House Republicans trying to undermine Oregon schools
Today at the Legislature, the Oregon House Republicans tried to pull a fast one.
Their goal? To tear down Oregon's public schools.
“This ‘set ‘em up and knock ‘em down’ scheme for public education is hardly the stuff of serious and thoughtful policy makers,” said State Representative Peter Buckley (D-Ashland). “In the name of ‘saving’ public education, House Republicans have engaged in outrageous tactics just so they can later destroy it.”
Their approach? A series of parliamentary maneuvers to pull a series of bills from committee and onto the floor. The three bills were:
HB 3427 is the notorious "65 Percent Solution" which has been pushed nationwide by right-wing political hacks. Why do they like it so much? In a statement, the House Democrats noted that supporters of the 65% scam had admitted what they were up to in a secret memo:
Among those benefits, they cite pitting “administrators and teachers at odds with one another,” and creating “tremendous tension within the [teachers’ labor] organization.” In addition, the same memo acknowledges that “large segments of the voting public—especially suburban, affluent women voters—view [vouchers and charter schools] as an abandonment of public education.” The memo states that, once changes are made in public schools according to the “First Class Education proposal, targeted segments of voters may be more greatly predisposed to supporting voucher and charter school proposals, as Republicans address the voting public with greater credibility on public education issues.”
HB 2613 would set up a $35 million auditing bureaucracy for public schools (but not charter schools or private schools), even though Democrats have already moved forward other accountability measures.
HB 3450 would eliminate all accountability and testing for home schooled children. Rep. Linda Flores (R-Clackamas) argued that it would “deregulate public education for home schoolers.” 'Nuff said.
Of course, the attempts to force floor votes failed.
Discuss.
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June 19, 2007
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Jun 19, '07
The masthead of one bill says this:
Sponsored by Representatives ROBLAN, FLORES, Senators JOHNSON, STARR; Representatives BUCKLEY, CLEM, DALLUM, GREENLICK, KOMP, MINNIS, MORGAN, WHISNANT, Senators BURDICK, GORDLY, KRUSE, MORSE (at the request of Chalkboard Project)
It happens that I agree with the Chalkboard Project on this one. We have a local school district which deserves to have to explain the actions of their administrators to outside auditors. Their HR operation especially has had serious problems (in one case they didn't move on a problem until Sen. Vicki Walker started investigating).
One of our school board members has been trying to fix this but is often alone. It is time for some "adult supervision" of school district administrative practices. While I agree the other bills are dangerous, this one deserves more attention than it has gotten.
10:48 p.m.
Jun 19, '07
Yeah, there's probably more here than meets the eye. I'm curious about that one too. I suspect that the good stuff has been folded into another bill, or maybe the House GOP just felt they couldn't pull their tricks with just the bills with exclusively GOP sponsors. I'm not really sure.
Jun 19, '07
HB 2816 would require that the state perform audits on all 197 school districts over a six year period. It costs roughly $1 million to do six audits, so it would take roughly $33 million per biennium away from K-12 ... just at the time we are building back what was cut during 16 years of Republican assault on public education. That's millions less to add electives, make athletics and extracurricular activities affordable to kids from less affluent families, and reduce class sizes. Throwing money haphazardly at audits isn't good education policy, and it isn't a wise use of taxpayer dollars. We can learn the same from more focused use of audits, targeted at establishing best practices as well as ensuring that the bad apples are adequately scrutinized.
Jun 19, '07
Poor Linda Flores. More than perhaps anyone else in the House Republican caucus, Flores has seemed to have the most difficult time accepting that she is in the minority. Scott's only goal is to screw Democratic leadership; Minnis barely shows up; but Flores expresses shock and anger that her anti-immigrant, anti-public school, and radical pro-life agenda is no longer the policy of House leadership. Thanks goodness that she is no longer chair of the education committee, and that policies intended to strengthen, not undermine, Oregon's K-12 system are the focus of legislative efforts.
Jun 19, '07
Personally, I think that the obsession with standardized testing that we have in our public schools, especially since Bush's Texas-style No Child Left Behind, is lowering the quality of education in Oregon and around the country. But I can see why some people insist on test-based "accountability", since public schools use public money. Private schools don't use public funding, and don't have the requirement for testing. Homeschoolers also don't take any public funding, but have to pay for testing that serves no purpose. For a homeschooled student to "fail" the test, he would have to score below the 15 percentile for two consecutive years. In practice, nobody ever fails, and this is just a waste of money and time for the homeschooling families and busy work for the Educational Service Districts that collect the results of the tests. Testing homeschoolers only benefits the companies who sell the tests.
The responsibility for educating our children lies first of all in the family. Just like the responsibility for providing other necessities to our kids, from food, to clothing, to shelter, to safety, lies first of all in the family. Mandating standardized testing for homeschoolers is at best a waste of time and money, and at worst an intrusion of the state into the right of parents to choose the best education for their children.
12:04 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
For a homeschooled student to "fail" the test, he would have to score below the 15 percentile for two consecutive years.
Is that really the standard we're setting for students in our state? That you're only failing if you're below the 15th percentile two years in a row?
That's not good enough. Frankly, I think homeschooling - if it's going to remain legal at all - needs to meet a higher standard than the public or private schools. Otherwise, our society is failing those kids by allowing them to stay home and fail to get even a basic education.
Seriously, if a kid sits at the 20% percent mark forever, that's hardly an education. (And contrary, if a homeschooled kid sits well above the mark - say the 75th percentile or better - then, well, that's all for the good.)
There's all kinds of problems with standardized testing, but until we've got some other metrics, they should apply to all students in school - public, private, charter, or at home.
Jun 20, '07
John said, "Homeschoolers also don't take any public funding, but have to pay for testing that serves no purpose."
Actually the first part of that statement isn't true (the second can be debated). Homeschoolers are eligible for many benefits via public schools from activities to classes- and often take advantage of them.
I'd argue that conservative opposition to public schools isn't really about funding and funding accountability (they're fine with public funds flowing to charters)- it's about the hated unions and certain classes/viewpoints (like science) that they don't like and others they do like and can't offer in typical public schools (like intelligent design).
What troubles me is how many D's have lined up for the Chalkboard Project which has bought into the financial accountability frame hook line and sinker- giving legitimacy to the lie that public schools in Oregon are somehow hot beds of fiscal waste. Could they be better in terms of accounting and waste? Sure. Same is true for Nike and Intel. But "wasted' funds isn't the main problem here- strategic, systematic underfunding of public schools over time is the problem. Bean counters won't solve that problem.
12:06 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
an intrusion of the state into the right of parents to choose the best education for their children.
Oh, and please spare me the right-wing drivel on this one.
No one has the right to beat or molest their children, fail to feed them, or house them in unsanitary conditions.
By the same token, no one should have the right to deny them a basic education. That's absurd.
Certainly, there are plenty of homeschoolers that are doing just fine educating their kids. Those are the ones that should welcome testing -- precisely because the terrible homeschoolers are ruining for the good ones.
Jun 20, '07
Sorry, it's your argument that's not good enough. This son of a woman who was a proud 32-year public school teacher knows a LOT of home-schooled kids, and except for the odd one or two who are being home-schooled by religious zealots (and no, not all home-schoolers are religious zealots by any means), the home-schoolers have it all over the schooled. I mean, it's not even close. I have multiple advanced degrees, and I think I've done all right, but there's no question at all that the average home schooler is getting a far better education than the average schoolbound kid. They are more alert, alive, inquisitive, self-disciplined, and far more able to be self-instructing. In general, they learn to be lifelong learners, whereas the vast majority of schoolbound students are basically just scarred by the experience. Go teach at the community colleges for a while --- they are filled with older students who were schoolbound and who were so badly treated by the experience that they fled for years, and need lots of coddling and handholding just to bring them up past remedial instruction.
You need to read a whole lot more before talking about making homeschooling illegal --- try "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto, "Punished by Rewards" and "The Schools Our Children Deserve" by Alfie Kohn, and "The Unschooling Handbook" by Mary Griffith.
Meanwhile, why would you possibly suggest that homeschoolers need to meet a higher standard than schoolbound kids? Although that's not a difficult hurdle, haven't you got it backwards? I mean, we make a much greater financial commitment to schoolbound kids--if we're going to have differential standards, shouldn't the standards be higher for those kids given over to the professionals?
Besides, homeschoolers help schoolbound kids by reducing class sizes while continuing to pay full freight on their taxes, and they allow teachers to give more time to the kinds of kids whose parents are unable to homeschool them.
12:59 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
George, you've made my point for me.
there's no question at all that the average home schooler is getting a far better education than the average schoolbound kid.
You bet. I have no doubt about that.
except for the odd one or two who are being home-schooled by religious zealots
These are the ones I'm concerned about.
Meanwhile, why would you possibly suggest that homeschoolers need to meet a higher standard than schoolbound kids? Although that's not a difficult hurdle...
Right. So, what's wrong with a little testing to prove your first point?
Responsible homeschoolers should support increased accountability -- they'll be fine. By weeding out the bad ones, they'll prevent any political momentum for banning it from ever getting underway.
1:04 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
except for the odd one or two who are being home-schooled by religious zealots
p.s. It's hardly an odd one or two. Back in 1993, when I was an intern for then-Congressman Wyden, we were inundated one day by inbound phone calls from hundreds, maybe a couple thousand, of Oregon homeschooling parents who were freaking out (and I mean FREAKING OUT) because some Oregon homeschooling association from the zealotry wing had told 'em all that Hillary Clinton was planning to inject computer chips into their kids.
It took us an entire day to figure out what the hell they were talking about. Turns out, it was her plan to create a nationwide vaccination database for kids. A database of injections, not injected computer chips.
I must have answered 500 calls myself that one day. There's more than just an odd one or two right-wing religious zealot homeschoolers in Oregon.
Jun 20, '07
Kari:
I doubt John Napolitano, of all people, was spouting right-wing drivel. And I think he has a point: requiring standardized testing of homeschoolers is a little invasive. It assumes that the federal government has a better understanding of education than the parents.
There's a difference between providing solid education and providing education that allows a student to pass a No-Child-Left-Behind test. And God only knows what the federal tests will look like in the future -- The Iraq War was: a)a great war, b)greatest war ever.
You're right that parents aren't allowed to abuse or neglect their children. On the other hand, most people would object to universal home-inspections to determine whether they provide sanitary conditions and nutritionally balanced meals -- especially if the inspections were designed by Clorox and Oscar Meier lobbyists.
Personally, I prefer to rely on parental love to guide parents to do what's best for their kids. Are there some parents who fail their children? Absolutely. But under Bush, the federal government is failing everyone's children.
Jun 20, '07
I'm with Kari on the testing for homeschoolers needing to be standardized and coordinated. My rationale?
Not so much with measuring the progress of the homeschoolers, necessarily, but a focus on standard measures of how the kids are performing. I know one homeschooling family. They aren't religious zealots, but they use resources from religious folks for testing--and the price tag, plus the tests used, are bunk.
The mother's told me about the test and the process. It's the same frickin' test I use to diagnose kids with learning disabilities. Grrr. The test administrator isn't administering the protocol appropriately, either. Waste of time and money, in my opinion; using a sledgehammer to kill flies.
Give homeschooled kids the same tests all public school kids are required to take by the state. Then you can compare performance, apples to apples.
Jun 20, '07
With more than half of Americans not believing in evolution and more than 30% of them thinking the sun revolves around the earth, according to one recent poll, is this a good time to be removing all oversight from home schooling?
I have a strong suspicion that in many cases, "home schooling" means "non-schooling."
Jun 20, '07
What if the state standardized tests (they are not national although they are drawn from national organizations) are bunk? What if you home school your child with traditional methods of teaching math and reading but the state tests are of the new-new math and out-of-sequence requirements for reading? For instance, instead of asking to solve a basic arithmetic problem you have to show 3 different ways of how you got to the answer. A correct answer is only partial credit.
I really think home schoolers should be left the hell alone. Why fix a problem if there really isn't one? If you want to fix something, fix the public system. The schools, ESPECIALLY in Oregon, have no room for teachers that think differently (READ: traditionally). So we are, in essence, dumbing down our students. Why are we testing lower in the world? Why are our universities filling up with students from out of country? Why are colleges ramping up remedial classes - especially in math?
Please help fix the education problem by actually looking at what is going on in the system, starting in kindergarten on up. Look at Project Follow Through. Look at the test scores in California - what happened in the 1980's when they went from traditional math and reading to the reform stuff. I'm not saying the traditional ways are the ONLY way, but it should be an option for parents. Currently, it is NOT an available option for many, if not most.
Jun 20, '07
umm, okay, so when you talk about "if homeschooling is allowed to remain legal at all" you're saying that in the face of your agreement that, on average, it provides a better education.
Ok, then ...
Jun 20, '07
Kari, you're kind of a bigot on this issue. Your point about ensuring some limited accountability among homeschoolers might be valid if you hadn't started with this:
Frankly, I think homeschooling - if it's going to remain legal at all - needs to meet a higher standard than the public or private schools.
Withdraw your threat to make homeschooling illegal and the asinine notion that we should hold them to a higher standard, and then maybe we can discuss appropriate accountability measures.
Everyone else has already made the salient points. No Democrat should support the illiberal notion that the state or federal government has the right to annually test your children's diet, sleep schedule, and personal and household hygiene -- even though, like education, these things have a huge impact on life-long success. Parents have a right to be left alone barring some evidence to the contrary. The fact that you've had to deal with crazy homeschoolers in a past job doesn't really hold much weight.
8:54 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
"Homeschoolers also don't take any public funding, but have to pay for testing that serves no purpose."
Is that true? I thought you received a stipend from the district because you were not using a spot, but you are still "represented" by your home district. Is that incorrect?
Jun 20, '07
“House Republicans trying to undermine Oregon schools” This statement is wrong; Democrats controlled by the unions are undermining the kids of this state. Home schooled kids get a great education and they need to be supported, this is sad to see. My kid is only two and she knows all of her shapes, she can count to 10 and knows her alphabet and she barely talks, tell me home schooling doesn’t work. Public education is terrible and it’s obvious Kari Chisholm hasn’t been in a public school class room lately. Kari, I urge you to go to a school, any school and see what’s going on and maybe you might have second thoughts about this. Public schools need to have a major overhaul and it needs to be for the kids. The current program is old and broken and it needs to be fixed, private schools run circles around any Oregon public school. Unions control the schools not the teachers, and we have lots of bad teachers in the system. I applaud anyone who is trying to FIX the problem, the Gov thinks that we need to throw more money at schools and things will get better, they don’t get better till you change the program. The home schooling kids are going to test much higher then the public schooled kids…no brain’r there
Jun 20, '07
“House Republicans trying to undermine Oregon schools” This statement is wrong; Democrats controlled by the unions are undermining the kids of this state. Home schooled kids get a great education and they need to be supported, this is sad to see. My kid is only two and she knows all of her shapes, she can count to 10 and knows her alphabet and she barely talks, tell me home schooling doesn’t work. Public education is terrible and it’s obvious Kari Chisholm hasn’t been in a public school class room lately. Kari, I urge you to go to a school, any school and see what’s going on and maybe you might have second thoughts about this. Public schools need to have a major overhaul and it needs to be for the kids. The current program is old and broken and it needs to be fixed, private schools run circles around any Oregon public school. Unions control the schools not the teachers, and we have lots of bad teachers in the system. I applaud anyone who is trying to FIX the problem, the Gov thinks that we need to throw more money at schools and things will get better, they don’t get better till you change the program. The home schooling kids are going to test much higher then the public schooled kids…no brain’r there
Jun 20, '07
TJ, it is true if the homeschooler signs up with their local ESD, and also takes advantage of some home school options offered by the ESD. If so, then the local school district gets to claim some partial credit ADMW for that portion of the time that the district is schooling the homeschooler. But many if not most homeschoolers don't participate in any district school classes.
Harry
9:27 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
There's a false premise in Kari's (et al) arguments. He's assuming that the "bad" religious zealot homeschoolers aren't giving their kids a good education by his standards. He's probably right about that. However, he also assumes that means that they will do relatively poorly on standardized tests and that's where that train jumps the rails.
Teach your kid to read and do basic arithmetic (and then basic algebra when they are older), provide some basic reading materials on other subjects and they will do well enough on the standardized tests used in the public schools. A lot of public school kids aren't getting a good education by Kari's standards either. I'd be willing to be that most of those people who "don't believe in evolution" were educated in public schools.
I'm put off by the dismissive tone of the "education experts" here who don't have kids and who appear to see these questions only as one more battle about political advantage.
Public schools don't work well for many kids on the behavioral margins, including my quiet, serious child for whom the chaos of public middle school was overwhelming. Flexible home schooling was literally a lifesaver for my family, as was the flexible public system that allowed my 15-year-old to attend community college after some time at home spent recovering from the middle school experience.
I think our efforts are much better spent improving the public education system rather than making life more difficult for home schoolers.
Jun 20, '07
"I thought you received a stipend from the district because you were not using a spot, but you are still "represented" by your home district. Is that incorrect?"
As to the stipend...not sure what you mean, but the homeschooler family gets no money whatsoever from the district.. (kinda like a voucher?...there would be legal issues, since the homeschooler families could/would use this money for religious instruction.) ... although they may get some services viaa the ESD.
The credit/stipend is only paid to the local district from the State School Funds, via the local district getting to take credit for the partial time they are educating that student.
Harry
Jun 20, '07
"“House Republicans trying to undermine Oregon schools” This statement is wrong; Democrats controlled by the unions are undermining the kids of this state."
Well, there's your right-wing drivel...
"no brain’r there"
nuff said...
9:51 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
I'm pretty much done with this conversation, but I want to clarify my opinion on three points, since it's been mischaracterized:
I don't think that homeschooling should be made illegal. I was merely referencing an argument advanced by others.
I don't think that current systems of standardized testing are very good at all. That's just the framework we're living in today.
One more time: I think quite a few homeschoolers are educating their kids just fine. But I'm worried about the ones that aren't. Pardon the reference, but we shouldn't leave any child behind.
My point is that responsible homeschoolers should welcome accountability, since it reduces the political strength of those making that argument. And since the current system of accountability is based on standardized testing, they should live by the same metrics. (And yes, of course, we should improve those accountability systems. Duh.)
Jun 20, '07
"I was merely referencing an argument advanced by others."
I like that clarification...I'll have to file that one away for future use myself!
"(And yes, of course, we should improve those accountability systems. Duh.)"
I agree with the accountability aspect. I think that the Chalkboard Project (BlueOregon Premium Sponsor, see ad above) has been focused on accountability for a few years, and are pushing some of the above legislation. Too bad that legislation is going nowhere in this session... anybody have a read as to why?
Harry
PS ChalkBoard sez: "Oregonians want schools to spend money wisely, so as much as possible gets to the classroom. Chalkboard's ideas add accountability to increase student achievement. Learn more at the Chalkboard Project."
Jun 20, '07
... but there's no question at all that the average home schooler is getting a far better education than the average schoolbound kid.
The "average home schooler" most likely has above average parents. It is probably safe to say that the vast majority of students in public schools lack parents with the required skills to teach them at home or the financial resources to do so.
Jun 20, '07
The home schooling kids are going to test much higher then the public schooled kids
Duh--- they don't have a mass of special education kids (which take a lot of money to integrate) or esl kids (ditto) or poor kids (with attached social issues)to attend to. Those kids take a lot of time and money and tend to lower the curve on standardized testing. Otherwise, public kids stack up same or better.
Fix the base economic situation of the state/nation (that is, better jobs and better social services) and the quality of education will rise. That's the only "fix" that matters in the long run.
Jun 20, '07
The "average home schooler" most likely has above average parents. It is probably safe to say that the vast majority of students in public schools lack parents with the required skills to teach them at home or the financial resources to do so.
Yes, precisely. And your point is? Should we not therefore tend to our knitting and deal with the issues in the public schools before worrying about increasingly intrusive measures designed to force what is WORST in the public schools (testmania) onto homeschoolers?
Kari claims to be worried about the kids failed by homeschooling and wants to institute testing so we can find them and then .... what? Force them into the schools? Cause there sure aren't any kids failing to get a basic education there, eh?
Look, I'm an advocate for public schools, just like I'm an advocate for public libraries. But I don't think we should be eying people with suspicion because they choose to buy books for themselves rather than using the public libraries or because they band together in book groups and share books among themselves instead of using the libraries. Rather, we should simply be glad that they are willing to pay taxes and support the libraries while not themselves placing any demands on them.
Jun 20, '07
The "average home schooler" most likely has above average parents. It is probably safe to say that the vast majority of students in public schools lack parents with the required skills to teach them at home or the financial resources to do so.
Yes, precisely. And your point is? Should we not therefore tend to our knitting and deal with the issues in the public schools before worrying about increasingly intrusive measures designed to force what is WORST in the public schools (testmania) onto homeschoolers?
Kari claims to be worried about the kids failed by homeschooling and wants to institute testing so we can find them and then .... what? Force them into the schools? Cause there sure aren't any kids failing to get a basic education there, eh?
Look, I'm an advocate for public schools, just like I'm an advocate for public libraries. But I don't think we should be eying people with suspicion because they choose to buy books for themselves rather than using the public libraries or because they band together in book groups and share books among themselves instead of using the libraries. Rather, we should simply be glad that they are willing to pay taxes and support the libraries while not themselves placing any demands on them.
11:25 a.m.
Jun 20, '07
Geeze,
You guys that are hacking Kari up on this one could answer one basic question.
Does the state have any duty to ensure that ALL of Oregon's children meet some basic standard of readiness to be tossed into the "Free Market" at adulthood?
<hr/>My daugther and son-in-law are homeschooling their two boys. The oldest is four and already has a vocabulary that surpasses that of over 90% of Oregonians (I'm guessing). Not surprising since both parents are honors graduates.
Young Master Miles would have no problem in meeting some minimal state madated proficiency standards. In fact it would be a minor inconvenience for the boy to take the test and for the parents to send it in to the designated regulatory body. The state could then be confident that this child is ready to enter society as an asset rather than as a liability.
So too with the few religious home schoolers. They have every right to teach their children that the world rests on the back of a large turtle, and that Magic is the explanations for all of life's difficult questions, as long as said children can accurately answer questions based on an actual science based curriculum.
If that's too intrusive.....Too bad.
Jun 20, '07
Most home schoolers are affluent and rich enough to do home schooling. That's why the R's want it de-regged because many R's are home schoolers as well as rich - with money and Bibles. Its very simple - the R's want to upgrade the rich while beating the poor into submission. What a bunch of mean sprited, ubiquitous, and propaganda spewing people. It really sounds like the R's are getting so bored with their jobs this session that they have to do something mean to keep themselves busy - and they do that by being less than Christian and doing what they are doing with these education bills.
Jun 20, '07
Kari writes: My point is that responsible homeschoolers should welcome accountability, since it reduces the political strength of those making that argument.
I think homeschoolers have a lot of distrust towards state measures of accountability, similar to the distrust that charter schools have. Many of those pushing accountability don't like charter schools or they want to see homeschooling outlawed. I think your initial comments (now disavowed) just exacerbate that distrust.
Pat Ryan asks: Does the state have any duty to ensure that ALL of Oregon's children meet some basic standard of readiness to be tossed into the "Free Market" at adulthood?
I think the state has a responsibility to make sure that kids are receiving some form of education -- either public, private, or home-schooled -- but any attempt to regulate quality or content beyond that is a mistake. Requiring a home-schooled 10 year-old to pass a 5th grade proficiency test opens a can of worms: Who decides what is on that test? Who decides what that child is required to know? If the child is a concert-level pianist but struggles with basic science, should the state take away the piano?
Personally, my two young children will always go to public schools. I have neither the time, skill, or desire to home-school them, and I value the community ethics and diversity of public schools. But I would never, EVER argue that society has the right to dictate to another family what they do and do not teach their children.
Jun 20, '07
Pat Ryan does bring up an interesting point: Depending on where you live, 40%-60% of those homeschooling their children have never attended college.
Yet 80%+ Oregon public school teachers have a Master's degree.
Just sayin' ....
Jun 20, '07
Home schoolers are not, generally, given tax payer funding to be home schooled. Public schools are. I think there should definitely be some restrictions and accountability in the public system (charters and vouchers included - not that we have vouchers now).
Sometimes I wonder if we are throwing good money after bad with what I've seen in my son's public elementary school. But then, teachers and administration are hampered by all sorts of things. If there was a simple answer, it would have been solved long ago.
This much I can say, the testing is absolutely necessary so that we can compare school to school. But I can see issues with the tests themselves as they are time consuming. Plus they don't really give the teacher a lot information on individual students or if they are getting off track. But then the state tests may not be aligned with a curriculum package. So now teachers have to INDIVIDUALLY add other stuff to the packaged curriculum to meet state testing requirements. And the funny thing is: the state test is designed BY THE STATE! But to do it efficiently, you would need, in the minimum, a state-wide curriculum to align with a well designed test (designed by the state and thus expensive). But off the shelf tests may not align with state standards.
I think I'll just quit now.
Jun 20, '07
I see the above thread and scratch my head. Republicans - and particularly the rich Republicans who set policy for the party - would like to terminate free public schools and replace them with some sort of "user fee" public education system. The Republican attack on "free public education" is the evil that we Dems need to struggle against. I don't give a damn whether or not somebody - regardless of their political or philosophical or religious beliefs - wants to educate their children at home. In my family it would have been a huge financial burden to have either my wife or me quit our jobs to home school our kids, so it never was a consideration. But you see home schooled kids go on to graduate from Harvard at age 14 or whatever, and then head off to MIT to study physics. And I really don't care whether home schooled children are tested. Ultimately, they will be tested by life itself. The good ones will succeed, the bad ones will fail. Kind of like what everyone else faces in their life regardless of whether they were home schooled or not.
The (unmentioned) skeleton in the closet in many of these threads on public education are the teacher's unions. I assume (but do not know for sure) that every home schooled kid is a few less bucks available to pay teachers. I fear that money rather than public or philosophical policy is at the base of some of these dicussions.
3:25 p.m.
Jun 20, '07
I don't think I ever fully appreciated precisely how much of a statist Kari really is until I read his comment on home schooling.
In fact, I was amused that he trapped himself in his own argument, seeming, by parallel, to call for government inspecting households to ensure adequate child nutrition and sanitary conditions.
But I have to say I am pleased that the many true liberals among you (as opposed to statists) correctly saw the illiberalism in Kari's view and called him on it.
Little wonder he quickly exited the convesation .... "I'm pretty much done wih this converstaion..."
I guess he allowed his true colors to shine through, and was a bit uncomfortable when everyone could see them.
3:39 p.m.
Jun 20, '07
There needs to be some form of testing to ensure that the kids are indeed being home schooled and are receiving an education.
My sister was home schooled, so I have no problem with parents doing that. We've been teaching our daughter over the past few years, and she is more than ready to start school this fall.
Of course kids in home schooling are going to do well if they have people who are educated enough to teach the kids. It's often times one-on-one education. You know where your kid needs help. You know where they struggle. You can build their education into the entire day. Teachers in a public school setting just can't do that. They have an entire class of kids for a maximum of about 6 hours.
But there is a requirement that kids attend school. If that's going to be at home, great. I'm sure there are parents out there and organizations you can join that will help you to give your child(ren) a wonderful education. However, there needs to be some way of showing that the kids are indeed being taught and that they are learning what they should be learning (I'm talking about math, reading, etc.).
6:22 p.m.
Jun 20, '07
In fact, I was amused that he trapped himself in his own argument, seeming, by parallel, to call for government inspecting households to ensure adequate child nutrition and sanitary conditions.
Um, actually, in the case of homeschooled children I'd support mandatory check-ins by social workers on those kids to make sure that they're getting adequate nutrition.
Public and private school kids get that kind of supervision at school every day. Don't think for a minute that teachers don't notice if a kid is malnourished, beaten, or sent to school without proper clothes and cleaning.
Little wonder he quickly exited the convesation .... "I'm pretty much done wih this converstaion..." I guess he allowed his true colors to shine through, and was a bit uncomfortable when everyone could see them.
Nope, perfectly comfortable with my thoughts. (And despite what Miles said above, I haven't disavowed any of my comments. Just clarifying what my views are.)
I'm done, because I'm having a busy day.
Jun 20, '07
"It costs roughly $1 million to do six audits"
Got to love it.
That asinine cost probably came from COSA.
The Confedartion of Oregon School Administartors who claimed that CIMCAM didn't cost hardly anything.
CIMCAM, the 15 year Democrat crime against our public schools.
The biggest undermining in the history of Oregon public education.
Jun 21, '07
Don't think for a minute that teachers don't notice if a kid is malnourished, beaten, or sent to school without proper clothes and cleaning.
Kari, if that were true then we would have very few cases of long-term abuse and childhood hunger. Unfortunately, we have lots of cases of long-term neglect. Teachers do a great job catching some of these cases, but they don't come anywhere close to catching them all -- and we shouldn't expect them to.
I'd support mandatory check-ins by social workers on [home-schooled] kids to make sure that they're getting adequate nutrition.
Wow. Wow! Rob Kremer was exactly right, you are no liberal if this is your view. It reflects a big brother view of government that's distressing on so many levels. I think the only way to drive the point home is to ask this: If you lived in Kansas, and home-schooled your child because you did not want him to be taught creationism in the classroom or be subjected to "voluntary" prayer at school or be chastised by his teachers and classmates for not attending church regularly, does that give the state of Kansas the right to regularly search and inspect your home to determine if you are a fit parent?
We should all shout a resounding "NO!", but given your above viewpoint I can't see how you can answer anything but "yes." So I guess at this point I'm hoping that you will disavow your statements, because otherwise you have publicly expressed a pretty dangerous line of thinking.
Jun 21, '07
I'm a homeschooler and a Democrat. Do you realize that fundamentalist Christian (or any other kind of) private schools have NO state-mandated testing or "accountability," but homeschoolers DO? We just want equity under the law. The abuse argument is baloney.
6:58 p.m.
Jun 21, '07
I think that Kari jumped the shark with the nutrition and abuse inspection. That's a whole other level of intrusion.
As both Miles and Rob point out, this is a "where do you stop" kinda question.
I don't want a state health inspector coming around weekly to check for fungus between my toes........
Jun 21, '07
No worries, Pat! Your fungus between your toes is safe.
It is the fungus between the home school age kiddies that Kari wants those state health inspectors checking out.
Harry
Jun 25, '07
Most homeschooling families are AFFLUENT? Most homeschooling families have gifted parents?
I’m a homeschooling parent, sitting in a 1100 square foot home, driving a neon that is on it’s last legs. Most homeschooling families I know are ONE income. That doesn’t allow for much affluence. Many of us are living in smaller houses, driving older model cars, living paycheck to paycheck. We live on a budget. We try not to use credit cards and live responsibly so that our children will get the point “live within your means”. Why do we do this? Why don’t we dump out kids on the public school system and have a duel working parent household? Because we want MORE for our kids. Not more stuff, but more opportunities for their lives.
Can they be well educated in the public system as it stands? Not without a ton of parental involvement, and if you’re going to be that involved ( i.e your kids are in school for 6-8 hours a day and yet they come home with more work to do at night where you need to sit down and stay up late with them to finish the work they couldn’t do in 6-8 hours because the system’s a mess) well, you might as well bite the bullet and be super involved—Try homeschooling! Homeschoolers put their families--their children--ahead of luxuries because of our focus. We’re not religious-wacko- right winged extremists. On the contrary we love our kids, and we want out kids to grow up with the best tools for them to prosper in whatever their chosen fields are. We want them to be independent thinkers. We want them to think outside the box, not be spoon fed information to pass tests.
I crossed paths with women this week who homeschooled, met her in a museum in a whole other state. She was very liberal, where I’m more on the conservative side. We got into a discussion about how much we both value homescooling and how it refocuses our families, how close knit our families are, how we are both complemented because our children are thoughtful, intelligent in their decision making and polite to others. I said “I know we come from different backgrounds, but we have this thing HOMESCHOOLING in common, where we put our kids and our families first, and if everyone in this country did that…wouldn’t things be different?” Her eyes filled with tears as she nodded in agreement. You bet, things would be very different.
<h2>Please don’t compartmentalize us. We all come from different places, but we all share a singular goal-to better our children’s lives…and maybe our country’s future in the process.</h2>