This is hardly news or a new phenomenon. Our oldest daughter, now 40, attended George Smith School in 1972. Her kindergarten class -- half day -- was 27. We were shocked. We complained then and before our daughter reached 4th grade, we moved to the Tigard school district where classes were much smaller (I'm sure they're not now, but I can guarantee they aren't anywhere near the size of PDX schools). Our second daughter started in Tigard and remained through middle school. Due to marital issues, my ex-wife remained in Tigard, but my middle daughter wanted to move in with my second wife and I. We, unfortunately, were back in Portland. After numerous scuffles with Wilson High back in the 80's, we finally moved her into PCC's High School Completion Program (Highly recommended for motivated students). She graduated a year early with 30 college credits under her belt. She remained on schedule and graduated from UO in 2000. Our youngest daughter never saw the light of a public school from K to grade 8. We had her at OES, where kindergarten was 15 and no elementary class was larger than 16. Middle school had different classes and the largest class was 19. Now she's back at a public high school - Riverdale - which has no class size larger than 18, some as small as 10. Of course we pay tuition as out of district parents, but it is less than half of OES for a school with (for what its worth) the highest test scores in the State. She loves it. We love it. All in all - a great match.

Note: we now live in Lake Oswego. For those who don't, LO schools will now accept out of district transfers for a relatively low tuition - $6500 at high school level. They will also accept the money from another district if the district is willing.

The situation is worse that Wendy and Leslie describe. My children are at a school with one of the healthiest PTA budgets in the City. My son's kindergarten two years ago had 26; first grade had 28; second grade has 28.

We have music only because parents pay through PTA. We have art only because parents pay through PTA.

I can only imagine what schools in less well-off areas of the City contend with.

What remains so shocking to me is the comparison to Durham, NC, where we moved from. Lots of poverty, lots of racial divisions, but elementary classes had about 22 students and two teachers in every classroom (a teacher and a teacher's aide).

It is getting close to 4 decades since I student taught in kindergarten in California. The college town had a school system which was integrated into the college's education program. Some experienced teachers had a student teacher every semester. This was before the days of teacher aides/ inst. assistants. Half day kindergarten with 30 kids in each half. On the last day of school, all the students came in the morning--60 kids, one teacher, 2 student teachers or 3 adults and 60 kids. It had been that way for many years. I sometimes wonder what happened when that excellent master teacher retired.

I long suspected the student teachers were like having extra adults in the classroom. My class was 2/3 boys, which is why I always advocated for male primary teachers.

When people talk about school funding, too many talk in grandiose terms about "the public schools" as if they are a single celled organism or something.

Such people should be required to spend a day helping out in a large primary classroom (K-3) and then see if their point of view changes.

I've completely removed from the US educational system. My son is in a class of 14 taught by two certified teachers. He's at the French American International School, where the French Ministry of Education administrates his education. If his eductional development is anything like his sister's, he will be fluent in French by age 11 and will have attended school for three weeks in Paris as an echange student.

The class size doesn't bother me much but the lack of content does. My 5 year old is in kindergarten and they mostly just play games. We provide her with books to read at home as well as math puzzles so she at least gets some sort of education. I really haven't seen any difference so far between kindergarten and day care.

The situation is worse that Wendy and Leslie describe. My children are at a school with one of the healthiest PTA budgets in the City. My son's kindergarten two years ago had 26

At Sabin last year, my youngest son had about 24 classmates. There was a lot of parent involvement, plenty of field trips, a terrific arts program, and he had one of the best kindergarten teachers around...

This year Sabin hired a gym teacher, and a school counselor. I'm a volunteer "room parent," and active in the PTA. Teachers work hard, and our kids benefit. And it's good to show up, help out, and see for yourself what's really going on.

Smaller classes are great - but 26 kids?
If you think that's a crisis, get involved.

(And Abernathy - I just wish we had your food service!)

So, let me get this straight--PPS is closing schools and converting others to K-8 because of declining student enrollment, but at the same time class sizes for K have swollen to twice the target size of 15 per class?

I live in a PPS neighborhood and the number of kids on my block & surrounding blocks is obviously growing. From what I heard, part of the problem this year at Abernathy was a high number of "walk-ins," parents who showed up on the first day of school to enroll children the district hadn't expected. It may be that part of the problem with resources is in accurately counting the number of students, especially at K--I haven't seen numbers that high for other elementary grades (though they are also way too crowded throughout the metro area and surrounding communities.)

We just need to get class sizes down for early grades.

But how many kindergarten classes does Abernathy have? If you hired another teacher, would you end up with very small classes - enviously small, like 12 - 15?

And does Abernathy provide teachers of larger classes with any assistance? Are there aides, or student teachers? Room parents or other volunteers?

And does Abernathy have an art teacher, or music teacher, or gym teacher, where students go during the day, which gives your hardworking kindergarten teachers a much-deserved break?

Would hiring an extra kindergarten teacher, to reduce class size to 12 - 15, mean that an art, music, or gym teacher might have to reduce their hours or go?

I mean, I'd love smaller classes, too, but kids are pretty resilient, and the state is pretty cheap.

And I think I read that only about 15% of Portland households even have kids, and some of those, apparently, will only consider expensive private options for their brilliant progeny to learn, say, in French..!

So I think, my kids are in school - how can I make this situation better right now? Check out your PTA, talk to your kid's teacher, volunteer, and find out...

I'm a parent of a kindergartener at Abernethy. I agree that Abernethy has some great things going on. But overcrowding is an issue that is not helped by good hot lunch.

As Leslie and Wendy stated, kindergarten is the foundation of a child's school experience. Let's make it good! I realize that we're not going to get that additional teacher for the half-day kids this year, and that we parents will gladly volunteer our time. My concern is what to do to make certain we're not having this same conversation next fall regarding new kindergarteners and our first graders.

If the Chalkboard Project found 15 students to be the optimal class size for kindergarten, then it seems logical for the district to start making changes, to move forward with that ultimate goal in mind. Community support is what drives change, positive change for the lives of our childern. Just because large class sizes aren't a new phenomenon, doesn't mean it isn't news worthy or make it right. We've put up with the statis quo long enough. Let's all work together and support a cause thats time is long over due. Concerned Abernethy parent, Cheri Trettin

I completely agree with the poster of this blog. Class sizes are too large at many schools, and while it is encouraging that our enrollment is starting to recover from its seventeen-year downturn, the funding, unfortunately, is not.

But the ire toward PPS is misplaced. The state is not adequately funding education. It's that simple. The district is doing what it can to support these kindergarten classes, and in the schools with the largest increases in kindergarten enrollment, the district has added new teachers. But it does not have the funding to make all the changes that need to be made.

As for Lake Oswego or Riverdale, those districts are moving in entirely the wrong direction. Charging tuition for public education is absolutely the worst way to recover the funding gap. Tuition is $6500/year for HS in LO. It's more than twice that at Riverdale High. This is exactly the trend the Bush administration would love for us to go in. The wealthy get great education, the poor get lousy education.

What we need is solid state funding, the funding we lost through Measure 5. But I've yet to see a ballot measure that would reverse it.

Oregon Bill,

I didn't respond the first time you wrote about volunteers, but now you've said it twice, so I figure it's fair game.

I hope I understand your comment: volunteering is the best way to help ameliorate classroom overcrowding NOW.

But I hope you also agree that relying on classroom volunteers to deal with perpetual underfunding of schools is not a long term solution.

It is unfair to parents from communities that do not have the luxury of having one parent not working. Schools should not have to rely on untrained parent volunteers as a substitute for trained educators.

I have a much more modest goal than 15/kindergarten. I'd be happy with 22 in KGarten and my kids' high school IB classes below 35.

The time spent in Kindergarten should NOT be wasted with a half day of "let's play games and sing songs" and no responsibility placed on the child to produce work.

When we visited the local elementary PPS during "roundup" and realized the utterly low expectations the teacher had for the year, our 5 year old grandaughter was registered in a private school two days later. I suspect that's where she will be every year for some time to come.

And yes......after 4 weeks she is able to clearly write the name of every family member, aunts, uncles, and her two pets. If her writing gets sloppy her teacher (a licensed educator with a Masters in Ed) holds her feet to the fire and expects immediate improvement.

There is also a competitive environment instilled into the classroom...nothing too serious but the kids know they are being judged against each other's efforts. That peer pressure is healthy. My granddaughter arrives everyday with enthusiasm and leaves each day with a smile.

18 kids, full day kindergarten, with a great teacher, and a quality school. A great start to her education!

All for around $3600. I can miss a vacation and a few nights out a monthfor that!

I hope I understand your comment: volunteering is the best way to help ameliorate classroom overcrowding NOW.

But I hope you also agree that relying on classroom volunteers to deal with perpetual underfunding of schools is not a long term solution.

Of course it would be awesome to have more state and local money for classroom teachers, and offer smaller class sizes. But I agree with the poster who suggests that quality instruction matters more than class size, at least within a reasonable range. A class size of 26 (especially with occasional volunteers and aides, and some combination of music, art and PE) is not a crisis.

It is unfair to parents from communities that do not have the luxury of having one parent not working.

Oh I love this comment.

The progressive liberal, probably from a wealthy, NE Portland neighborhood, with "one of the healthiest PTA budgets in the City," is actually worried less about the 26 kids in his son's class than those kids in other schools where he thinks nobody is able to volunteer.

Even a few full time working parents find time - and ways - to contribute. A friend who works nights at Joe's helped teach an afterschool science class last spring, and runs a homework club this term. My spouse and I both work and volunteer, too.

And until Oregonians are willing to pay more to fund public education, this kind of community effort can make a real difference - particularly for a class of only 26.

Yikes, that comment should have read: I'm in the school every day and volunteer 8-10 hours a MONTH. I'm not that good...

But that's GREAT. Public school is a public, community effort. I'll never forget hearing former School Board member Derry Jackson telling an audience at Reflections Bookshop that "once your children turn 5, you turn them over to PPS and it's THEIR responsibility to educate, not yours!" He was wrong. You gotta pitch in, too.

I'm a parent of a Kindergarden at Abernethy & I have a couple of thoughts here:

1. The bureaucracy of PPS and funding of Oregon schools is too overwhelming to me - a working parent just trying to remember who I have to pick up where and when. I agree strongly that the large class sizes are a problem - not just in Kindergarden either, throughout the grades. I heard there's a 3rd grade class at Sunnyside with 35. All I can think to do in the short term is volunteer in the classroom when I can and hope other parents do the same. Though I am not a trained educator and wonder how effective I can really be. I am already worried about what my daughter's 1st grade classroom is going to look like. I'm sorry, but our principal's answer that they sit in desks in 1st grade so huge classes aren't as big a problem - did not resonate with me. As the kids get older and into heavier academic material, can classroom volunteers really make up for the high student-teacher ratios?

2. Even if I had the money to send my child to private school (I don't), I would do some real soul-searching before I did. Strong neighborhood schools make strong communities. The more neighbors know my kids, the better. It takes a village & Lake Oswego is not my village. I am determined to work with what we have to try to make it better. I have to admit it felt pretty lousy though that they closed our neighborhood school (Edwards) b/c it was "too small" then stuffed us into a bloated classroom at Abernethy. But I digress.

I always find school discussions interesting. First, on class sizes, I grew up in a mix of public and private schools and never was I in a class of under 28 kids--and I went to school in a nice area and have so far made it well into my 40's. The problem seems to be that Oregonians can't get the big pictures. Our much loved initiative system has brought many of the problems we have today, including class sizes. We are slowly digging ourselves out of the mess created by Measure 5 (all remember that, b/c it was the progressive people of PDX that gave us that one) The reason there is no control over our school budget is b/c we gave it to Salem.

And while we are able to slowly make our way forward, it is only a matter of time before we go the other direction--that's b/c we have a funding system that is broken. It would be nice if people could take the time to figure that out while we are in a positive period, but I suggest that people don't like to think that far ahead.

Did I not drive by Abernathy Elementary on Saturday and see a big sign for kindergarten sign up? Seems strange given the above comments, unless they are about to hire another K teacher. Oregon's education standards have declined so much its embarrassing when I talk to friends & relatives from across the country. Thankfully we have some teachers and lots of new parents who care and are trying to make things better.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I went to kindergarten in 1970 and there were 32 in my class. It was mostly playtime with 20 minutes to read books. Maybe that worked for a lot of the kids, but not for me. I think every parent has to evaluate the program their child is in based on the needs of their child. My parent's response was to pull me out of kindergarten. I was already reading at 2nd grade level and doing 1st grade math, so kindergarten was rather pointless for me.

I do think that the education system today places not enough emphasis on civics, history, and science. And there are not nearly enough languages and arts (music--choral or band, art, drama, creative writing, etc). It's a shame.

I have to chime in and echo many of the remarks made here today. I live in the Abernathy School neighborhood and now that they've closed Edwards, it's the one I plan to send my son to when he reaches kindergarten age in another three years. Will PPS have their act together by then? Will the state have in place stable and effective post M5 funding for its schools? I'd like to hope so. What's more important for competing in a global economy than providing quality education for our children?

But to say I'm hopeful is, well, a lie. Could we give up some luxuries and send him to private school? Sure. But I'm with Melissa in that I believe in public neighborhood schools and the role they play in bringing up our children. So I worry.

This should be a front and center issue for progressives. When I hear people here advocating for private schools it makes me sad.

My 1975 Lee kindergarten class had 32 the day we took photos and 35 by the Christmas pageant! I also note that the Portland Association of Teachers consistently advocated for higher class sizes throughout the recent budget crunching period, so there seems to be a disconnect.

We all seem to have some wide-ranging ideas on what public education should be, what Kindergartners should be taught, etc. We all seem to agree, though, that education in this state is inadequate and underfunded.

I'd really like to see the energy from this and the other discussions throughout the city about this issue turn into a movement towards a new ballot measure that will reverse the effects of Measure 5.

Perhaps to a lot of people our funding situation doesn't seem so bad because we've gotten used to hearing about it for so long. Perhaps it doesn't seem so bad because it pales in comparison to the 12.8% reduction PPS' budget took in 1993 (which it has not recovered). Perhaps we've gotten used to the revolving door PPS' last several leaders have walked through since its last great superintendent, Matthew Prophet, retired (although I have a lot of faith in our new superintendent).

The work described in the comments above, the volunteer work, the PTA work, the fundraising, and so on, should not be overlooked; it is important, and it is helping. But the permanent solution is to remove the cap on property taxes imposed by Measure 5.

This is a timely post - I met this morning with parents from my daughter's kinder class. Class size was among the things discussed. I have many thoughts about this subject.

My daughter attends Beach and the Spanish Immersion program. There are 25 kids in the class but the state only reimburses the district for 12 1/2 students. That is the first problem - schools are strongly encouraged to provide full day kinder but then it is not funded as full day. That drives up class size and takes money from other things in the school.

There are a lot of great volunteers - I myself spend around 4 hours a week in the school and countless other hours fundraising and other activities. There is one parent who is in the school everyday. I asked her what she would fund first and her answer was teachers' aides. The teachers really need help. When I am there I spend little time in the class and a lot of time at the copy machine. While not thrilling it is what needs to be done and if my four hours of copying means that the teacher can work on lesson plans or recharge his batteries to be a better teacher then I am happy to do it.

My daughter's class is really lucky that there is a grandmother that comes in everyday at 1 pm to help with snack. I do not know how the teacher would do it without her and not take away from instruction time.

I know parents of all income levels that come into the school. Friends who have taught at wealthier schools have actually found that they often have more parental support when they switch to a more economically diverse school. One has told me she also feels more appreciated. I do think the difference is not the amount of parent involvement but the amount of cash they can raise. In the wealthier schools the PTA can fund FTE's and a few can make a big difference.

For those of you with kids in private school that is your choice. My daughter will be bilingual just like the kid in the French school. We could afford to send our kids to a private school. Instead we have decided that I would work part time for pay and volunteer as much as possible. When I am at the school we actually pay someone to take care of our youngest. When she is in school I will be there more. We also kick in extra money for field trips, etc. We know that this not only benefits our kids but others also - it just fits with our values. We also feel fortunate to be able to do this.

In the last few months the New York Times published an article about kindergarten being one of the hardest grades to teach. I see that in my daughter's class. The range of abilities is amazing which should not surprise anyone who has spent time with children. There is a big difference between a just turned five year old and an almost six year old. Last year I was amazed by my daughter's pre-k teacher. This year I am amazed by my daughter's kinder teacher.

I agree with those that say we need more stable funding. One thing I have not seen mention is the state's equity in funding plan. It is seriously flawed. It costs more to educate a child in Portland than it does in many other areas. Building maintence alone is significantly more in Portland than in district where they are building new buildings. The funding plan needs to recognize this. Portland also subsidizes other districts' expensive bussing plans. This is money that comes out of Portland classrooms and directly into the gas tanks of other districts. The funding formula needs to change.

For what it's worth - even with the craziness of a large class my daughter loves school. She loves learning and can't wait to get there each day.

Do we have a solution for this? It is wrong.

Ideally, having some mandate that of each $1 for education, maybe $0.80 ends up in the classroom.

Gov Kulongoski's statement that the education budget was up 20%, but that student/teacher ratios would not change (all the extra went to benefits) makes me think that raising taxes is not a simple answer.

"Do we have a solution for this? It is wrong.

Ideally, having some mandate that of each $1 for education, maybe $0.80 ends up in the classroom."

That is fine if there is a concrete definition of "in the classroom". We need serious discussion of such things as salary and job description/evaluation of administrators.

But also, there are those who don't want to count librarians and counselors as "classroom" expenses. Also, what about maintenance, bus drivers, cafeteria workers? Are they not essential? As someone who has worked as a school librarian, I distrust slogans until we know the definition of "in the classroom".

"I've completely removed from the US educational system."Well, goody for you and your son. Some of us still believe in the public school system and in providing a good education for all...not just the elite few who can afford the luxury of a private school. Lots of misconceptions here about kindergarten benchmarks and expectations. Kindergarten is no longer about play and learning social skills...Kindergarten today is the new first grade in PPS and many Oregon schools. The benchmarks look like first grade did a few years back. In the rush to meet NCLB standards the curriculum has been pushed down. And with 27 to 34 kids, it is a stressful, impossible task for many teachers. If it were not for parents, I would not be able to assess and report the reams of required data, nor would I be able to teach the required small reading groups, or teach the small group writers workshop which is how the new kindergarten looks today. I teach full day, but our half day teacher with 31 kids is expected to meet the same benchmarks and do the same assessments in half the time. It is time for Oregon to pass a law to limit class size to 20, at least in the primary grades. And remember...."Childhood is a Journey, not a race."

"We agree with the experts: kindergarteners need a controlled environment—one in which they know they can regularly touch base with their teacher and think out loud with their classmates. As it stands now, our daughters can’t even remember the names of all their classmates." Now imagine how we teachers feel when we are trying to teach them...with about 30 kids in the room, and we barely get a moment to touch base with each kid each day. Now throw in a couple of kids with some severe behavior problems and imagine trying to teach...and then a few who might speak only a few words of English (or less)...Gets harder and harder doesn't it?

At Humboldt we have two nice small full-day Kindergarten classes with really wonderful teachers. We also have a high percentage of neighborhood students who transfer to other schools simply due to concerns among gentrifying families about the demographic make-up of our school. I bet there are more than a few Humboldt neighborhood children sitting in desks over at Abernathy.

Part of the solution to the problem of huge Kindergarten class sizes at some schools is to revise the PPS transfer system that encourages families to flee low income and minority schools. And please don't suggest that neighborhood families are transferring because "those schools" have badly-behaved kids and too few involved parents. Humboldt has well-behaved students and involved parents.

I currently have a 5th grader in a public school and a preschooler. My son will be entering in Kindergarten next year. I am very concerned with what I am reading here.

First, Kindergarten should not be full day, either everyday or every other day. That is too much for some 5 year olds. We have kids that just want to play a little at school. Our school is on a twice a week(full day) with alt. Mondays as are a lot of schools. Because of this and that fact that our school is a title one school wide school our kindergarteners spend most of their day in reading. Which on the surface sound wonderful that these kids get all of this reading instruction. One down side to this is that not all kids need the extra reading and so those that do not need the title one program spend their time doing independant study. Because the teacher is helping other kids with reading. The other down side of this is there is no time for extra learning. They do not get math or sceince everyday that they are there. They must start with education from the time they walk in the door. When my older son was in kindergarten(which was half day, every day) they had time to sit on a carpet and say good morning and sing a song or two and learn about the weather and the date and acknowledge a fellow classmates birthday and sing happy birthday to them. However with 3 out of 6 hours a day spent in reading or reading instruction of some kind there is no time for any of that "extra" stuff. Some would say that is fine and they will be better readers but, at what cost. I believe that all a kindergartener should go half day. Some are just learning how to stand in line and work with others, you can't expect a child that has had no formal education to go straight into a full day kindergarten program. If these classes in Portland were half day with no option for all day then classes would have fewer kids in them. It is simple math folks, If you have a full day kindergarten class with 30 kids and you made it two half day classes then each class would have only 15. I hope they go back to half day when my son starts next year.

Second, Kids with learning disabilities will and are getting lost in Kindergarten. Because when your teacher has so many kids to teach then they will not have time to work with one child for the time required to help them understand the subject. If they dont understand something lets hope they can pick it up at home because they will be lost. Class sizes are to big for what these teachers are having thrown at them. Learning disabilites, students that know very little english and to make matters worse, parents that know no english and having a child translate if they can so the teacher can talk to the parent. Then you add large class sizes and state requirement for what they have to do because how a school is branded. There if very little time for a teacher to be a teacher.

The other problem with larger class sizes and only one adult in a class is, that kindergarten is the corner stone to all learning. This is the year that a child will decided if they love or hate school. If the teacher or classmates can't remember his/her name what is that going to say to them about school.

Last year I was very involved in my son school. I was the pta treasurer and my husband was the president. I was at the school everyday and I did volunteer at least 8-10 hours a week most weeks were more. Next year when my last child is in school I will be back. I will be at the school most of the day. We have so many short falls in our school that there really is not enough money to cover them and the district has rules on where a pta can spend there money in regaurds to buying staff and books and such. After stepping back this year I can see where the biggest gaps are. I will step back up next year and try to fill in those gaps. I can't do it all and I know this however if every stay at home mom would volunteer one hour a week in their childs class your teacher would be so happy. If a class has 20 kids in it then that class would have a volunteer almost all day.

Bottom line is that schools today and yesterday do not have the funding to hire a new teacher every year. So with class sizes growing we as parents need to step up and do what we can to help out. Quit standing on the side lines and telling everyone what and how to do it and what should and shouldn't be done. You don't have to go in the classroom to be a volunteer either, a teacher can send home papers to be graded or projects to be cut out or a lot of other things can be done behind the scenes that are just a important and rewarding. If you dont want to volunteer in the classroom there are a lot of other ways you can volunteer. You can work in the library, Most school either share or dont have a libraian, you can work in the lunch room or music or in the office. Just ask what you can do for your school. Even if you dont have kids in school anymore, you can still volunteer we have the smart reading program and esl. There are many many many more ways people can help out in the school with out spending money. Use a little elbow grease to get the job done we dont have to keep spending money to fix a problem.

I will stop now, I am just very passinate about schools and education for our future generation. These are the people that will be taking care of our country in a few years. Look around are they going to be ready? Stop telling people what to do and start asking what can I do to help.

I have to say that I'm appalled that so few people commenting here seem to see increased education funding as the solution. So many commenters are talking about so many solutions to the problem, but when the idea of increased taxes comes up, suddenly everybody becomes a republican.

The cuts PPS took during the 1990s were heartbreaking. PPS cut its budget by 12.8% in one year alone. Over three years following Measure 5 it lost $100 million of its annual budget. We have yet to permanently restore that quarter of its budget.

Unaccompanied by calls for increased spending, the complaints here sound an awful lot like the republican strategies for breaking our public education system. So please, somebody, tell me that we need to raise taxes again to pay for education. Otherwise I might just lose the last dregs of my faith in humanity.

I have to say that I'm appalled that so few people commenting here seem to see increased education funding as the solution. So many commenters are talking about so many solutions to the problem, but when the idea of increased taxes comes up, suddenly everybody becomes a republican.

A lot of Portlanders voted like Republicans in the 1990's, passing Measure 5 and cutting those property taxes in Irvington and Alameda, which pretty much dried up much of the school funding, and limited the ability of local districts to raise additional funds.

And after the last decade of funding battles, and ever decreasing coffers, this year actually looks a bit better than before. I think my boys get an excellent education at Sabin Elementary (and of course their education doesn't only occur in school).

So sure - raise my taxes! I'd pay more to support public schools. But try putting that on a ballot measure and see how Mr. French School, or even Mr. "My Class Has 26 kids and I'm Mostly Worried About the Poor" actually votes in an election...

While I hold my breath, I'll volunteer, and prepare for another school auction...

Thanks, Bill. There are realistic solutions, and then there are realistic expectations. They don't always match up.

I don't disagree with the comments about the need for improved funding, but let's not forget how much PPS loves bait-and-switch tactics! I remember back in the 90's a bond was passed for capital improvements for schools. Its language specifically stated that it was to be used for repair/remodeling of school buildings. A couple of years later it came out that PPS had illegally used the money for remodeling the BESC. What was their punishment? A slap on the wrist.

And look what Vicki Phillips did with the recent bond money that she had promised would go to restoring art, music and PE to the schools. What did she actually spend it on? Vice principals and a few counselors!

Bottom line, you can't trust the folks who make the decisions about the $.

wheels and others, I absolutely agree with you that increased education funding is a critical part of the solution. Thank you for keeping that issue at the forefront. Individual and corporate taxpayers need to support public education with our tax dollars, not just our words. It's disgusting to see Nike, Intel and other corporations getting free advertising for their "donations" to public schools, while at the same time they fight to keep Oregon's corporate taxes among the lowest in the nation so that our public funding for education remains inadequate.

Wheels writes:

"As for Lake Oswego or Riverdale, those districts are moving in entirely the wrong direction. Charging tuition for public education is absolutely the worst way to recover the funding gap. Tuition is $6500/year for HS in LO. It's more than twice that at Riverdale High. This is exactly the trend the Bush administration would love for us to go in. The wealthy get great education, the poor get lousy education."

Don't know where you're getting your facts from, but your quote about Riverdale reveals some considerable ignorance. Riverdale is $10,300 per year for High School. It isn't even close to double LO. That said, you have to look at what you're getting. At LO, classes are still large, but there is considerable choice of classes. At Riverdale, classes are much smaller (which is what we wanted), but you do sacrifice some class choice. So far, we haven't seen any scheduling limitation that has made us regret our choice. For comparisons - St Mary's Academy charges $8600, as does Jesuit (these numbers may vary slightly). The High School tuition at OES at Catlin is about $21,500 now and both increase at a 5-7% per year range. We know from experience in K - 8 at OES about the increases and the price. It wasn't price that drove us away from OES; it was the school's near maniacal focus on math and science and lip service to other things. This is great for some kids, but just drove us and our daughter insane. It was time for a change.

Riverdale is $10,300 per year for High School. It wasn't price that drove us away from OES;
It was time for a change.

And it sounds like you have some loose change..! Now could this be a supporter of increasing taxes for public education?

I gotta say, I love public schools, because at their best they reflect the reality and diversity of American society. But I'm fine without the Riverdale demographic. Adieu!

Oregon Bill writes;

"And it sounds like you have some loose change..! Now could this be a supporter of increasing taxes for public education?

I gotta say, I love public schools, because at their best they reflect the reality and diversity of American society. But I'm fine without the Riverdale demographic. Adieu!"

Actually, I'm not a supporter of increasing taxes for public education ..... yet. I've done my time on the cross for public schools through two children, but it wasn't fun time and I didn't necessarily think throwing money at the problem would necessarily solve anything. I'm just still trying to figure out exactly how the public schools spend the tax dollars they get now. I know PPS has an older work force and this drives up both health care and pension costs, but as the demographic of the district changes, those costs should either stabilize or go down a bit.

As far as the Riverdale "demographic" as you put it, I'd suggest you spend a day there before painting in monochrome colors. The same with OES. My youngest daughter has been exposed to more ethnic and socioeconomic diversity at both those schools than either of my older daughters were at any PPS or Tigard public school. Yes, Riverdale has affluent parents, but Riverdale also has parents on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum whose school districts have agreed to transfer their local funds to cover the cost at Riverdale. My daughter's best friends at Riverdale are from Whitford (Beaverton), and Hosford (PPS), and one who went to Riverdale Elementary.

So adieu to you and au revoir as well. Bon Voyage. Bon journee, etc.

Actually, I'm not a supporter of increasing taxes for public education ..... yet.

You're joking! (I'd never have guessed...)

I didn't necessarily think throwing money at the problem would necessarily solve anything.

Though you put up with those annual 5 - 7% increases at OES. You're a saint. (I think you've earned a litte "fun time" - perhaps with Jorge at the spa?)

I'd suggest you spend a day there before painting in monochrome colors.

A quick look at the website suggests it ain't exactly a rainbow: http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/1527106271655563/site/default.asp

But hey, I wrote too quickly - ideally, public education should serve the entire public. Even those who forget to pay social security taxes on the nanny..(!)

Mr Fearless: My apologies, Riverdale HS tuition is not twice LO's. It is in fact $11,285/year, according to their website. All simple math errors aside... It's still ridiculous. Riverdale should not even get to call itself a public school district supplemented by private funds. It's a private school district subsidized heavily by public funds.

By the way, I don't like being called ignorant, not on this issue anyway. And I take issue with "I've done my time on the cross for public schools" on a number of levels. Keep your comments to the issues, hold your personal attacks. Moving on...

On the subject of "how the district uses its $", PPS cut 300 full-time positions in 1992, all of them from the central office. They've been operating this district with a skeleton crew ever since. So an argument about PPS spending so much money on overhead simply doesn't hold water. Plus, anyone who has spent time in the BESC for a board meeting recently knows it's a death trap.

I will agree that the leadership over the past 15 years has been lacking. The revolving door superintendents PPS has had have not helped public education in the long term nor helped the public's perception of it. But I cannot accept that as a reason to turn my back on public education. Besides, the new superintendent holds a lot of promise, more so than anyone since the 1980s.

Finally, Humboldt Parent hits the nail right on the head. The district has done very well to recover its lost state revenue by procuring grant money, which now accounts for nearly a fifth of its annual budget. But the likes of Nike and Bill & Melinda Gates, honestly, do more harm than good. Those of you who take issue with the way the district spends its money should take a good look at what these foundations want their money to be spent on.

And that's increasingly where we're headed. The more people theorize about the schools' supposed "poor management" instead of their lack of funding, the more the public school districts will become privatized, and the more power will be thrown to the Nikes and the Gateses.

Power that was once held by the principals, the teachers and, most importantly, the parents.

I've done my time on the cross for public schools through two children, but it wasn't fun time

By the way, many (if not most) other school volunteers have a LOT of fun.

Getting involved with the PTA and helping out, seeing your kids and meeting their teachers and friends and other parents is a great experience - and it can make a big difference in your local school.

American Bill writes:

"By the way, many (if not most) other school volunteers have a LOT of fun.

Getting involved with the PTA and helping out, seeing your kids and meeting their teachers and friends and other parents is a great experience - and it can make a big difference in your local school."

Been there, done that in spades, got the t-shirt and I have two successful children. However, they are there in spite of, not because of, the PPS and the Tigard Public Schools. They were there during periods when Oregon used to claim they had the "best schools in the country". And I used to puzzle over that (as a College Professor with a superior public education from California in the 1950's and early 1960's). All I could wonder about is whether this was hype or self-congratulations. Nothing I saw in the instructional quality or the programs justified (IMHO) the claim. Nevertheless my wife and I volunteered (taking time out of work) at least 15 hours per week in our childrens' schools. And, we still volunteer at our youngest school. Volunteerism is an expectation wherever children go to school. There is nothing special about what goes on in public schools today. I've seen parents volunteer 25 and 30 hours per week at OES. It's all about involved parenting.

Tell me something different.

"Wheels" has it right about how grant $ disenfranchises parents. For proof, all you have to do is look at Jefferson HS. Not satisfied with recreating the school in Gates' image with Gates Foundation $, the PPS Foundation gave $ to Tony Hopson to form a "community advocacy board" whose members are handpicked by Hopson and the principal. Very few JHS parents got picked!

Seems like this discussion started out about oversize K classes and then veered off into funding (or lack of it). Guess that was inevitable.

Jenni -- I agree. The PPS org chart is an impossible labyrinth in comparison to the administrative setup it operated under before Measure 5. Phillips' central hiring was almost Kafkaesque in its top-heaviness. It throws a wrench in my argument.

Jonathan Kozol's The Shame of the Nation spends a lot of time on this tendency of districts bringing on these highly paid administrators to "fix" the schools. To me it's a reaction to the funding crisis, though, and part of that trend toward privatization and "running the district like a business." And it's an age old republican tactic: take away their money and then blame them for not being able to operate properly anymore.

I don't want to make excuses for it, though. PPS' recent top-heaviness is without a doubt a serious concern, but I still refuse to turn my back on funding public education. And I have a lot of faith in Superintendent Smith. In the end I still maintain that we need to restore funding first, and then use our leverage to restore accountability.

Well, I'm not turning my back on public education either. I'm back, although paying tuition because I have a special needs kid - her needs are for a high quality education with small classes. Not an unreasonable expectation for parents to have these days. My experiences with public education in Oregon ALL precede Measure 5, so Measure 5 just upped the ante for my wife and I to decide that we couldn't abide our third (and adopted FWIW) child to set foot in a public school under Measure 5. We've supported every initiative floated by PPS (during the 1990's and into the 2000's). We even voted in the Mult Co income tax and waited until it expired before moving to Clackamas County. But even LO schools are too big for what we need/want. And since we can afford it, we will pay the tuition. But don't ever suggest or accuse me of turning my back on public education. I taught for 35 years at PSU - I know a thing or two about public education. But I just happen to think that either PPS or LO schools are the best place for MY child. And, Riverdale must have raised its tuition since we were admitted in Feb of 2007. I'm holding a 2007-08 invoice for $9800, plus the $500 deposit we put down to hold the spot. That means $10,300 when we were admitted for the current year.

I just happen to think that either PPS or LO schools are the best place for MY child.

Like a friend of mine who also can afford what her child needs.

Unfortunately we're burdened by all those who don't seem to have any understanding of what their children need - or maybe worse - don't care. It's breeding the situation Horass Mann predicted, as he stumped the country in favor of public education - "It may be an easy thing to make a Republic; but it is a very laborious thing to make Republicans; and woe to the republic that rests upon no better foundations than ignorance, selfishness, and passion."

Plenty of woe, it seems, is what we've earned.

"Phillips' central hiring was almost Kafkaesque in its top-heaviness." This is absolutely correct. In fact, word has it you can barely walk thru the hallways at the BESC for all the consultant bodies taking up room there. Throw them overboard, NOW!

I have to make a comment about kindergarten size and funding they can go hand in hand. If we had more funding we could have smaller class sizes. But, is class sizes the first thing to get fixed if we had more funding. In Hillsboro we lost 17 days off the end of the school year 6 years ago, because we did not have the funding. School was out that year in May. Three weeks before the rest of the metro area. The students that year missed out on a lot of field trips and other activites because they had to squeeze 17 days of learning in to the rest of the days. We have yet to get those days back They are just now spread out through out the year and so it does not look as bad. We also share or have not nurses or librarians or full time pe or music or art programs so as you can see there are a lot more things at stake in addition to class sizes. I will say that our funding in Hillsboro has gotten better and you can tell because some of our class sizes and other programs have started to take a turn for the better. We have added more gym classes, about 10 mins a week. We now have two 25 minute classes a week instead of one 40 min. class. But, we can still do better and I will not stop helping until class sizes are down to 15-20 students per class at all grade levels.

If we want to start in the kindergarten class then we should make all kindergarten classes every day and only 1/2 day, no full time classes! These kids are too young to go all day some have never been in a formal class and so to throw them in a 6 hour class is to much. They go from mom and dad to all of sudden taken care of a lot of things on their own and some still need a nap in the middle of the day. Their day moves so fast and they get so tired after around 3-4 hours. If we take a class of 30 all day kinders and make two 1/2 day classes out of them they would each only have 15 students. That would be a start. I know a lot of people would and do object to this idea. Each one has their own reason. But, I still do not think a 5 year old is old enough to go to school all day.

As for funding and voting on increasing taxes. I agree with a lot of voices here. If it will fix the school funding then I would vote for it. I do have a problem with a tax increase if it is wasted. I do not see that problem out in Hillsboro. We have slimed down our spending and we have little waste. Our teachers spend a lot of their own money on class supplies because they do not have them money in the budger for the items needed.

In Hillsboro we have 80% of households that have no ties to a school. Meaning they have no kids or grandkids in school. But, if they would think about it, they do have a tie to school in our neighborhoods and they should have an investment in our schools. If we are forces to close schools early in the year again because of funding then these same kids will be running around because parents still have work and some do not want to pay for day care for a child in 6-7-8th grades. Because, if people do not want to pay now in higher taxes then they will pay later in high taxes for increase police potection and prison space. So take a pick which would you rather fund? Schools or prison. I myself would rather fund schools and invest in our future generations.

If we have 30 kids in a class how much help are they really getting? Not much. If they are in the middle of the class as far as level of learning then they get very little attention. High end kids get extra work or are put in a TAG program and the lower end kids get the extra help in title one and other programs. All of which are very important and should not go away but, we do need to tackle this school funding before we have to attack the funding for the prison system.

Again I ask everyone to stop asking "How are YOU going to fix this?" and start asking "How can I help fix this?"or "What can I do to help in the school?" How much additional taxes are we talking about anyways? Not much as far as I am concerned. I will take a guess and say that it is a whole lot less then what some are paying for out of district tuition. I would really have a hard time believing that the higher taxes would be 9000.00 a year for each household.

I would think that there would be no connection because they closed middle schools not elementary schools. So they took k-5 and 6-8 schools and combined them. So I may be wrong but, I dont see where that would increase class size. I do live in Hillsboro so I am not sure our elementary schools are k-6 now and our kinder classes avgerage 23 students and our largest class school wide is 28(I believe,last I heard anyways). So I dont see how our kinder class would grow just if they were to close the middle school.

I also have another question though. When I was in middle school in Gresham, a few year ago, we had year round school. What ever happened to that. We seem to have reasonable class sizes. We had 4 tracks so at any time there was only 3/4 of the school there but, the school was open year round. We would go 9 weeks and off 3 weeks and then once a year you would get 6 weeks off and that would be like your summer vacation. My parents seemed to like it because we did not get bored with summer vacation and I believe our vacation was over winter so a lot of the people were not off at the same time and so travel was nicer. Just a question. Maybe it was also funding is why it went away but, if anyone has the answer for this then please pass it my way.

OB, the ad hominem attacks really aren't helpful. I don't know what my location in the city (which you identify incorrectly) and my political sentiments (which you also identify incorrectly) have to do with the facts.

Families with two working parents or single parent households have less time to volunteer. That is a fact. There is a correlation between two working parent and single parent households and income levels. Another fact.

I honestly don't care if you think 26 students in a kindergarten class is not a "crisis" or if other posters were in a kgarten class of 32 and "did just fine." It is also a fact that small class sizes is strongly correlated with academic performance.

The question in front of us is not whether you think 26 is big or small but whether parents will continue to live in, or move to, a city school district with large kindergarten, and I mention once more, even larger (>40 average) middle and high school classes and middle schools with no art, music, or sports while the nearby suburban districts afford a far different educational experience.

If not, then we continue to lose families and this city will be a very different place in 20 years.

would think that there would be no connection because they closed middle schools not elementary schools. So they took k-5 and 6-8 schools and combined them. So I may be wrong but, I dont see where that would increase class size.

It may be that they're thinking class sizes increased because now you have to fit enough classrooms for three additional grades into the school. By upping class sizes, you can decrease the number of classrooms needed for each grade, and therefore fit more grades into a school.

I would agree. I had not thought of that but, now that you mention it that makes sense. I think of my sons school and I hate to think where we would put 300 or so more kids from grades 7 and 8 from the middle school. Our school would have to bring in more portables because we are out of classrooms now.

As far as year round school goes. The whole district could be on the same schedule and so you would not have the problem with different schools on different schedules and so families would be together. Parents would get used to it. It would be like anything else new it would just take time to adjust to it. On big plus about year round school is test scores go up because students do not have be retaught what they learned from the previous year. But the only way it will relieve over crowded class rooms is to have different tracks in a school.

Bottom line is that the only way we are going to solve this problem with large classes is to fund the schools with enough funds for them to do thier job right. I dont mean give them a flower budget or money to throw away but, enough that we can have enough teachers so the classes are not over 15 for kinder and 20 for upper grades. We also need to have a nurse for each school and a librarian and a full time pe teacher and the list goes on and on. Oregon has standards for what a quality education would be and we are a long way from it. It starts with the class size but, goes on from there.

I think if every tax payer, corporations too, would pay a little more then we could solve all of the problems our schools have. As I stated before, all of these people that are taking their kids out of thier home districts because of class sizes are paying upwards of 9000.00 and I know that an increase in taxes to cover the short fall in the schools would be a lot less then that. So I think we should all dig a little deeper in our pockets start funding these schools with enough money. Even if the taxes would go up an additional 500.00 a year then so be it we need to fund these schools. Some of you would save 8500.00 a year. I am not 100% sure of how much taxes would need to go up but I do know that it is less then out of district fees.

An other thought that I have for helping with over crowding. I think that families that are staying in district should have to go to the school of the boundaries that they live in. Unless the school they want to attend has the space and they should have to apply every year. They should have to pay a fee for that too. I am saying this because just because you want you child to go to a certain elementary school because you went there that is not a valid reason for a transfer. I think an indistrict transfer should be on a year by year basis. Because if a school can hold 500 students and we have 490 in boundary kids so 10 can come from out of boundaries what happens next year when we have 30 new kids move in and we still have those same 10 from out of boundaries. We are now even more over crowded. High school is a little different because students are starting to think about what they want to do with the rest of their lives and one high school may offer something a little different then the others. But, I am talking about elementary.

Hi Paul G. -

Losing westside Republicans to suburban schools is a problem, but if 26 kids in kindergarten, along with music and art might send you packing, I'm not sure what can be done.

We have a great school in Sabin, with diverse, reasonably sized classes, an excellent art and gym teacher, counselor, afterschool SUN programs, and an enthusiastic and active PTA. Lots of parents from diverse families participate and volunteer. And if there's a crisis, we dive in and help - we don't run away to Riverdale..!

I see that Humboldt has only 15 students in their kindergarten and what sounds like a dedicated group of parent volunteers. Maybe your daughter could transfer in?

Here's the reason for the kindergarten crunch (also seen at most Grant cluster schools as well as the schools mentioned above), PPS enrollment is up in the early grades:

http://159.191.14.139/.docs/pg/12181