What a joke, he actually paid! I was ordained for free at the Universal Life Church Monastery . I thought Republicans didn't like wasting money.

Oh well, you can all address me as Rev. Carl Fisher.

Me too Brother Carl!

Yup. In ONE DAY she reports new information, entertainingly.

Way to go, Carla. Mandate Media got a gem.

Ah, gotta love the church of self-aggrandizement.

Now if I can just find a place online to get that Mohel certification without taking the blasted test! I always faint at that same place.

Damn. I wish someone had told me about this before I spent three-years earning a Master of Divinity degree from Eden Theological Seminary (www.eden.edu), a graduate school accredited by the Association of Theological Schools. Not to mention all the years spent as a seminarian-in-care of the Central Pacific Conference of the United Church of Christ, the psychological exams required, and the approval of the Ministries Team of the CPC UCC, after passing my ordination exam.

Brother Currie just think, your ordination is like the aston martin of ordinations. While mine is more like the pinto of ordinations. We both still have cars, its just yours is a hell of a lot better.

Yeah. Frankly, I wouldn't want to ride in Carl's beat-up junker.

But, in all seriousness, we're not attacking anyone... we're just laughing at a joke.

What is wrong with getting an online ordination?

Other than the fact that it cheapens spirituality and religion and mocks those who've studied theology for years in order to become legitimate religious/spiritual leaders?

Perhaps Dr. Marino is encouraged by what he reads here at BlueO. Someone should be..because chances are his potential constituents won't be.

(Btw..I think I should have a spiritual and monarchial title..it suits me)

And that this new persona is "Anthony J Marino, Senior Pastor"... which is kind of a completely different persona than "Dr. Tony Marino, PhD"... who is a very different person than "Tony Marino: Recording Artist"... etc, etc.

Hey now...maybe he's just a GOP version of "renaissance man".

It could happen.

I don't know if Renaissance Man is quite the right term...

Rev. Chuck brings up an associated issue - the relevance and net value to society of going the full monty academically.

I used to know a guy who had stopped with a Bachelors of Divinity. But even so, he was able to fall back on his academic credentials to get jobs as a counselor when he chose to because counseling is a major emphasis of the real divinity degrees and doing it competently takes more than reciting verses from Scripture. Which underscores the fact that going with the academic full monty is much more than just the religious knowledge.

What Marino is peddling is a mirage...

"and none of it is really that bad."

I have to wonder--are there NO online ordination schools that are reputable? Online universities are largely scams, sure--but there are couple of legit outfits, aren't there?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that this is a scam/sham deal, but asynchronous education is the wave of the future and there's no reason it can't be just as valid as brick and mortar diplomas.

certainly there is always the risk of someone buying a cheap ordination certificate and attempting to use it to abuse the perceived power of being a minister. however, as the catholic church, and televangelists have shown, this type of power abuse would not be limited to people who buy cheap certificates.

Certainly.

That said, shelling out ordinations for $130 ($95 for the unit tests, $35 for the "graduation fee") just reeks of smarmy. While an extensive series of four year bachelor degrees, graduate degrees and doctorates are no guarantee that the bearer isn't a flim-flam artist, selling cheap ordination is certainly closer to it.

Frankly, the idea that we're "lowering the barrier to participation" in this case comes across to me as rather goofy. I might want to be a heart surgeon, but signing up on a website for 66 units of online learning and a little extra scratch for the official wallet-sized degree doesn't make me qualified for the job.

yes, but being a minister is not like being a heart surgeon.

Not totally..but in terms of being qualified to really professionally help people, they actually have many similarities. Heart surgeons obviously open up people's chests and work to heal the human heart. Pastors are just as often called upon to counsel individuals, couples and families--some teetering on disaster.

Let me put it another way, getting an online degree like this to be an ordained minister would be congruous to a physician who is certified to only use faith healing on a person suffering from a coronary blockage.

If folks who obtain these online degrees are honest and upfront about what they are--then that's another story. But what bugs me most about this is that there's no way to tell unless they disclose and its looked into. That's smarmy to me.

Ministry is more than just performing wedding ceremonies (which can be done by a judge). As has been mentioned, there are responsibilities such as pastoral care that only people trained in such matters should undertake (very much like counseling is a learned set of professional skills). Teaching is another task of ministry. Don’t you want your teachers to be qualified to teach? There is value, of course, in lay ministry but most churches – Roman Catholic, mainline, evangelical (well, most evangelical) – understand that an educated, professional clergy is central to the task of ministry. Ordination, by the way, is not a task of the school but a task of the church. What Marino is offering is nothing but a shame. There might be nothing illegal about it but it is highly unethical and nothing less than a sin.

Ohhh..I transposed the #s! Thanks, Laura.

There is value, of course, in lay ministry but most churches – Roman Catholic, mainline, evangelical (well, most evangelical) – understand that an educated, professional clergy is central to the task of ministry.

Exactly. And I think that if most folks who may have a problem with organized religion could set those issues aside then they'd readily agree that there is a net value to the larger society to having an educated, professional clergy.

Carla, you've opened the floodgates!

I wondered if it was the same Tony Marino. The picture on the virtual seminary site is small and blurry, & it looks like there's a limited hangout mullet going not on T.M.'s campaign site. And there is not a word about religion on the campaign site -- he's running as an entrepreneur. The "motivational speaker" piece of the resume is the closest. Seems to send his kids to public schools, nary a word about any sex/gender hot-button issues. So, curious, I went hunting for other links between Tony Marino and World Christian Ministries, in case Pastor Anthony J. Marino might not be Dr. Tony after all.

But he is. The on-line ordinations Carla found are offered by "World Christian Ministries." We find a Dr. Tony Marino at World Christian Ministries Podcast. At Podtactics News we find testimony to Tony Marino, Ph.D. being an "online marketing expert" and "host of the World Christian Ministries Podcast," as well as CEO of America Web Works. At that site, we find our familiar headshot of Dr. Tony, and announcements of his Oregon District 35 House campaign.

America Web Works turns out to have a stable of interesting subsidiaries affiliated with the International ePublisher's Association, also a subsidiary.

For instance, there is the Christian Times eBusiness Marketing Newsletter, which promotes a form of eBusiness Marketing that looks a lot like a multi-level marketing scheme like Amway, except that it appears that its only product is more marketing. It also advertises the following:

Tony Marino has crafted this exclusive email compliance and marketing syllabus to teach you exactly how you can effectively sail your emails seamlessly into MSN, Yahoo and AOL email accounts by simply playing by the rules.

So Dr. T. is a spam-meister, among his many other accomplishments.

A different subsidiary brings us back around to that Ph.D., and why Tony might have wanted it: ePublisher University, which according to an ad in the Christian Times and its own site, offers an "ePublisher's Master's Course."

Read carefully, though, because this is not a Master's degree. Rather, it is an opportunity to become an ePublishing Master Consultant Affiliate Partner (What's on first? No, Who's on first. Multi-level Marketing. Third Base!).

Dr. Tony's "entrepreneurship" by now has taken on a distinctly ephemeral oily smoke quality not apparent on his campaign website.

One last thing gets, perhaps, a bit more serious. Turns out that Dr. Tony has his own possibly online ordination through Ministries of Christ Assembly of Churches (www.ordination.org). MCAC's membership page listing the Rev'd. Dr. T -- interestingly, at a North Portland address different from that of his World Christian Ministries -- links to a page of strongly anti-abortion material, which in turn links to a screed of extreme vitriolic attacks on, among other things,

"new age movement in full bloom - homosexuals in political offices - the ultimate rebellion (total feminism) - the theories of evolution stated and taught as a matter of fact (not as theory)".

One starts to wonder about the fact that Dr. Tony is running as a purely secular business candidate.

Has the old Christian Coalition stealth election strategy resurfaced? If the voters of District 35 elect Tony Marino, "electronic marketing guru," on his economic Republican platform of limited government for business and economy, highway funding, and education, will they find themselves with an extreme social conservative representing them in Salem?

It's hard to say. The Rev'd Dr. Tony Marino's own Christian materials are low-key and politically innocuous. At the Christian Times Newsletter they appear to be one more device for the marketing of marketing more than anything else. So maybe MCAC was just Dr. Tony's vehicle to some particular marketing opportunities.

But it sure would be nice if the voters of District 35 knew what they were getting into.

torridjoe asked: "Are their no online ordination schools that are reputable?"

First, just as a reminder a language here, there is no such thing as an "ordination" school. The Church ordains, not the school. The function of the seminary or theological graduate school is to prepare candidates for ordination.

Some institutions are now making online classes available but such classes have the met the same criteria that regular classed do as defined by the Association of Theological Schools,, the accrediting agency. I have been a guest lecturer in one such course (a class on Public Theology) offered by Chicago Theological Seminary.

But few schools offer the full MDiv program online. The Master of Divinity degree "is the degree prerequisite for ordination in many Christian denominations [other faiths as well]. This is a professional degree that integrates rigorous academic work with participation in and reflection upon the practice of ministry. It is expected that students enrolled in this degree program are engaged with their denomination in exploring some form of ordained ministry," according to the Eden Theological Seminary website.

Because of the nature of the program it would be difficult to offer everything online. Most students take 3-4 years to complete the program attending full time.

It takes about 90 graduate-level hours to complete the degree. On top of that you are placed either in a church, hospital or social service agency to complete internships. In addition, another 400 hours of field work is required over one summer period. Students are also required to travel overseas. All the while, you are meeting with ministry groups that are made up of other students and faculty to have discussion and feedback about experiences both inside and outside the classroom. Regular worship is also party of seminary life (and don't forget the potlucks, they get you started on those early).

I'm glad that some classes are offered online but I don't think it is possibile to offer the entire program that way.

The next step for those who want to go on past the MDiv is the Doctor of Ministry degree (DMin). The DMin, unlike the MDiv, is often offered online because you are required to be in a ministry setting while studying.

Or I suppose someone could skip all this and write Marino a check. But that would be a lot like asking an MD or JD to go practice because they've watched ER or Matlock.

Clearly, I never took grammar or typing while in seminary.

Is there some secret to contacting contributors other than in the public posts?

That's coming in the new BlueOregon 2.0. For now, just post your real email address in the email field - and ask her to contact you offline. She'll get the email address, but it won't be published.

Rev. Chuck, in studying missionaries and African interactions with them in southern Africa historically, including the emergence of unorthodox African Initiated Churches, as they usually are called now, I had an impression that at least at one time ordination within orthodox Christian churches required some kind of formal relationship to the apostolic succession, and usually a ceremony involving a laying on of hands, if memory serves -- something that appeared to have survived the several early Church schisms as well as the Protestant reformation and subsequent Protestant denominational proliferation.

Is that just completely wrong? Or has it changed?

E.g. I assume that the Universal Life Church of which we have several ministers here, apparently, is not actually a Christian church of any sort, any more the late lamented 24 Hour Church of Elvis.

Do such considerations have any bearing on the sort of on-line ordination we're looking at here?

Join our ranks Chris! The church has ordained over 20 million ministers since 1959! I'm sure no one would mind if that number was 20 million and 1.

Now, the only other church I would feel compelled to become a minister in is The First Church of Shatnerology.

thanks for the reply, Chuck! James, I didn't suggest the school was legit, only that online doesn't automatically mean crap.

I didn't invent the term asynchronous ed, but I guess it IS a bit nerdy.

Anyone remember Church of the Subgenius? "Give me slack, or give me food--or kill me!"

Rev. Carl Fisher, I have only one thing to say to you:

A: "It's a wave" B: "It's a particle" A: "It's a wave" B: "It's a particle" A: "It's a wave" B: "It's a particle" ....

:->