I have never been one to fixate on numbers, but... ....I wonder if mom and dad of #4,000 feel any better or worse than say, the mom and dads of #3,999 or #4,001? or #1,000 or #2,000 or #3,000?

Or the moms and dads of the service people killed in non combat situations in the US, Germany or Japan?

In my darkest moments, I think we're lost. I mean, all of this killing, all of this money wasted, all of this anguish. . . and the majority of the conservative leaders of the country, including the Republican nominee for President, say "please, Sir, may I have another?".

Whatever moral capital this country had is now squandered, lying dead in the sands of Iraq along with the bodies of American soldiers and Iraqi children.

I want my country back.

Speaking from experience no parent thinks seriously about the possibility of the death of a child until it actually happens. As a country we're all in a state of denial, pretending we're not being hurt, that our nation is not being terribly damaged, by the death of someone else's child. Politically it's hard to speak to this and the reality without understanding it as tragedy wrought by error and deception. Will we choose leadership who can lead us through it to the other side of tragedy, or someone who reinforces the denial and talks about "peace with honor"? Has John McCain ever acknowledged that Vietnam was tragedy and his own captivity and tragedy was tragedy? How to redeem such terrible loss and suffering and find a way to make meaning of it? That is the dilemma for this country.

Politically it makes sense to tie the war to the imploding economy, and that is correct because of the terrible financial cost and debt. Yet that too is a denial of the enormity of it. Polling says 69% want us out of Iraq in a year. So why would the country elect a man who wants us there for 100 years with permanent war and permanent bases? Why would such a candidate even have a chance? Does anyone even know or pay attention that "Iraq forever" is McCain's mantra? We have to hang that around his neck in bold letters.

If we never fought another war, then nobody would die?

As Madeleine Albright noted, what good is the strongest military in the world if you're afraid to use it?

U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths 1980-2006 see page 10 for the below list

1980 .... 2,392 1981 .... 2,380 1982 .... 2,319 1983 .... 2,465 1984 .... 1,999 1985 .... 2,252 1986 .... 1,984 1987 .... 1,983 1988 .... 1,819 1989 .... 1,636 1990 .... 1,507 1991 .... 1,787 1992 .... 1,293 1993 .... 1,213 1994 .... 1,075 1995 .... 1,040 1996 ...... 974 1997 ...... 817 1998 ...... 827 1999 ...... 796 2000 ...... 758 2001 ...... 891 2002 ...... 999 2003 .... 1,228 2004 .... 1,874 2005 .... 1,942 2006 .... 1,858

My heart breaks. Hearing that others have died in other years does not lessen the pain of the 4000 we've lost in Iraq.

Kari,

The statistics that challenge your assumptions are silly? All active duty military deaths, "including folks who died in car crashes, from regular sickness, etc." doesn't sound at all silly to me. Does the kid who drowned in the swimming pool at Navy Seal training deserve less respect than a Marine who dies on the streets of Fallujah?

That's the whole point, Kari. Life is not without risk: some perfectly healthy 19-25 year olds died this weekend because they drove drunk or committed suicide. Many 30 to 40 year olds will die of lifestyle related heart attack and strokes (despite their youth), while a Border Patrol agent might roll his SUV into a river and drown. Does that mean we should eliminate butter fat, refined sugars, and the Border Patrol? People are dying out there!

The media is going to be pounding the table on "4,000 dead" for the next few weeks, but the statistic is meaningless without context.

Here's the context: if we continue to train men and women in the instruments of war, some of them will die.

If we deploy our military to a hostile theater, they will die at roughly twice the rate they normally do (while simply training).

If you want to eliminate military fatalities, you can't just end the war, you have to end military service. Conversely, if you're only prepared to endure non-combat related fatalities, then you need to plan on big increases in defense spending: all those unmanned drones and robotic weapon systems come with a high price tag.

Anybody who believes this war was fought in preparation for Armageddon or personal enrichment is unlikely to be persuaded by reason.

A final piece of advice: lay off the refined sugars and carbs and walk 4 miles per day if you want to improve mortality rates where it matters most. I'm sure Mother Hillary or Saint Obama will heal the dead once they're elected.

I'm a Soldier in the U.S. Army and when I heard news of the 4000 death mark I became sick to my stomach. I'm lucky enough to have been to Iraq and return home to my family but so many of my fellow Soldiers have not been as fortunate. And in my heart i feel like every one of those 4000 deaths our president is to be blamed for.

I've opened up a discussion on my blog so I can talk to people and answer their questions and hopefully make people understand that not all military are supporting this war and that every one of those deaths was important and unneeded. I'd like it you'd stop by and toss in your two cents.

I'm all for defending my country but U.S. did not need to be defended from Iraq.

Johnson: Would you look at how fast they put the names of all our guys who got killed? The Sergeant: That's a World War One memorial. Johnson: But the names are the same. The Sergeant: They always are. - The Big Red One

There will be a candle light vigil at Jamison Square Park (Pearl District), 7Pm. As in the past it will be the day after the paper of record, The Oregonian, prints the news, so I need to check the morning fish wrap. If it is in today's, the vigil will be Tuesday.

Mike Belgrove/Belgrave: looked near and far and couldn't find "your blog". Your link to "Highbrid Nation" only has your name (which I believe to be fictitious) next to the famous photo of flag draped coffins on a plane.

Highbrid Nation is a blog/news lifestyle website covering many topics including music, technology, video games, fashion and sports. The goal is to present interesting information that is either overlooked or too niche for mainstream websites.

Highbrid Nation started as a regular newsletter for the record label Highbrid Entertainment. At first the newsletter only covered updates on the label itself but over time grew to include news and information about the music industry as a whole. Now the concept has evolved futher into its own website covering music as well as a broad array of other topics while at the same time maintaining Highbrid’s “underground” style.

Please post your blog's URL or I'll assume your a troll who doesn't really serve in the military.

MoonBat said: "Anybody who believes this war was fought in preparation for Armageddon or personal enrichment is unlikely to be persuaded by reason."

I say: Anybody who believes this war wasn't fought in preparation for Armageddon or personal enrichment is delusional and MoonBat a fitting name.

Full Disclosure: Retired military, 27 years.

Skeptical Reader,

Just click on

Marcus "Dos Un" Holmes has blogged 2117 posts.

under the post and you will find his blog entries.

Wasn't that easy?

So is his name "Marcus Holmes" or "Mike Belgrove" and what leads you to believe he is actually in the Army?

Why shouldn't I believe he is actually in the Army, because he doesn't parrot the Bush talking points and therefore must be an unpatriotic, dirty fucking hippie (TM Atrios)?

Full disclosure; US Army RA18960500 1967-1970 Bien Hoa RVN 68-69 I don't wear a flag pin, fly the flag, pledge allegiance to the wall (never will, its un-American) or salute the flag and will not until the USA abides by the Constitution.

On the subject of why this war was fought, Why?

The US military death toll in Iraq now exceeds by about 1000 the total number of lives lost in the 911 attacks. The financial cost of the war exceeds 911.

The war was supposedly started to keep terrorists from coming over here again.

The Iraq war disaster has become worse than 911.

General and president Eisenhower said it so well before he left office "beware of the American military complex"..and president's who declare war without their own knowledge of the carnage of what war causes..Bush Jr never served in a theatre of war so what better choice for corporations (who make money on war) to elect.? A brain dead, empty suit, waste of payroll type of guy who's own thoughts of greatness far outweigh his thoughts of what disasters he has caused this country. Afetr 9/11 when the world was on our side to rid civilization of terror, he George Bush squandered the Good Will for an un necessary WAR in Iraq purely for GREED AND POWER..Build your Library George and the greedy Corporations will come like flies to repay you..BUT the people who represent the SOUL of America, the average guy who always lays their life on the line for their Country because they know no better, will see your library as a reminder of what America IS NOT..

"As Madeleine Albright noted, what good is the strongest military in the world if you're afraid to use it?"

A more relevant question would be "what good is the strongest military in the world if we are not afraid to use it?"

Answer: It will always be more bad than good. It will always lead to unnecessary death and destruction, denial of political and economic and all other kind of rights. It will always damage and impoverish those who pay for it through taxes and their own service, voluntary or not. It will always cause ruined lives through the waste of resources. The world's strongest military is a moral abomination. It is an instrument of oppression of humanity and the planet in the service of a few who profit from it's provision and it's true purposes.

The world's strongest military must be defunded and dismantled. It needs to be replaced by a true defense force that lacks the capability of being subverted for imperialistic ends. Until then this nation lives under a curse.

The war, authorized by a cowardly Congress and waged by a criminal and his henchmen (and women), took away their chance at the American Dream, in the name of patriotism but really for power and profit.

And two of the accomplices in this war are running for president with the support of more than half of the electorate, aided and abetted by the apathy of others. Now is this a great country, or what? And those 4,000 soldiers and the 20,000-plus wounded put their lives at risk for people like that?

attempting to close tag

test

re: "At least 90,000 dead Iraqi civilians...I haven't the heart to do more research...But the number that will grab the attention of Americans: 4,000 of our own dead."

If you're not willing to do the research, then at least don't repeat the lies of the britneystream media. Even your estimate of U.S. dead is wrong, since it doesn't include the contractors. The highly regarded British polling agency, Oxford Research Bureau, has recently updated its estimate of Iraqi deaths to 1.3 million. That’s excluding two of the most violent provinces, Karbala and Anbar. The Lancet Study estimate from several years ago was far greater than your estimate is now.

If the American people knew the truth about how many innocent people we have slaughtered, tortured, and ethnically cleansed, then maybe we could produce presidential candidates who represent our values.

On the other side of the picture are people like Lt. Ehren Watada who recognized that this war was illegal and that his oath to defend the Constitution precluded him from going to war in Iraq. He was willing to fight in Afghanistan. He stood up to the Army at great personal risk and so far has survived a kangaroo court which refused to allow the legality (or illegality) of the war to be discussed. More at Courage to Resist.

Perhaps, what we need to do is teach young people the history of the two world wars and the Nuremberg trials so that they will know that they not only don't have to fight in illegal wars but they also have the obligation to refuse to do so. However, outside of Berkeley, CA and a few other places, there are probably very few school boards that would allow such heresy to be taught in their high schools.

False patriotism has always been strong in this nation. Schools are attacked by super-nationalists whenever they begin to offer a balanced view of history or public affairs. Like most religions, militarism will not tolerate rational consideration in its presence.

.How many millions did Saddam kill (Iraqis, Kuwaitis, and Iranians?

How many more would he have killed if we had allowed him to stay in power?

How many millions did Saddam kill (Iraqis, Kuwaitis, and Iranians?

How many more would he have killed if we had allowed him to stay in power?

How often will we have to read these nonsensical interpretations? The crimes committed by Saddam Hussein do not justify our criminal conduct. Recent polls in Iraq indicate many people consider their current existence to be worse than under the previous regime, and that is easy to understand if the mainstream media are not your only sources of information.

Lives wasted, dreams dashed, families forever captive to injury inflicted. These are the human costs resulting from a war driven by false fears. The collapse of our economy and the perception of arrogant nation building in the international community are also very costly results from George's folly. His intent was to secure his favorite resource and have the occupied country re-pay loans originally anticipated to re-pay those tax dollars poured into the occupation. Oops, guess it didn't work out that way. Democratize em, thats the ticket. Good fall back position. The surge - mission accomplished. All the insurgents spread to Syria and Afghanistan. Duh. They may be zealots but they're not stupid. So now we demand our NATO allys bolster the Afghan effort. (Cheney puts the dip in diplomacy) But Iraq's more secure. For now. Honor the innocent who died to protect us. They are heros. Hold accountable those who put them in harms way.

A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE GETS IRAQ RIGHT http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters/?pid=301960

A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE GETS IRAQ RIGHT http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters/?pid=301960

Good link, Read It. Thanks for posting it.

Lastnight Frontline just had a really great special about all the backroom dealings that happened in the years leading up to the war. Most of you probably realize a lot of this stuff, but it really needs to be reiterated! The CIA and the state department (collin powell + rice) were fighting the bush administration the whole way about going into iraq, and were completely denying all the fabricated WMD claims the bush administration came up with. So the pentagon created it's own intelligence department in order to make a case of Saddam - Al Qaeda ties and non-existent WMD since the CIA wasn't willing to lie for them. They were going to iraq regardless of what any intelligence found.

Please spread the word: Frontline: Bush's War

Here's a live link to Read It's post:

antioccupationcandidate

re: "How many millions did Saddam kill (Iraqis, Kuwaitis, and Iranians?"

Who armed him and supported him? How many millions have died because of that nation-state's policies of empire inside and outside of Iraq?

re: "Like most religions, militarism will not tolerate rational consideration in its presence."

Tom C.'s point is central not only to support for occupation in Iraq, but to the religious zeal with which Democrats support militarist candidates.

re: "Honor the innocent who died to protect us. They are heros."

This is part of the militarism as religion dogma. Those who committed crimes against humanity are not heroes, and they have not protected us. They may well be victims, but they are not heroes, just as John McCain is not a hero for having attacked Viet Nam. If we want to stop the carnage, we must stop this insidious, insane meme.

The CIA and the state department (collin (sic) powell + rice) were fighting the bush administration the whole way about going into iraq, and were completely denying all the fabricated WMD claims the bush administration came up with.

This needs to be clarified. According to Frontline Rice was an ally with Powell, but according to the Sunday talks shows for those of us who remember, Rice quickly got in line with the warmongers and promoted the "smoking gun" scenario. She was, and still is, out of her league.

The Nation article endorsing Nader (above) is a good one, but another article endorsing Obama should also be considered. There are two sides to this issue. Both are worthy of consideration - and respect.

re: article endorsing Obama in the Nation.

"Progressives should support Obama's sixteen-month combat troop withdrawal plan in comparison to Clinton's open-ended one, and demand that both candidates avoid a slide into four more years of low-visibility counterinsurgency."

What is the definition of "combat troops"? It's disappointing that Tom Hayden, who I once respected, is serving up this obfuscatory nonsense. "All personnel home starting now and all bases closed" is a progressive position, and Kucinich and Nader have taken that position for years.

The fact that the authors added that progressives should "...demand that both candidates avoid a slide into four more years of low-visibility counterinsurgency" is a realistic assessment of the most probable outcome of voting for either of these candidates.

It's a long way to Chicago 1968.

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