag and toss it in the cupboard. I tried, but it never really worked to take a used bag with me back to the store to shop with; no handle, paper's kind of fragile. Soon, I'd have big stacks of almost perfectly good paper bags in my cupboard, many more than I could ever use to recycle newspapers and so forth.

Then one day, out on the street, I found an unbranded version of one of those plastic shopping baskets some stores have...that Winco's used to have for its customers until they all mysteriously disappeared into peoples homes to store everything under the sun. Since that day, the plastic basket goes with me to the store for shopping, and very rarely do I use a bag from the checkout counter. Plus, Winco knocks 6 cents off your purchase price for every bag(basket) you bring in to load your groceries.

One hitch to the plastic shopping basket, is that it takes up a fair amount of space in the car, so it took a little planning to remember to take it with me the day I decided to stop into the store after work and so forth. I didn't have a cloth bag I liked, which would have been something I could have folded and tucked behind the seats.

Then one day, downtown, folded up nicely and sitting on a trash container, was an elegant, black, heavy paper shopping bag with twisted rope handles, imprinted with the name of apparel store, Mario's on Broadway. I recycled it by taking it home with me, at the time, just because the bag was so beautiful (if you think I'm kidding, the NY Times did a story some time back about the lengths department stores go to hire designers to create elegant complimentary shopping bags). Not long after, it dawned on me that the Mario's bag would be perfect for quick trips to Winco's, plus, the bag would fold up and fit perfectly behind the seats.

Bags of this type have a cardboard bottom. They'll hold 10-15 lbs easily, and they're good for many repeated uses. With a little better care than I've given mine, it's lovely finish won't get scuffed up. (Sorry Mario's!, but thanks also!)

Maybe Starbuck's cups should be the next throwaway container to carry a deterrent use charge.

Here in Korea, they do charge for plastic bags at the supermarket. They are about 50KRW or 5 cents. They also allow people to recycle them by returning them to the store to get their deposit back.

We make sure we take two or three bags with us everytime we go shopping and reuse them until they are well worn.

Background: I am an Oregonian who has been living in Korea for the past 4 1/2 years.

Dearest Chris: the reminder to mind stereotypes was "note to self". And the reference points do speak volumes in a well-thought-out post. I still am not clear on who will decide how to get the bags to the poor. Got a link to the original document that I can veiw? Was reflecting this morning that posting about the larger political issues just seems like an incredible time waster to me, as the possibility of having any effect is slim to none for such as myself. But watching someone piss away resource on a poorly-thought-out piece of local social engineering, while being embarrassingly lowbrow to go on and on and on and on about... is at least accessible to a local nobody such as me.

I think this'll be my "ciao" to posting, I'll go back to peeking. I'm not an insider, don't pretend to unbiased and insightful abilities. And feel less-than-useful in much of anything I can offer up here. My specialty is in social research and outcomes and quality. Seems not to have any application here.

Chris Lowe:

Bags cost Winco money too.

Bob T:

Winco takes off six cents from your tab when you use your own bag. I've been using a cloth bag I was given at a Beaver game at PGE Park, but have only started using it at stores other than Wild Oats, Trader Joe's etc.

I used to being my own bag into Natures in Gresham, and they told me once that they didn't like me filling it up while shopping because it looked like I was shoplifting. No other store made such a complaint.

Bob Tiernan

The other night, I had to return a defective pair of long johns to Fred Meyer, so I carried them over in the Mario's shopping bag. Afterwords, I realized I needed to shop for Hershey's chocolate...it's priced more favorably at Target, a short walk away. So I walked over, collected my items in the Mario's bag, went to the checkout counter, and lo and behold...an observant Target checker knocked .05 cents off for using my own bag.

"I used to being my own bag into Natures in Gresham, and they told me once that they didn't like me filling it up while shopping because it looked like I was shoplifting. No other store made such a complaint." Bob Tiernan

I don't see a problem here. You carry your receipts with you for any purchases made prior to entering the store. Security is free to check your bag if there's really cause for suspicion. If there's a concern about what is going into your personal bag while shopping in the store, a store could request that customers use store carriers while shopping and transfer into personal bags at the checkout counter. I just use the shopping bag for shopping in the store because it's easier than dragging around a cart for what I usually need to buy. No store has ever questioned me about it.

ws:

I don't see a problem here. You carry your receipts with you for any purchases made prior to entering the store. Security is free to check your bag if there's really cause for suspicion. If there's a concern about what is going into your personal bag while shopping in the store, a store could request that customers use store carriers while shopping and transfer into personal bags at the checkout counter. I just use the shopping bag for shopping in the store because it's easier than dragging around a cart for what I usually need to buy. No store has ever questioned me about it.

Bob T:

I didn't say there was a real problem here - just an observation. It was one person telling me that, and only once, and in a way that made me not want to go back to that particular store. One point is that those hand baskets you refer to aren't always available, such as at a few Winco (where they want people to fill up the regular large baskets). I don't push those things around for three things. But then, Winco has never told me that they don't like it that I "look" like I'm shoplifting.

Bob Tiernan