SurveyUSA: Obama's lead narrows; gender gap closes fast
Tonight, SurveyUSA released their latest poll in the Presidential primary race. The poll surveyed 650 likely voters - and had a margin of error of 3.9%.
The latest numbers (crosstabs here):
50% Barack Obama
44% Hillary Clinton
2% Other
4% Undecided
Three weeks ago (crosstabs here):
52% Barack Obama
42% Hillary Clinton
3% Other
3% Undecided
SurveyUSA's summary:
Clinton Closes-In On Obama in Oregon Democratic Primary: In a Democratic Primary in Oregon today, 05/01/08, three weeks till votes are counted, Barack Obama edges Hillary Clinton 50% to 44%, according to a SurveyUSA poll conducted exclusively for KATU-TV in Portland. Compared to an identical SurveyUSA tracking poll released 3 weeks ago, Obama is down 2, Clinton is up 2. Obama had led by 10, now leads by 6 -- small movement to be sure, and within the survey's margin of sampling error, but movement away from Obama and to Clinton nonetheless. Among voters younger than Obama, Obama leads by 15. Among voters older than McCain, Clinton leads by 15. The Gender Gap has shrunk from 37 points to 22 points. Among females, Clinton had led by 7, now by 4. Among males, Obama had led by 30, now by 18. Clinton leads narrowly among voters focused on the Economy and on Health Care. Obama leads among voters focused on Iraq.
Discuss.
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8:24 p.m.
May 1, '08
I think their summary is a little misleading, the numbers have slightly changed but they are well within the margin of error. Nothing has really changed.
May 1, '08
Months of being hammered by the Clinton/McCain team, and surprise! His poll numbers are going down! Hers aren't going up, but no matter, she's only focused on tearing down.
Her (and her remaining supporter's) lack of concern for progressive issues is alarming. Her supporters need to follow Joe Andrew's lead and let her know- it's time for us to come together to defeat McCain.
"But as much as I respect and admire them both, it is clear that a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists John McCain." - Joe Andrew
9:49 p.m.
May 1, '08
"I think their summary is a little misleading, the numbers have slightly changed but they are well within the margin of error. Nothing has really changed."
Spot on. The summary should be "Clinton possibly making inroads."
May 1, '08
If you look at the methodology you can clearly see that the screen they applied is a pro-Clinton one. For example, they say they interviewed 1600 registered voters and then made a sample of that with 600 likely voters. However, given the MASSIVE party changers here in Oregon (my county went from slight R edge to a D edge) take this with a major grain of salt. In a normal primary this poll might be true but this year we'll see MASSIVE turnout, which probably heavily benefits Obama.
May 1, '08
Between Bill, Chelsea and Hillary, the Clintons have spent quite a bit of time here in Oregon since the last poll was conducted.
Hopefully Obama will be able to get back here after the primaries on Tuesday and move his poll numbers back up. And (do we dare hope) that the Wright fiasco may begin to die down - even just a little before our primary.
I'd love to see Oregon give Obama at least a 10-point victory!
May 2, '08
Actually, I heard about this on NPR tonight. The poll was conducted prior the Rev. Wright stuff over the weekend and just after the "bitter" comments.
12:42 a.m.
May 2, '08
Actually, according to Survey USA, the poll was conducted this past Monday through Wednesday, which definitely falls after the Rev. Wrights stuff:
Geography: Oregon Data Collected: 04/28/2008 - 04/30/2008 Release Date: 05/01/2008 Sponsor: KATU-TV Portland
http://tinyurl.com/57xj98
May 2, '08
Lead narrows?
The real numbers that matter are those on the delegate count and Barack has had a great week in that regard.
His lead has actually INCREASED on the delegate count after Pennsylvania and now he is only 283 delegates away from the Democratic nomination.
May 2, '08
What surprises me in both Survey USA polls is that Obama runs better outside of Portland. What's going on up there? I must run in different circles, I don't actually know of a person who supports Hillary, I know they are out there but 44%? Really? Just really surprises me.
May 2, '08
As Hillary rises in the polls - SDs endorse Obama because the DC establishment and elites support him.
The DC establishment also includes the media that CONCEALED damaging info about Obama until most of the Primary was over.
This primary could be called the Great Bamboozlement since the media and DC establishment have promoted an empty suit for president - while Obama plays the Race Card against the Clintons and incites his followers to "beat the B***h!"
The media sold us Bush in 2000, the Iraq War - and now Obama.
May 2, '08
The SUSA link is to the Senate race - not the presidential race.
9:06 a.m.
May 2, '08
Thanks, JoseyJ, the link is fixed.
May 2, '08
Someone contends the media is a friend to Barrack? Certainly not Fox or CNN. Unfortunately Hillary's modest climb has nothing to do with her performance, but instead the unexpressed racism embodied by the fear of his pastor.
May 2, '08
this year we'll see MASSIVE turnout, which probably heavily benefits Obama
and
I'd love to see Oregon give Obama at least a 10-point victory!
and
"I don't actually know of a person who supports Hillary,"
You guys have said the same things in advance of every primary so far. And every time you've been shocked when Clinton outperformed your expectations.
It's part of the congnitive dissonence that the Obama fan experiences every time he or she is confronted with the fact of Hillary Clinton's continued support: "I get chills up my legs whenever I see his handsome image on my tv screen, so everyone must get the same chills as I do... none of my friends ever contradict me when I tell them about how awesome he is... so that must mean the millions of people who keep voting for Clinton don't really exist!"
John
9:40 a.m.
May 2, '08
Matthew, the text intro is vague but clearly this means "leads in the Oregon primary" which is a legitimate topic.
JoseyJ, you represent the type of Hillary supporter who hurts her because people wonder is your lies and misrepresentations are promoted or condoned by the Clinton campaign.
Just when did Senator Obama supposedly make the statement you put in quotes? Just how has Senator Obama "played the race card"? And would you deny that the Clinton campaign has "played the race card" at times in the campaign?
9:42 a.m.
May 2, '08
That would be, "wonder if</f> your lies and misrepresentations are promoted or condoned."
9:43 a.m.
May 2, '08
tags, tags, tags
May 2, '08
i don't know how much this has to do with his support outside portland, but i've noticed elsewhere that the town i live in is absolutely plastered with obama yardsigns, while i haven't seen a single one for clinton.
on the other hand, he's opened an office here, as well as field offices in, what, i think 9 or 10 other communities OUTSIDE portland. if clinton has another office in the willamette valley, i've not heard about it.
but oh yeah, wait, it takes $MONEY$ to open field offices...
May 2, '08
Jenni, I meant after the Rev. Wright stuff that happened over this past weekend when he said the government created AIDS, etc.
May 2, '08
FoxNews O'Reilly Interview of Sen.Hillary Clinton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9cpABTKco&eurl= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yPU3CRm_E&eurl=
Analysis by Joe & Pat Buchanan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhVICkeedF8
Sen.Hillary Clinton is the best candidate in the running, period! They agree. It is upto you and I to make sure we further her in the race. I hope you will do that for all our sakes.
God BLESS America.
May 2, '08
The trends are shifting.. Hear from an ordinary citizen in NC who has become an ardent supporter of Hillary Clinton.
YouTube - Karma is a B*tch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEzPYQTHnis
May 2, '08
AMERICA'S CHOICE FINAL VERSION: Barack V. Hillary: http://www.veoh.com/videos/v639561038xa5ctK?searchId=7463654096325816320&rank=1 COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF: http://flags4hill.com ECONOMIST-IN-CHIEF: http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/site/14081545/?video=700530203&play=1 POLISHED AS GOLD: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nX3Cr9NHvI REFERENCE CHECK: www.thehillaryiknow.com SEN.CLINTON'S SOLUTIONS: www.hillaryclinton.com/issues
11:04 a.m.
May 2, '08
quoting Joe and Pat? Is skmckinney really an Obama plant?
May 2, '08
I wish people would stop focusing so much on what the polls say and start talking about what the candidates stand for, their styles, and what they can bring to the office of president.
In my humble opinion, Obama has taken several brave stands, including refusing to denounce his former pastor. After all, Rev. Wright might be nuts, but he still has the right to free speech under the 1st amendment and if he was a good mentor and friend to the Obamas, why should Obama denounce him? Don't friends (and former teachers and students) get to disagree and still be friends, or should people only associate with people who think exactly like they do? I wish Obama had taken a stronger stand in defense of his former pastor's right to free speech and of diversity in friendships, but he still impressed me by taking a dissenting view on the other candidates' stupid idea of a gas tax holiday that will save only up to $50 at the pump this summer but will drain the federal highway and bridge program, not to mention lulling people into a false sense that our oil supply is not in big trouble. As slick as Obama is, I get the feeling he's willing to risk his candidacy to support smart policies. Most politicians are too timid, trying to attain or retain power, to put forth policies that may not be popular. At least he is forcing Americans to think.
May 2, '08
I wish they would add religion to these polls. I am curious as to how people are falling in that context. Religion is in fact the reason I can not vote for Obama. The following link is to a flyer he has been mailing out.Click Here
I will never vote for someone that I feel needs to get their answers from god.
12:02 p.m.
May 2, '08
check the crosstabs for the religiosity breakdown...
May 2, '08
torridjoe, you have to see the video clips to understand the significance. Even Morning Joe and Pat Buchanan are saying she is the best candidate! How cool is that! Enjoy!! :)
Please visit my posts and visit the links. They are really awesome and positively energizing. They give reason to have good hope for the future with the benefit of the experience and smarts Hillary Clinton has to offer us. She will be a terrific president. Thanks all. AMERICA'S CHOICE FINAL VERSION: Barack V. Hillary: http://www.veoh.com/videos/v639561038xa5ctK?searchId=7463654096325816320&rank=1 COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF: http://flags4hill.com ECONOMIST-IN-CHIEF: http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/site/14081545/?video=700530203&play=1 POLISHED AS GOLD: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nX3Cr9NHvI REFERENCE CHECK: www.thehillaryiknow.com SEN.CLINTON'S SOLUTIONS: www.hillaryclinton.com/issues
May 2, '08
Mulvey sez:It's part of the congnitive dissonence that the Obama fan experiences every time he or she is confronted with the fact of Hillary Clinton's continued support: "I get chills up my legs whenever I see his handsome image on my tv screen, so everyone must get the same chills as I do... none of my friends ever contradict me when I tell them about how awesome he is... so that must mean the millions of people who keep voting for Clinton don't really exist!"
I don't get chills up my legs. I don't assume everyone shares my opinions. I don't even use the word "awesome". But I'm still planning the get out my #2 pencil and fill in the oval next to Obama's name. I just think he's the better candidate.
I'm don't treat Clinton supporters like empty-headed groupies, Mr Mulvey; please quit treating me that way.
P.S. You apparently forgot to add a snide remark about Obama supporters all being latte drinking, Prius driving, Birkenstock wearing trust-fund babies.
May 2, '08
chad, obama doesn't need to get his answers from god, he IS god!!
signed, glassy-eyed cultist. with shivers up her legs.
May 2, '08
You people who keep saying that Jeremiah Wright is nuts would have said the same thing about MLK in 1968.
Aside from Wright's claims about AIDS, I have heard nothing that I would disagree with, and even on the AIDS issue, it seems clear that the failure to treat AIDS victims was based on bigotry (against both the homosexual and Black communities). Whether U.S. policy-makers decided not to treat or to actually inject the virus makes no difference to the dead and their families.
I do not support Obama, who is an inferior candidate to Ralph Nader, but this Wright bullshit is beyond the pale (no pun intended).
May 2, '08
Maybe my eyes aren't working today, but I don't see a post in this thread where someone said Wright was nuts? I actually never thought the clips they kept running were bad but that's just my opinion. I happen to think it's ridiculous to call an african american church racist. I did think some of the stuff he said over the weekend was off, the AIDs stuff, the Farrakhan stuff. Worst of all was when he said Obama agreed with everything he said but was just being political. I have a feeling that was the turning point for Obama. My point was that the poll was taken after Wright was out this weekend saying the AIDs and Farrakhan stuff and I doubt the rest of public agrees with me that Wright isn't, as you say, nuts.
May 2, '08
Clinton's numbers are going up, locally and nationally; 9 points ahead of McCain, while Obama is tied.
Obama has a problem and it's his ego. Take an honest look folks, Sen. Obama tried to start a conversation about race, with the Philadephia speech; but truthfully, he just wanted to deflect from his negative association. When Rev. Wright made his rounds, he didn't say anything new, EXCEPT, that Obama made the speech because he is a politician and had to. Think about that, he wasn't angry until the Rev. told the truth about him. This was already planned; search the NYT for Apr.30,2007; last two paragraphs; Wright and Obama had already spoken, a year ago, about the distancing. He wasn't angry about the anti-american rants, for which he has sat for 20 years listening to; only when HE is called out as just another politician. The only discussion about race, is when it is expediate for him and when his supporters want to claim others are racist if they don't vote for him.
Take a good look at Obamas' Oregon Plan; especially his "Great Lakes" reference and his 1.1 million "pennsylvania" veterans. This guy is a fake.
Don't make an uninformed vote, find out for youself what you're voting for.
Go google his name in conjunction with these: Ayers, Rezko, Auchi, Khalidi, Abunimah, RAILA ODINGA.
The republicans already know....
May 2, '08
JoseyJ and skmckinney do not help Clinton with their silliness. Hillary Clinton is no insurgent candidate and nothing from FauxNews has any credibility here, paricularly the opinions of folks like O'Reilly and Scarborough.
1:10 p.m.
May 2, '08
"Even Morning Joe and Pat Buchanan are saying she is the best candidate!"
...for them to piss on. Get a clue.
May 2, '08
Cindy, Here's my favorite quote from the Oregonian story on the two campaign's plans for Oregon:
"Clinton spokeswoman Julie Edwards said that an "Oregon plan should focus on Oregon . . . We're really looking forward to seeing Senator Obama's upcoming plan to protect salmon runs in the Chicago River."
Shapiro said Obama, an Illinois senator, is proud of his leadership in efforts to reduce pollution in the Great Lakes, which he said is an important example for voters in all states. He said the Clinton jibes were "cheap, divisive Washington, D.C., political games."
Huh? So now not only debating is a cheap, DC game but so is seeing Obama's upcoming plan to protect salmon? Seriously, even Obama supporters have to know that saying everything is a cheap, DC political game doesn't work every single time?
May 2, '08
Katy - Meryl said: "After all, Rev. Wright might be nuts..." on this thread, and similar statements have been made for weeks on BO about Wright, who is not running for president (even if he might be a better candidate than Obama or Clinton).
What I heard Wright say about Farrakhan was not offensive to me, and I'm a Jew who has taken BO posters to task for their anti-Semitism. What he said about Obama's politically motivated distancing seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Obama is a politician and not a religious icon. He may be different from Clinton, but it is not a qualitative difference. Nader is qualitatively different:
Ralph Nader Rally Tuesday May 13th 7:30pm Benson High 546 NE 12th Ave Portland,Oregon $10 contribution/ $5 student/low-income (no one turned away) More Info Call - (503)484-6626 or [email protected]
May 2, '08
Harry, Thanks - my eyes must not be working today!
1:49 p.m.
May 2, '08
Jenni, I meant after the Rev. Wright stuff that happened over this past weekend when he said the government created AIDS, etc.
I know. And the poll was done after those comments were made. The last weekend that we had was April 26th and 27th. This poll was done April 28th-30th. Therefore, it fell after Rev. Wright's most recent remarks.
1:52 p.m.
May 2, '08
Katy, you seem like a decent person who honestly supports Hillary Clinton and perceives great strengths and values in her. It is not worthy of you or of Hillary Clinton to smear Barack Obama with Reverend Wright, including great lies and exaggerations about him, as well as his real enough faults, for which Senator Obama is not responsible.
Actually I don't think the Rev'd Wright is nuts at all, just intemperate at times, plus believing one implausible conspiracy theory. (Given what I run into about 9/11, I don't find the existence of such a theory that unusual, nor that different from the willingness of some of the same t.v. pundits who presume to judge the Rev'd Wright to peddle lurid and false images of African sexuality to explain the origins and spread of HIV/AIDS in the 1980s and 1990s).
Although the Trinity UCC congregation is primarily African-American, it is part of the United Church of Christ, a largely white denomination descended from the Puritans via Congregationalism plus some mergers. His congregation is the largest in the denomination in the U.S. and has made substantial contributions to the national organization that benefit worshipers of all races and ethnicities. I.e. the claims that he or the congregation are racial separatists are false.
Over 350 UCC pastors have issued a statement in support of the Rev'd Wright's overall work as a pastor both within his specific congregational setting, and within the denomination. (As the older name Congregationalism suggests, the denomination is characterized by placing a high degree of autonomy and governance responsibility at the congregationaly level, in distinction from the Episcopal Church whose name in the same way emphasizes the role of bishops in the Anglican communion). Many white persons who have visited and worshipped with the congregation attest to warm welcomes, including the noted historian of U.S. religion Martin Marty of the University of Chicago.
The hot-button quotes are extreme and atypical examples of his preaching over a period of 36 years. Senator Obama's remaining part of the congregation for 20 years was not based on his hearing such speech over and over again on a weekly basis, but presumably on forbearance for occasional atypical expressions if he heard them at all.
The Revd Wright in explaining his theological perspective places it within what he calls "the prophetic tradition" of the Black Church in the U.S. This idea is also used by thinkers such as Cornell West, a professor of Religion and an ordained minister who teaches at that bastion of separatism Princeton University (you know, famous as the Ivy where the rich scions of the Old South white elite went, where Woodrow Wilson, first U.S. president to show a film in the White House started off with a bang with D.W. Griffiths pro-Klan "Birth of a Nation" in 1915). West is well-known in some circles for his work with Rabbi Michael Lerner in promoting the "Breaking Bread" project for Jewish & African-American dialogue. You'll remember Rabbi Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine -- title from the Hebrew, referring to the Jewish ethical injuntion to "make the world whole." He's the one who developed the idea of "the politics of meaning," one of whose main embracers was ... that's right, Hillary Rodham Clinton.
This "prophetic tradition" in the African-American church looks to the Old Testament (as seen from a Christian perspective) for views especially on justice, and is rooted in the prominence of redemption from literal slavery in many Hebrew Bible narratives. Christianity takes up the metaphorical levels of such redemption stories and extends them by treating sin in general as a form of "slavery" from which humanity must be "redeemed."
(The very notion of redemption is a slavery metaphor, referring to forms of slavery often called "pawning" in the scholarly literature, in which poor families sometimes are forced by circumstances to sell members into slavery for a long-term and potentially permanent loan, but on a basis where they can be bought back or redeemed, if the family can raise the money. Such forms of slavery were widespread in pre-capitalist Africa and the Middle East, and are found today in slavelike child labor situations in some industries in India and Pakistan that are the focus of periodic anti-globalization protests.)
The affinity of African-American worship for the Old Testament and the prominence of Moses as a figure behind Jesus in the Black Church is well recognized by historians of African-American religion and of slavery in the U.S. as being present in the earliest forms of black Christianity, both its illegal forms under slavery in the Old South, and among free blacks in the Northeast, whether within churches with white people or in their own denominations such as the African Methodist Episcopal Church, formed in the late 1700s in Philadelphia. Moses, the prophets, escape from bondage and the prophets' injunctions to do justice have formed consistent elements of African-American preaching and worship ever since.
The rhetoric of the Revd. Martin Luther King, Jr., to take the example probably best known to white Americans, is redolent of this tradition. It is found in his 1963 speech at the March on Washington, usually called the "I Have a Dream" speech, but might perhaps also be thought of as the "Let Justice Roll Down" speech, since one of its most powerful moments is when King quotes the prophet Amos: "Let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream." It is found in his final speeches where King places himself in a Moses-like position when he says "I may not make it with you to the Promised Land."
And this idea of justice cannot be separated from the idea that white Americans and white America have been and continue to be guilty of injustice. The Revd King believed that. He was in the tradition of the abolitionists, black and white both, who saw slavery as a national sin, and ultimately saw the Civil War as a national punishment for that since, in the words of the (white abolitionist) Julia Ward Howe, justice in the punitive sense, God "trampling out the vinyards where the grapes of wrath are stored," and "loos[ing] the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword" -- seeing such justice as "God's Truth" marching on.
King's vision of justice saw white America as capable of being redeemed from its sins as an alternate form of justice, but in his Christian idiom, such redemption required and requires sincere repentance. The Revd. Wright's preaching and his actions and the actions of his congregation over the whole course of his career likewise clearly see white America as redeemable.
But that is not the same as saying we have truly repented and been redeemed, not only for the sins of the slavery era but those of the "redemption" era of the white South from Reconstruction (the peak of the lynching era) and from those of the Jim Crow era from the 1890s to 1960s, living memory for many of us, and of extra-legal racism beyond that time (I am a child of the busing era in Boston when a black man was speared with a sharp-ended flag pole bearing an American flag, in front of the Massachusetts statehouse and a statue commemorating the all-black 54th Massachusetts Regiment whose courageous Civil War battles and tragic racist-imposed fate are depicted in the film Glory).
While that remains the case, black people often have a need and have every right to look to their own resources to defend and strengthen themselves. This is not racist separatism, but it is what the Trinity United Church of Christ represents in a black neighborhood of Chicago that embodies how our society remains residentially segregated, even while being an important part of the UCC as a denomination.
It is not any more separatist the King's Ebenezer Baptist Church. The Ebenezer Baptist Church not only has a black congregation, but belongs to the National Baptist Convention, a black denominational body created after the Civil War to escape the racism of the Southern Baptist Convention, itself created to defend slavery against anti-slavery northern Baptists. None of this embodies racist separatism. It embodies self-defense and self-strengthening.
While we in white America remain unredeemed, or incompletely redeemed, from those histories, it is hardly surprising that even a black minister may express anger, even intemperately or unwisely, upon occasion.
Barack Obama is not responsible for those expressions. He does not make them himself.
In fact, there is an odd way in which I think some what people see Obama's relationship to white people as offering himself as a sort of Moses figure to us. I am not saying this is intentional on his part or conscious, if true at all, among those of his white followers to whom it may apply. But I do think possibly it may have a bearing on some of the emotional response to him by many white Americans. On a sort of cultural-psychological level, that resonates with powerful culturally embedded images from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, there may be in part a feeling that if white Americans can accept a black man as their leader, he may lead us out of the wilderness of our racial history and racism in society, culture and psychology.
Be that as it may, the Rev'd Wright is not a demon, nor what he is made out to be on the basis of a few quotes taken apart from the overall context of how he has lived his life and how he led his congregation before he retired.
That included the positive messages of inspiration which are what Barack Obama has chosen to take from what he had to offer.
For even if the false image of Wright were truer than it is, if Obama really had taken up those views, he would not be running the kind of campaign he is.
If Wright really were a racist separatist and Obama really accepted that, he would not be running as a candidate of unity, of overcoming differences. He would be an advocate of separatism, which clearly he is not.
1:56 p.m.
May 2, '08
Oops, didn't finish the sentence about Woodrow Wilson being president of Princeton (before gov. of New Jersey and president of the U.S.).
May 2, '08
Chris, Huh? I was agreeing with you about Rev. Wright!
Jenni, Last night on NPR they said this poll was done prior to the weekend but after the bitter comment. I guess they were wrong? Somebody should write them a letter! haha.
2:14 p.m.
May 2, '08
Katy:
It appears so. I didn't hear what they said on NPR, I'm just going by the official info from SurveyUSA.
Maybe they had their polls mixed up?
May 2, '08
In fact, there is an odd way in which I think some what people see Obama's relationship to white people as offering himself as a sort of Moses figure to us. I am not saying this is intentional on his part or conscious, if true at all, among those of his white followers to whom it may apply. But I do think possibly it may have a bearing on some of the emotional response to him by many white Americans. On a sort of cultural-psychological level, that resonates with powerful culturally embedded images from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, there may be in part a feeling that if white Americans can accept a black man as their leader, he may lead us out of the wilderness of our racial history and racism in society, culture and psychology.
wow.
just: wow.
lots to think about there.
May 2, '08
Katy: You're welcome. Even Nader makes mistakes.
re: "the prophets' injunctions to do justice": This means us.
We must withdraw all personnel from Iraq to home starting now and finish in six months. We must provide health care, food, and shelter to all in need. We must institute criminal proceedings against only those who deserve them, beginning with those in high office. We must stop supporting the crimes of our proxies in the Middle East. We must pay reparations to those we have harmed. But, most of all, we must initiate a program of truth and reconciliation, using the South African model. That would be justice.
As Jeremiah Wright knows, too many crimes have been committed and too few have redeemed themselves.
4:18 p.m.
May 2, '08
Katy, I apologize. My error entirely in misinterpreting the way you were raising the nature of Obama's political problems caused by how Wright is treated in the media, & skipped ahead before reading what you wrote further down. Afraid I can't blame my eyes, it's my brain to blame. :-(
Silver lining is that this does confirm my impression that you are a decent, thoughtful, independent-minded person, as no doubt are millions of Hillary Clinton's supporters.
What Cindy wrote a little after you about Obama listening to twenty years of anti-American rants is the kind of thing I was referring to. But again, I apologize for tarring you with that brush, completely unfairly.
The tendency of some supporters of each candidate to lump all supporters of the other together and to attribute to them all the worst features they find is some is one of the destructive dynamics it would be good to get out of. I'm sorry that my haste led me to do that.
May 2, '08
Chris:
Though I found your response informative, I will not buy into the white-guilt theory; or the "ONE"-"Messiah" either.
As you have tried to defend Rev. Wright, I believe you left a few things out.
Go look up the Black Liberation Theology and the Black Value System. Neither of these JUST supports the african-american members of society, they specifically denote that they should preserve only the black perspective.
I found from the first visit to the website of T.U.C.C., the most offensive was the "allegience to Africa". I believe that ALL Americans have a right to know and vote for the president of these United States, and if their prospective nominee has an allegience to another country, then they should weigh that and decide if that is where their allegience is.
By any chance did you google any of the names I gave you ? Doubtful, as I don't believe you want to see the truth.
5:36 p.m.
May 2, '08
The decider for me was listening to Michelle Obama on the long CNN interview the other night. I would MUCH rather listen to her for the next four years than one more word out of Bill Clinton's mouth.
May 2, '08
I also find it interesting that the press has chosen to focus so much of it's energy on Rev. Wright while McCain gets away with enthusiastically accepting the endorsement from fundamentalist bigot Pastor John Hagee.
6:24 p.m.
May 2, '08
Cindy,
Please do not misinterpret me by implying or inferring that somehow I regard Obama as a messiah. I don't believe in any messiahs. I think the social psychology of responses to Barack Obama are exceedingly complex, and if there is anything at all to what I was suggesting, it would only be an element of a bigger mosaic (so to speak) or more likely kaleidescope.
To take a different tack, in the broad sweep of African-American intellectual history there is a tension between ways of placing black Americans in relation to the U.S. One kind of tendency to stress the differences of black experiences and Pan-African connections across the diaspora, seen most often when black people are experiencing a sense of rejection and hopelessness about ever gaining full acceptance and equality in the U.S. I see the Reverend Wright as somewhat in that mode.
Conversely there have been tendencies to argue that black people are the most American of Americans, in part because slavery cut them off from specific cultural/ethnic roots to specific African cultures -- while we have Irish-Americans and Swedish-Americans and Italian-Americans and Arab-Americans and Chinese-Americans and so on, until the period since 1965 there were no Yoruba-Americans or Zulu-Americans or Eritrean-Americans or (like Barack Obama's father) Luo-Americans.
So the argument went that U.S. black people were more wholly formed in their culture by their experiences in the U.S. This mode of thinking has maybe been particularly associated with post-war periods when black people have asserted their claims by reference to service to the nation. Also in some periods (maybe especially ca. 1890-1920) with more formally educated "middle-class" blacks, often with clear, relatively recent partial white ancestry. And the two can co-exist, e.g. in the 1920s & 1930s where you see the rise of popular Garveyism and the Negro intellectual and artistic renaissance and the emergence of jazz as a U.S.-defining cultural idiom across races.
In that light, Barack Obama seems to me more at the "most American of Americans" pole, except with a new twist. He personally is more literally an "African-American" in the classic hyphenated-American sense found in most white ethnic identities, and more specifically, a Kenyan-American or Luo-American -- he has not had his immigrant family roots cut off or obscured by the deracinations of slavery. At the same time he is American in a different sense by virtue of having a white Anglo mother. And yet again he is married to a powerfully intelligent African-American woman in the more usual sense with a strong & healthy sense of pride in that identity, and their children bring together all of these strands of ancestry and cultural background. So Barack Obama, seen not just by himself but in the context of his family, embodies the possibilities of convergence and integration in the person of an attractive, highly intelligent, articulate, ambitious, able man -- in a sense what America might become more fully if we could rectify some of the worse aspects of our racial histories (though all of this is also getting more complicated as "race" moves away from its overwhelming definition through the white-black slavery-rooted dyad, which of course never worked so well in the West anyway -- but still his father's "new immigrant" status -- post 1965 immigration reform -- & immigration from a Muslim community even captures some of this).
I am not sure what you mean by "the white-guilt theory". Are you saying that white people in the United States have no responsibility for the history of racial inequality and oppression that has deeply shaped this country? If so, you simply are in denial of fundamental historical and cultural facts, and it is you who don't want to see the truth.
If you are talking about something more psychological I don't know what you mean among several possibilities.
Actually I had done some of your Google searches before you even mentioned them. I am familiar with Bill Ayers from long before he became an issue in this campaign, and the whole sorry history of the Weather Underground (are you a Bill Walton fan, btw?). I am also familiar with the ways elements of the Clinton camp, evidently with some reach into the actual campaign, given Hillary's brief effort to raise it in one debate before giving up because she realized no one not already immersed would understand what she meant, have tried to smear Obama by association with Tony Rezko. I've followed up those lines and as far as I am concerned they confirm my sense that Obama is a politician, not a saint, but they are not of an order of magnitude different from various somewhat dodgy things in the Clinton past (never mind John McCain's). I do intend to follow up the others. Is Khalidi a reference to Rashid Khalidi? Is Raila Odinga the Kenyan politician, son of Oginga Odinga (Jomo Kenyatta's great rival) who was involved in the electoral dispute and crisis with Mwai Kibaki? From what I know of each of them up to now I don't see why either should pose a problem for Barack Obama, but I will see where your searches lead me. The other names I don't know & won't voice my suppositions about, since they may be wrong.
But really, it is not true that I am not interested in the truth. I have never been a strong Obama partisan -- but I have been a scholar of African and African-American history and culture for over 25 years with a strong commitment to truth as best I can understand it (though with distinct ideas as well about the limits of that for any of us, including me). And most of the criticism of Reverend Wright is shallow, misleading and out of context.
Your statement that Black Liberation Theology "denote[s] that [it] should preserve the black perspective" is simply false. This is not me not wanting to know the truth, it is you not knowing very much about a rather wide and complicated field of thought with many internal debates. The Black Value System as I have seen it exposed on the TUCC website appears to be an idiosycratic formulation of ideas that I interpret as much more open than you apparently do. We could debate that if you want.
Africa is not a country, it is a continent. An allegiance to Africa in this context is a call to reject very deep-rooted pressures in American culture to be ashamed of Africanness and African ancestry, and to reject many false or distorted stereotypes about Africa.
In any case, as far as I can see, whatever the TUCC website may say, Barack Obama seems to me to have expressed much less "allegiance" or attachment of any sort to Africa (or Kenya or the Luo people) than say Ted Kennedy or any number of other Irish-American politicians have for Ireland, or Joe Lieberman or the late Tom Lantos have/had for Israel, and so on. This is a weak canard, akin to accusations that John F. Kennedy would be in thrall to the Pope.
Ireland and Israel are among the very small handful of countries with which the U.S. will recognize dual citizenship (we are quite narrow in that respect compared to many other countries, actually). I wonder if you raised similar questions about Joe Lieberman when he was Al Gore's running mate? They would have been just as misplaced as these questions, but if you didn't, in addition to being a canard, it would show a double standard.
Well, off to some googling. See ya 'round.
6:30 p.m.
May 2, '08
Right on about Hagee, Katy. And it's different too because McCain specifically sought and received Hagee's political endorsement.
May 2, '08
Chris:
Dang, I have to take notes, before I can respond.
I will admit to not being an african scholar, as my own heritage is from native to several european ancestries.
My point of the white-guilty vote, is one of personal perspective. Several persons I know have stated, don't you feel guilty as to how african-americans have been treated. Absolutely. It is also, not a valid reason to just give my vote for a candidate. You see, I have never been racist. I. Natives have been mistreated as well, but I wouldn't just vote for a person, based on them being Indian.
As far as the Rezko, that trial is going on now and we'll have to wait to see what comes out of that. The fact that Sen. Obama supported and threw support to Rezko's real estate enterprise, for the low-income housing contracts and then they both sat back and did nothing about the conditions/heat for those folks, makes me mad.
Yes, I am speaking of Rashid Khalidi.
Yes, I am speaking of Raila Odinga, son of Oginga Odinga. I am outrage at the violence from this last presidential election. I am very concerned of the MOU and Sharia Law implications. Sen. Obama campaigned for Mr. Odinga and financially donated.
Finally, I would like to bring up the fact that I don't support Sen. Obamas' Global Poverty ACT. 484 billion dollars, over 10 years, maybe 13 years, to the "poor" nations, for which the U.S. is not considered; and, to go to the United Nations to be rationed. The corruption that has existed within that Organizations food distribution, leaves me to believe we could do a better job, coming straight from the U.S. .
Nice chatting, have to go to work; happy googling.
May 2, '08
Rashid Khalidi is a professor of Arab studies at the Middle East Institute at Columbia University. He "will be a problem" for Obama only for anti-Arab-anti-Semites. The attempt to vilify Obama by association with such an outstanding scholar is despicable.
Khalidi 1
Khalidi 2
9:10 p.m.
May 2, '08
Katy, are you telling me you've missed that the cable news networks have been playing the Rev Wright vids for well over a month? all that changed in the past week was they got more video to use. but they still always go back to the tried and true, the bad boogie man witch doctor in his scary dashiki. we've had that for over a month now, and it's having the expected effect.
and you say it's not that bad?
of course not. the net result helps Hillary, and tell me this: has she once said, enough? no. not once. she's got no problem with this version of Willy Horton being used against Obama, and that's the reason so many SDs are turning to Obama: they are sick of her using right-wing tactics to hurt a good Democrat. tell me: when has Obama said anything about Monica Lewinsky? you have heard nothing about that, not even a hint.
you're happy with Hillary's use of this racist imagery? that's just sad.
May 2, '08
Wake up Oregon! Goodle Obama and Larry Sinclair. Its still not too late to stop a disastrous Obama candidacy.
May 2, '08
TA, Sad for me, but I don't have TV. Just dvds for past few months. That, and the newpapers and the internet. I have a feeling you didn't read what I wrote. Oh well.
I would hope for a moment you could come down from your high horse and see that we might actually agree on a few things? I've always said I like Obama, but I'm voting for Hillary in the primary because I think she's the only candidate who's truly dedicated to bring healthcare to every American. Also, she's the first viable female candidate to run for President and that's good for all the little girls in my family(and in America) Funny I feel the need to keep explaining myself on that? I'm not sure where the venom comes from?
May 2, '08
Katy said: "...she's the only candidate who's truly dedicated to bring healthcare to every American."
She's truly dedicated to bringing corporate health insurance to every American who can afford to pay for it. Nader is the only candidate who's in favor of a single payer Canadian-style national health-care system
2:34 a.m.
May 3, '08
Cindy, You don't have to be African or black to be a scholar of Africa -- my ancestors are mainly Scottish, German and Swedish. It's just something I got interested in enough to try to make it my career.
I've taken a look at the things you asked us to Google and I'm not too impressed. Most of the links are by extreme right-wing sources and are not reliable in the least. Harry's right about Rashid Khalidi.
It bothers me that Hillary people take their talking points from the most extreme of Republicans.
2:44 a.m.
May 3, '08
Larry Sinclair turns out to be an old-news ludicrous smear.
It is really pathetic that some of Hillary's people feel the need to spread this kind of stuff. Though the link above suggests that Ron Paul was behind the smear to begin with, so I suppose it could be Paul nuts trying to stir the Democratic pot.
May 11, '08
Clinton up to the challenge of fighting for dreams, the future May 11, 2008 Sen. Hillary Clinton
http://www.wvgazette.com/Opinion/Op-EdCommentaries/200805100334
I was raised to believe in the promise of America. My grandfather was a factory worker, and my father served in the Navy and started a small business. My mother had a difficult childhood, but provided a loving home for our family and while she never got to attend college, she was determined that her children would. I have had every opportunity in life because of their hard work and sacrifice.
I was raised to believe in the promise of America. My grandfather was a factory worker, and my father served in the Navy and started a small business. My mother had a difficult childhood, but provided a loving home for our family and while she never got to attend college, she was determined that her children would. I have had every opportunity in life because of their hard work and sacrifice.
I carry with me not just their dreams, but the dreams of people like them all across our country: people who embrace hard work and opportunity, who never waver in the face of adversity, and who work day and night to make a better life for your children.
For the past seven years, I know so many of you have felt invisible to our president - holding your breath at the gas pump and the grocery checkout line; wondering what you'll do when health insurance disappears when a job does; seeing your loved ones who served our country in war ill-served when they return home.
I am running for president to stand for you and fight for your dreams and your future. I am running to give every child and every family the same opportunities and blessings that I had.
With two wars abroad and an economic crisis here at home, the stakes are higher than ever before. We need a president who knows how to make this economy work for middle-class families again and who is ready on day one to be commander in chief and keep our families safe. If you give me the chance, I will be that president.
We've heard more than enough speeches and we're looking for more than promises. It's not enough to just say you're going to solve our problems; you have to know what it takes and have what it takes to deliver solutions. And you have to get the job done. That is exactly what I'll do as president.
I'll deliver solutions to create good jobs. Jobs rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, 21st-century manufacturing jobs, jobs in new clean-energy industries.
I'll deliver solutions to provide relief from high gas prices and end our dependence on foreign oil. I'm the only candidate who will provide commuters, truckers, business owners and families relief at the pump by making the big oil companies pay the gas tax instead of hardworking West Virginians.
I'll deliver affordable, quality health care for every American, no exceptions, no excuses. I'm the only candidate with a plan that won't leave anyone out. And I won't hesitate to stand up to the drug companies and the insurance companies; it's nothing I haven't done before.
I'll deliver solutions for our economy. I'll end $55 billion in special breaks for the corporate special interests and give middle-class families $100 billion in tax cuts to help pay for health care and college and save for retirement. I'll get tough on China for breaking trade rules and I'll only sign trade agreements that are good for our workers and our economy.
Finally, I'll end the war in Iraq and start bringing our troops home as quickly and responsibly as possible. And when our troops come home, we'll serve them with the same devotion that they served us.
Accomplishing all of this won't be easy. But if there is one thing you know about me, it's this: I don't back down from a challenge. I'll be there for you long after the speeches are over and the cameras are gone, and I will never stop listening to your voices and standing for your families.
<h1>We know the stakes in this election are high and the challenges great. But we also know the possibilities are endless with the right leadership. It is up to us to roll up our sleeves, start solving our toughest problems, and start delivering on the promise of this great nation that we love.</h1> <h1>Clinton is a candidate for the Democratic nomination for president.</h1>