You going to protest the 50+ years that the military's been in Korea, while you're at it?

Jenny,

Just a suggestion, but how about converting your anti McCain energy into pro [insert preferred candidate] efforts.

Jenny Greenleaf:

It's my birthday tomorrow, and I can't imagine a better way to spend it than telling John McCain that....

Bob T:

Do you have a job to go to?

Bob Tiernan

Max "You going to protest the 50+ years that the military's been in Korea, while you're at it?"

Why not as it is a farce, just like most of the USA's overseas bases. Our troops are nothing but a speedbump on the DMZ. Their equipment is worn out with no replacement parts due to the clusterf*ck in Iraq. The guards don't even get ammo for their weapons on a bridge they have to man 8 miles from the DMZ (Camp Garry Owen), and most Koreans want them gone anyway. This information comes from my nephew who was stationed there for 12 miserable months before he went to Afcrapistan for another 15 miserable months (his unit was extended).

A $713 billion defense budget seems a little excessive to me. 100 years in Iraq at $12 billion a month is $14,400,000,000 (yes that's trillions)

Bob T "Do you have a job to go to?" No, we're all just "Dirty F*cking Hippies" (TM Atrios).

Johnnyfree ride is just another warmonger in a long list of them, including many Democrats who also need to have their feet held to the fire.

Someone once asked me if I had learned anything from going to war so many times. My reply: Yes, I learned how to cry.
Joe Galloway

Max:

You going to protest the 50+ years that the military's been in Korea, while you're at it?

BOHICA:

Why not as it is a farce, just like most of the USA's overseas bases. Our troops are nothing but a speedbump on the DMZ.

Bob T:

Glad you seem to be making a difference between a base and operations. McCain's comment has been deliberately taken out of context, and he's being misquoted, for political purposes. Isn't that being dishonest? McCain never said that he'd want to fight for a hundred years in Iraq. He essentially said that he could support having troops stationed there. I don't want to misquote this and the rest of the comment, but he was referring to a presence like that along the North-South Korean border. That's a big difference. Why then are so many Democrats lying about this?

Oh, by the way, if the UN never did anything about North Korea's invasion in 1950, thus allowing South Korea to disappear as a nation, would you rationalize that the same way you did Kuwait, i.e. say, "Oh, it wasn't a real country anyway" ? Real nice.

Just stop lying about what McCain said, okay? You don't have to support a US base in Iraq, but tell your friends to stop saying that he said he supports any plan to fight there for a hundred years.

Bob Tiernan

What's even funnier is that they aren't splitting any of the money with the Oregon Republican Party.

heh Almost as funny as when Senator Clinton came out two years ago to raise money for herself until a number of us raised hell on KPOJ and with the party. Finally she caved and donated some chump change to DPO.

As Obama recently stated ...we don't do nuance well in politics. There are all sorts of issues to take McCain on about but I am uncomfortable with the " 100 Years in Iraq" approach. It clearly was taken out of context and I am tired of both parties taking the easy, simple spin. Lee's point about what that would be mean is a real and valid counterpoint but can't be slipped into a soundbyte. Let's be better than that. Let's ask our fellow citizens to set aside some time to think and interact with real discourse. While I admire the time and effort put forth by people protesting McCain's fundraiser, I am not sure how many votes it gets that weren't already ours to begin with. This fundraiser's tactics stink to high heaven and illustrate the "bs express vs. straight talk express" out of their playbook. Write letters to the editor ? Post on blogs ?

Lee, Good points all, thanks. Bob T, the minor difference between troops in Korea (which I don't really support but hear me out) and troops in Iraq is, troops in Korea have not been killing and torturing the citizens there since 'hostilities' ended, there was arguably a somewhat more legitimate reason to be there, the US did not build secret torture prisons, practice rendition, etc, and the country was rebuilt fairly quickly. We beat the shit out of Iraq, destroyed their infrastructure and economy and have not made any significant repairs or progress for peace in over five years. The lights, water roads, schools etc are still in ruins, all for a paltry $500 Billion - so far. I guess that's what happens when you fire the army & police but let them keep their weapons, and then keep killing their families, all for the crime of having a 'bad guy' for a leader. The Korean War was a horrible thing, it's a shame the Bushies and sadly their numerous Democratic accomplices never seemed to learn that or tried to avoid a single pitfall. What has JMcC said about his plans to end the suffering and hardship in Iraq and rebuild it to a free and peaceful society?

Just back. Pathetic turnout, had to have a permit and be herded into a "free speech zone." I did stand outside the yellow tape, as is my 1st Amendment right.

Jenny & Friends,

I hate to break it to you but Obama isn't going to "leave Iraq" even if he were to win a two term Presidency - no matter what he says.

Will you protest Obama when the troops remain in Iraq? Or will you will a few percent reduction in troops levels be defined as "leaving Iraq".

Also, the moment after Obama's inauguration the troops will magically no longer "killing and torturing the citizens there."

Just remember, "We support the troops"!

:)

I know. The difference, though, is that Hillary didn't raise money for other states' parties - especially not huge amounts.

Point taken.

Hey, is this the first time we've had "free speech zones" in Oregon? I was at the rove protest at wash sq and they just made us stay on the sidewalk, but we weren't herded into a zone. Anybody know?

And regarding raising money for McBush....what in the world was Gov Ted doing out there giving McSame a wonderful photo and footage? Nothing like adding to the phony maverick meme. What's next - Governor Ted offered an ambassadorship? Geez. As someone who has followed TK since I was at UO in the 70's, what a Big Disappointment he has been.

Hey -- Kulongoski was NOT at the fundraiser. He was at an nonpolitical renewable energy event at a company that he brought to Oregon. I wish he hadn't stood on stage with McCain either, but shouldn't renewable energy be a nonpartisan issue? (And to the extent that it IS a partisan issue - doesn't Kulongoski's appearance there hurt McCain with the right-wingers?)

Jenni "I believe the zones have been used before when Bush and Cheney were in town."

That may be true but does not make it right. We have certain rights that transcend the idea that our elected representatives are free to be sheltered from the public. I fired off an email to the Port's legal division this morning.

I don't know whether to be amused or outraged by conditions imposed on the demonstrators who came to the john McCain fund raiser on Monday, May 11th. While I can understand the need to regulate the "exercise of free speech" in the PDX terminal and its immediate surroundings as put forth in the Port's rules and regulations, I find it ludicrous that a sidewalk in front of the Sheraton hotel on Frontage Rd. would be subjected to the same permit process. Although the sidewalk may be Port property, it is in fact a public right of way. When I stepped away from the group of demonstrators to have a smoke as to not bother them, one of the Port Police stopped me and indicated that I could not be out of the "Free speech area" if I was carrying a sign. I told him I was just keeping some distance from the non-smokers and he was fine with that as long as I returned to the "Free speech area" when I was done. The Port is a public entity. The Commissioners are appointed by the Governor, a duly elected official of the State of Oregon and approved by the State Senate, my representatives in Salem. The Port is in fact a Regional Government. The Constitution of the State of Oregon is unequivocal in the matter of free speech: Section 8. Freedom of speech and press. No law shall be passed restraining the free expression of opinion, or restricting the right to speak, write, or print freely on any subject whatever; but every person shall be responsible for the abuse of this right.– This is is also the bedrock of the Bill of Rights as stated in the First amendment to the Constitution of the United States, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." If Congress "shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech" and the Oregon State Constitution states that "No Law shall be passed restraining the free expression of opinion, or restricting the right to speak...", I find it rather curious that the Port feels it can override the US Constitution and the Oregon State Constitution. In order to get to the demonstration I walked on a public sidewalk on 82nd Ave., crossed the the MAX tracks, Airport Way and Frontage Rd on a public crosswalk and did not see any sign indicating I was entering Port of Portland property or that I was restricted in any way. I would hold the opinion that since the sidewalk on Frontage Rd. is in fact a public right of way, it is not subject to any restriction in regards to my exercise of free speech as guaranteed under the Constitution of both the United States and the State of Oregon. Your consideration of this issue would be appreciated.

In June of 1967, I raised my right hand and swore to "...support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;" I still believe it is my duty to uphold that oath.

Lee Coleman:

This will be my second demonstration against John McCain at an airport hotel. Many years ago that wonderful moderate, JM, showed up as a keynote speaker at a fundraiser for the ultra right wing hate group, the Oregon Citizens Alliance [RIP]. We had some fun baiting all the self-important Republicans who drove into the parking lot -- I wonder if Bob Tiernan remembers it.

Bob T:

I don't know why I should. I wasn't there, and wouldn't have gone under any circumstances.

Bob Tiernan

Lee Colman:

Bob, you know as well as anyone that stationing troops in an insurgent-ridden hellhole with aggressive religion-driven neighbors in Iran and Syria means that those troops will be targets for as long as they're there.

Bob T:

That doesn't describe the circumstances McCain meant. Why do you add your own modifiers and qualifiers?

Lee Colman:

Of course he never said he'd want to fight but he, and I, and you know that if they're there, they're going to have to fight and die. That's what McCain really was saying when he said being there for 100 years "would be fine with me."

Bob T:

Oh, so that's what he was really saying! Well, at least you've admitted that he hasn't been quoted properly since he made the comment. Using the context your prefer helps in fundraising -- even Repubs do that. We all understand that.

Bob Tiernan

Jenni:

I believe the zones have been used before when Bush and Cheney were in town.

BOHICA:

That may be true but does not make it right.

Bob T:

You are correct, but weren't these so-called Free Speech Zones an idea of Erik Sten?

BOHICA:

We have certain rights that transcend the idea that our elected representatives are free to be sheltered from the public.

Bob T:

That's true, too, but I'm not sure if it protects some examples that go beyond heckling people in the parking lot. For example, Dan Quayle came to Portland c.1990 for a fundraising dinner ($25 a plate, which is a record low for a sitting VP which will probably stand for a couple of centuries) at the Hilton. A crowd of protesters felt that they had the right to burst into the dining hall and were attempting to ram open the lobby doors. I don't know about you, but I don't believe that anyone has a right to burst into such an event any more than opponents of Obama have a right to barge into his own fundraising dinner to shout him down and essentially stop the event in its tracks.

Same goes for speakers at colleges who get shouted down do they can't speak at all. My form of exercising free speech in that setting would be to make my point during Q&A.

Bob Tiernan

Bob T:

You are correct, but weren't these so-called Free Speech Zones an idea of Erik Sten?

Your point being that Sten is an idiot? I'll concede that point. However I think they are in place all over the country.

Bob T:

That's true, too, but I'm not sure if it protects some examples that go beyond heckling people in the parking lot.

Apples and oranges. My point was a public sidewalk, not private property. If it is a public event (not a private fund raiser) I have no problem with some type of demonstration which makes a point and those making the point accept the consequences, e.g. getting removed or arrested.

After all as T.J. said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism".

BOHICA - Do you often use Urban Legends to make a point?

http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2005/02/15/misattributed-dissent-is-the-highest-form-of-patriotism.htm

UL

BFD, the sentiment still is true.

I guess the Declaration of Independence had nothing to do with dissent.

BOHICA,

Yes, the DofI was partly about dissent, not patriotism. Your statement both misrepresented TJ and patriotism "in it's highest form", of course.

The DofI was mostly about stating that human rights do not come from a King or Government, but rather from our Creator and thus a King or Government can neither create rights or take them away - only (wrongly) not allow a person to exercise that right(s).

You should really watch the second espisode of the HBO series John Adams. The debate within the Continental Congress about the DofI is very enlightening and parallel's the political debate we are hearing today.

We need more politicians and lawyers like John Adams who worked the land as a farmer and got his hands dirty trying to make a crop grow by himself. Gives one a perspective lacking in the politician's we hear today. John Adams would no more ask a government to help him with his farm, raise/educate his family, provide him a doctor, or motiviate him with "hope", than he'd ask King George to send more troops to Boston.

Our political parties have lost perspective what America is really about.

Bob T:

You are correct, but weren't these so-called Free Speech Zones an idea of Erik Sten?

BOHICA:

Your point being that Sten is an idiot?

Bob T:

I knew that before he supported these. Why was this twit was so popular among progressives is quite odd.

BOHICA:

I'll concede that point. However I think they are in place all over the country.

Bob T:

Yes, and they indicate a serious problem. Leave it to politicians to think we need them.

Bob Tiernan