Newsflash: Portland Has Nice Drivers
Kudos to Loaded Orygun for posting this story yesterday. The Oregonian picked it up today. AutoVantage has placed Oregon at the bottom of it's list of reports of road rage. Here at Blue Oregon, we have to wonder whether the city with highest reports, Miami, was a direct result of having George Bush as President and Jeb as Governor. Anyhow, discuss.
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May 16, 2007
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May 16, '07
I really like the concept of "Job" as Governor of Florida. It just seems appropriate.
May 16, '07
The idea that Portland has "nice" drivers is hilarious. Portland has some of the worst drivers I've ever encountered in my near 50 years of driving. I learned to drive on the streets of Los Angeles, drove in New York, Boston, Paris, Amsterdam, Chicago and few other large metropolitan areas. I don't doubt the "niceness" of the drivers, but I have serious doubts about their intellect driving in heavy traffic - no signalling lane changes, braking for no apparent reason, braking every block because it is polite to slow down at unsignaled intersections like those along Highway 43. Merges in Portland are accomplished by going to the end of the on ramp and turning left. People don't allow drivers to merge adding to the congestion and general sport of driving. I "hate" driving in Portland. People in Portland seem to have two functioning speeds - slow and slower. The accidents I see near my house (right off Highway 43) tax my imagination. I'd rather take my chances on the unregulated streets of Mexico City than here (or Seattle for that matter). I'd take road range accompanied by driving skills over politeness and sheer driving idiocy any day.
7:15 p.m.
May 16, '07
Oops, Jeb. Fixed.
May 16, '07
"People don't allow drivers to merge"
"Merge"? That's rude. There's no merging. I'm not going to let you in. That's taking cuts. Go to the back of the line. Everyone go to the back of the line. Yes, everyone wait off the freeway until each and every one of you can get on the freeway at the end of the ramp.
And another thing, the left lane is the best lane to go slow,, and stay next to trucks. Other people just will just have to drive my speed or pass on the right.
That's the polite way.
May 16, '07
Whether my comment is pertinent depends on where the niceness of Portland drivers is supposed to be directed. So far, everyone has discussed courteousness to other drivers. I sold my car when I moved here, and I get around town by foot, bicycle and Trimet. Mostly by foot. If the object of the reported niceness is other drivers, I can't speak to that, as I've only driven in Portland a few times via Flexcar. However, I have a lot of experience here as a pedestrian. Portland has the most well-behaved drivers of any city I've ever lived in. I can cross the streets at intersections, as I'm supposed to be able to, with nearly complete confidence that drivers will behave as they're supposed to. It's wonderful, on the whole.
11:26 p.m.
May 16, '07
Portland has the most well-behaved drivers of any city I've ever lived in.
I agree. I took up bike commuting last year and have had basically no problems with cars. The odd thing is that it's the out-of-state drivers you have to watch out for, mostly because they aren't used to driving next to bikes nor do they seem to "see" bikes on the road.
99.9% of the time I would say that drivers in Portland are extremely courteous.
May 17, '07
"Courteous Portland Drivers" is a huge lot of bull if you ask me. I can not go driving anywhere without at least 3 drivers during the drive being 'offended' by my lawful driving. Maybe it is because I follow the law to the letter and drive the speed limit, observe the basic rules, and keep a safe distance between me and the car in front of me? Many times I get the finger from someone who is offended by me driving the legal limit or have someone get out of their car and hit/kick my car in anger because I didn't speed thorugh a traffic light when it is yellow.
Courteous Drivers in Portland? Give me a break!
May 17, '07
Portland drivers are more courteous than most probably, but they make up for that with extreme stupidity. Off the top of my head a good example of this is morning rush hour 84 East. Watch all the people cut up in the right lane and then jam over in order to get into the one lane that leads to I-5 North. Happens every day, I don't let the fuckers in anymore, but hundreds do it just the same. I think we get a lot of rural drivers who don't drive the roads around town regularly. Portland is small enough where they think they can get away with it, and they can't.
8:35 a.m.
May 17, '07
Eric J:
You read my mind. That's exactly my experience.
9:28 a.m.
May 17, '07
After grad school, I drove a Broadway Cab for a year or so from '95-96. In that year, which coincided with the growth of the Pearl and the increased use of cell phones, I watched the changes on the road. Things got decidedly less hospitable. Add the SUV flood in the late 90s, the near ubiquity of cell phones, and the steadily worsening traffic, and the roads have gotten especially inhospitable. I don't doubt drivers are still better here than elsewhere--Portland's hallmark is civic responsibility--but the real lesson is that the roads are more nasty by far than they were a decade ago.
(My lefty, nanny-state suggestion: ban cell phones in cars and assess a "drivers tax" for all non-commercial SUVs at registration.)
May 17, '07
To Eric J. and jenni.
We all have made a mistake to two while driving that's so stupid it angers someone to the point that they'll honk or flip us off.
But if every time I hopped in my car I managed to piss off "at least 3 drivers," I'd start to wonder if maybe the problem wasn't my own bad driving.
10:01 a.m.
May 17, '07
I'm not talking about people who make a mistake or two. The people I'm talking about are not only bad drivers behind me, but after they pass and go along their way, they continue to be bad drivers.
I'm talking about people who ride my ass when I'm driving 55 mph in a 55 mph zone.
Or honk at me because I'm in the left lane doing the speed limit when I need to be because there's a left exit coming up.
Or those who ride my ass when I'm in the Lloyd Center exit because I'm only doing 55 and they want to use the lane to pass everyone on the freeway.
Or those who honk at me because I won't punch it through a light that's just turned red in a left turn lane.
Or whip in and out of traffic in spaces not big enough for their vehicles.
Or flips me the finger because I stopped at the line to allow people to cross at a marked cross walk. They then pull into the other lane and speed through, coming close to hitting a pedestrian.
One of my favorites are people who ride my ass so close I can't see their bumper because they want to use the far right lane to pass so they can continue driving 70+ in a 55 zone.
I'm a good driver. I use my turn signal. I leave good gaps between me and the car in front of me. Unless I'm unable to (wet roads, car up my butt, etc.), I stop at yellow lights as required by law. I'm rarely more than a few miles over the speed limit). I've never even had a warning, let alone a ticket. And I've never been in an accident. The only dents in my car are from people throwing their car doors into my car or bumping my bumper in a parking lot and taking off.
People get so aggressive when they're driving that they don't know how to handle someone in front of them "only" doing 57 in a 55 mph zone. Or someone who actually follows the traffic light laws. Or actually gives the pedestrian their legal right-of-way.
May 17, '07
Pat.
I have had no tickets/citations in my driving life and passed my drivers test with 100% correct on it. I can honestly say I have not made any legal and/or common sense offenses while driving. I am never in a hurry and never distracted when I drive - those who are tend to become angry. I encourage others to file a report with the cops and/or a lawyer if they feel that I have made any transgretion(sp) upon their driving lives. I do this becuase driving is a privilage - not a right.
May 17, '07
Pat.
I have had no tickets/citations in my driving life and passed my drivers test with 100% correct on it. I can honestly say I have not made any legal and/or common sense offenses while driving. I am never in a hurry and never distracted when I drive - those who are tend to become angry. I encourage others to file a report with the cops and/or a lawyer if they feel that I have made any transgretion(sp) upon their driving lives. I do this becuase driving is a privilage - not a right.
10:43 a.m.
May 17, '07
After reading Eric's and Jenni's comments, my only question is this... How bad must it be in Miami?
May 17, '07
I'm really glad I sold my car.
May 17, '07
To add to Jenni's last post...
Not too long ago, a guy made a dent in the top of my car with his fist because (in his angry eyes) I was taking too long at a drive through bank ATM...
May 17, '07
While you'll encounter jerks anywhere, I find most Portland drivers to be courteous. There IS a lot more road rage and rage in general in our society in the past few years. Everyone seems to be in SUCH a huge hurry. I tend to avoid expressways simply because having folks fly past me can be unnerving. I didn't own a car for years when I lived in Portland, but out in Gresham it's just not as feasible for me due to the bus schedules. I've driven in all but 3 three states. My experience in Miami, Kari, would turn your hair white--I was literally forced off the road twice by folks who decided they simply wanted to be where I was and moved into the space occupied by my car. And while some of the road rage folks here may beat on your car (which is NOT acceptable behaviour in any form), I rarely hear of road rage shootings here. In Tulsa, where my folks live, you can regularly have guns pointed at you (if not actually shot). Oh, and if you ever drive down there---yellow lights don't exist for practical purposes and you need to count to 3 before proceeding on a green light or you'll be t-boned by someone running the red light. And pedestrians have no rights at all. Like everything, I guess it depends on your personal experiences. Interesting...
May 17, '07
Portland drivers are polite, which is mostly good. the downside:
I've seen a line of cars wait through an entire green light while the lead car driver failed to drive off.
I've seen slugs in the fast lane who were not reminded that they should move the hell over [oops, my east coast past is surfacing].
May 17, '07
Jenni Simonis I'm talking about people who ride my ass when I'm driving 55 mph in a 55 mph zone. JK: Perhaps you are unaware that speed limits are set with the knowledge that people will drive at almost 10 over (the ususal minimum threshold for issuing tickets in our area). The DOT people know this and set speed limits accordingly. So do most drivers, so the real limit is a bit less than 10 over.
When you merge into traffic on a freeway you need to match the speed of traffic then find a gap. If you are not matching the actual speed, over the limit or not, you cannot do a safe merge.
Jenni Simonis Or honk at me because I'm in the left lane doing the speed limit when I need to be because there's a left exit coming up. JK: Ever see those “slower traffic keep right” signs. They have meaning. In many states you can get a ticket for driving in the left lane.
Jenni Simonis Or those who ride my ass when I'm in the Lloyd Center exit because I'm only doing 55 and they want to use the lane to pass everyone on the freeway. JK: Isn’t 55 a bit fast for the exit - there is a stop light at the end of it?
Jenni Simonis Or whip in and out of traffic in spaces not big enough for their vehicles. JK: I seldom see people do that. Perhaps the problem is that you are trying to force people to drive below the prevailing speed?
Jenni Simonis Or flips me the finger because I stopped at the line to allow people to cross at a marked cross walk. They then pull into the other lane and speed through, coming close to hitting a pedestrian. JK: I too stop for peds and have NEVER angered another driver. On a street with more than one lane in each direction, stopping in the lane closest to the ped is actually dangerous as you found out, because cars in the other lane cannot see the ped. (That is one way that marked crosswalks can get peds killed.)
Jenni Simonis People get so aggressive when they're driving that they don't know how to handle someone in front of them "only" doing 57 in a 55 mph zone. JK: Its because you are holding up traffic by going well below the real speed limit. See above.
Thanks JK
12:45 p.m.
May 17, '07
It's quite true that more violent road rage isn't near the problem here. In the Houston area it was pretty bad, as they had shootings, stabbings, people violently forced off the roads, and more.
Ours isn't near as bad, but it's not anywhere close to being good.
I drive on Burnside, Stark, Division, I-84, and I-205 a lot. Those are the roads I'm on several times a week. With the exception of 205, I'm on those roads pretty much daily.
The ones that drive crazy are the line of cars that continue making left lights after their light is already red. That seems to be a really big problem along Division and Burnside.
1:01 p.m.
May 17, '07
So do most drivers, so the real limit is a bit less than 10 over.
It doesn't matter that they know people will go 10 mph over. Cops start giving out tickets around 6-7 mph over the limit. The law states the highest speed is whatever the sign says, regardless of what assumptions may be.
Ever see those “slower traffic keep right” signs. If you'd notice, I specifically said when there was a left exit coming up. Meaning you have to be in the left lane to exit. Being in the right lane would mean you'd have to cut off lanes of traffic in order to exit.
Isn’t 55 a bit fast for the exit - there is a stop light at the end of it? No, it's an exit lane that probably goes for 3/4 of a mile or so before it actually cuts off from the freeway for the exit. It's just like a fourth lane of I-84. The problem is that people like using it to cut around the traffic backups that regularly happen where I-84 ends and splits into I-5 north & south. The speed is 55 in the long part where it's like a fourth lane (but clearly marked with the more solid dashed line that shows it to be an exit lane). It becomes a lower speed when it separates from the freeway.
Perhaps the problem is that you are trying to force people to drive below the prevailing speed? No. I see them doing it constantly. Not just around me, but around other cars on the freeway. Around cars that are doing well over 10 mph higher than my 55-60 speed. They slip in and out of spaces not much larger than their own vehicle, which is extremely dangerous at such speeds. If one vehicle suddenly had to slow down, you'd have a pile up. This is extremely common on I-205 and I-84, which I drive on regularly.
On a street with more than one lane in each direction, stopping in the lane closest to the ped is actually dangerous as you found out, because cars in the other lane cannot see the ped. I didn't say I was in the lane closest to the ped. I just said I was in one of the lanes and the person sped around me to the other lane. Often times I'm actually in the lane further away from where the ped is coming from. We have a number of those crosswalks here in Gresham where you have a solid line you're supposed to stop at that's some feet away from the actual marked crosswalk. I cross several of these every day, including one in front of Gresham HS. I regularly see people speed around stopped cars, fly past stopped cars, and almost hit stopped cars at these crosswalks. Not just me, but on the opposite lane of traffic as well.
Its because you are holding up traffic by going well below the real speed limit. Ask any cop, judge, etc. -- the real speed limit is what is set on the signs. Go higher, you can get a ticket. I follow the law, and I try to keep my speed right around 55 mph. I have a right to do so, since it is the actual, real, legal speed limit. And I shouldn't be harassed when I'm in the furthest right lane for doing so.
May 17, '07
Sorry JK...The speed limit is 55. Thats the law, and I will follow it to the letter. If there is a problem with this, find a lawyer and a courtroom who will listen. I have never been ticketed for going 55 in a 55. People who swallow the propaganda you mention (speed limits being set to bogus conditions, ect) are using excuses for lawless behavior and seem more important than they really are. Speed limits are NOT a suggestion.
By the way - My dad worked for ODOT for 40 years. I know for a fact that they set speed limits for safety reasons, not because of the perverse propaganda you spew forth to excuse away your hurried behavior.
May 17, '07
Eric J. People who swallow the propaganda you mention (speed limits being set to bogus conditions, ect) are using excuses for lawless behavior and seem more important than they really are. JK: Propaganda? Get real, I heard that from a PDOT person at a meeting that was considering the setting of speed limits.
Eric J. By the way - My dad worked for ODOT for 40 years. I know for a fact that they set speed limits for safety reasons, not because of the perverse propaganda you spew forth to excuse away your hurried behavior.
JK: Did he tell you the part about lowering the speed limit in anticipation of drivers driving faster? One national highway engineers group advocates setting speed limits at the speed actually traveled by 80% of the drivers. By this standard, most of Oregon’s speed limits are set about 10MPH too slow.
Thanks JK
May 17, '07
Yep...sounds like JK has swallowed the propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Just because they tell you this garbage doesn't make it right, nor does it allow you to excuse away breaking the law. The limit is the law.
I have never gotten a ticket...how about you?
Nice drivers...what a joke...
10:37 p.m.
May 17, '07
Just to prove what I was talking about, I set my cruise to right around 10 mph over as I drove portions of I-84 and I-205 this evening between Troutdale and downtown Oregon City.
I was still passed by the majority of the vehicles on the road. They didn't just crawl past me, they sped by. They were doing at least 15 mph faster than I was, if not more.
Several were whipping in and out of lanes, as the freeways were just congested enough to keep them from being able to speed by in just the left lane (because, heaven forbid, the people in the left lane were only going around 70 in a 55). But it wasn't that heavy of traffic. We didn't leave until after 7, since we wanted to miss the bulk of rush hour.
One vehicle wanted to go fast, but all three lanes of traffic were going too "slow." So he got up behind me, turned on his brights, and then kept inching up on my tail to get me to go faster.
The fact is people are going as fast as they want to go. They do it because they can. With so many cut backs in police, state troopers, etc., they know the likelihood of getting caught is close to zero. The speed limit could be 55 or it could be 75 -- they're not going to slow down. Studies have already shown this. When limits were increased, the speed of traffic stayed the same. When limits were lowered, they still stayed the same. Drivers set their own speed limits.
The problem is they then get aggressive towards other drivers who choose to follow the law. People going 55 mph in a 55 mph zone have every right to be in the far left lane. They aren't "slow traffic" -- they're going the highest speed allowed under law.
That's why I wish we'd greatly increase the penalties for traffic infractions. Keep "warnings" on file for a specified amount of time before they're cleared. Maybe if people actually saw some kind of penalty for breaking the law, they wouldn't do it.
To me, the fines and increases in car insurance (not to mention the safety of me, my family, and those around me), are enough to keep me following the law. Unfortunately, that isn't the case for most people.
May 18, '07
Jenni Simonis One vehicle wanted to go fast, but all three lanes of traffic were going too "slow." So he got up behind me, turned on his brights, and then kept inching up on my tail to get me to go faster. JK: Try what I do in that situation: PULL OVER if you aren’t already in the outside lane.
Jenni Simonis Studies have already shown this. When limits were increased, the speed of traffic stayed the same. When limits were lowered, they still stayed the same. Drivers set their own speed limits. JK: Which is why engineering experts suggest setting the speed limit based on driver’s actual speeds. IE: that speed at which 80% of people drive below.
Jenni Simonis The problem is they then get aggressive towards other drivers who choose to follow the law. People going 55 mph in a 55 mph zone have every right to be in the far left lane. They aren't "slow traffic" -- they're going the highest speed allowed under law. JK: No one has a right to block traffic in the left lane. If I recall you are legally required to pull over if you are blocking traffic.
Jenni Simonis Unfortunately, that isn't the case for most people. JK: Just more evidence that there is something wrong with the law.
Thanks
2:37 p.m.
May 18, '07
"JK: No one has a right to block traffic in the left lane. If I recall you are legally required to pull over if you are blocking traffic."
How can you be blocking traffic if the people behind you have to break the law by going over the speed limit, in order to be "blocked?"
May 18, '07
If you feel the law is wrong - find a lawyer or a judge who will actually listen to your festering propaganda. Better yet - whine about it to your legislator.
Until then - follow the law as it is posted - not as a 'suggestion' to use it as a right to break it.
Sounds like JK is one of those drivers who gets angry way too quickly. I don't pull over for jerks - I just give them the finger right back and smile while doing it. You are not blocking traffic if you drive the limit - No cop with a sense of customer service would ever cite a driver who obeys the law unless the road conditions are bad enough to slow down everybody.
Now lets watch as JK comes back for a final, egalitarian moment of exasperating dialog to this post.
(some people will never get it I guess)
May 18, '07
Well, Joe, that kinda depends on how the law (if any) is actually worded doesn't it?
Thanks JK
May 18, '07
Jenni Simonis writes:
"The problem is they then get aggressive towards other drivers who choose to follow the law. People going 55 mph in a 55 mph zone have every right to be in the far left lane. They aren't "slow traffic" -- they're going the highest speed allowed under law."
No they don't. The left lane is principally for passing, not for cruising. If you are going at the speed limit in the fast lane but holding up the flow of traffic, you can be cited under Oregon Law for violating the "basic rule". I know because I've been ticketed under this back when the speed limits were 65 and I was going 65 in the passing lane. This was the first time I had ever heard of this, but you can look it up easily.
The basic rule says you cannot impede the flow of traffic. It also explicitly says that the left lane on freeways or highways is for passing. It isn't enforced heavily but it is still the rule. I'd advise you against cruising at 55 mph in the left freeway lane. Sooner or later you'll get a ticket for doing so. You do not have the right to drive slower than the flow of traffic on a freeway.
May 18, '07
You do not have the right to drive slower than the flow of traffic on a freeway. JK: She also does not have the right to appoint yourself "law enforcement person". Or to endnger other's safety by causing traffic tie ups.
Thanks' JK
May 18, '07
My aunt beat a ticket for going the speed limit in the left lane. The judge in the case admonished the officer for being too heavy handed and advised the officer that if the person is going the speed limit, you just can't cite them. The basic rule only applies in severly inclement weather.
I, however, have never been cited...how about you?
(lets see how JK responds)
May 18, '07
They are courteous all right. I hate 4 way stops here because everyone is too polite. If you hesitate I'm going. The other day I was coming up Cornell to make a left on Skyline. There was already a car stopped in the opposite direction (west on Cornell) with no other cars in the intersection (4-way). This idiot waited until I came to a stop and then started to wait some more. I took off and turned right in front of him. They were shocked but sorry, it wasn't a drive in the park on Sunday! One thing I can say is the drivers are better here than Seattle. Also to all you 55ers, the left lane is for passing. If you are not passing then GTF over!
4:54 p.m.
May 18, '07
Actually, I've asked police officers, including the police chief in one town, about the left lane rule. As long as you're going the speed limit, they're not going to give you a ticket for going the speed limit in the left lane.
While the left lane may be for passing, it is for passing up to the highest speed limit allowed by law. That's what many drivers don't seem to get. The highest speed allowed by law in the far left lane (or "fast lane") is the same as that in the right lane ("slow lane")-- it's whatever is written on the signs. It doesn't matter if you feel you should be able to go faster -- the law says you can't. And harassing people who are following the law not only makes you guilty of speeding, but you can also get a ticket for the harassment as well.
I very rarely get in the left lane, mostly for either passing those going 50 in a 60 (particularly out in east county where we have a lot of semi trucks using the right and center lanes) or when I have a left side exit coming up.
JK: Try what I do in that situation: PULL OVER if you aren’t already in the outside lane. I'm talking about being in the "slow lane," whether it be on a freeway or a local street. The vehicle that kept riding my tail was doing so in the slow lane. This is a pretty common problem on both I-84 and I-205.
May 18, '07
Jenni:
Since you're new to Oregon, you can be forgiven for asking the local police the wrong questions. You write: "Actually, I've asked police officers, including the police chief in one town, about the left lane rule. As long as you're going the speed limit, they're not going to give you a ticket for going the speed limit in the left lane." Rephrase the question. Ask whether you can be cited under the "basic rule" for impeding the flow of traffic in the left lane even though you are driving at the speed limit. I suspect you'll get a slightly more nuanced answer than you've gotten up to now. Oregon's "basic rule" is a piece of work, but it can bite you in mysterious and unpredictible ways. You won't get cited for driving at the speed limit; you'll be cited for basic rule violations which clearly permit higher than posted speed limits in certain conditions.
As I say, I've actually been cited and fined for a basic rule violation on I-5 near Eugene when I was going 65 mph in a 65 mph zone. This was in the early '70's. Nevertheless, my defense that I was going the speed limit did not convince the judge that I constituted a traffic hazard under the basic rule. I got a lengthy lecture in the basic rule and its application, and a new appreciation for the perfidy of Oregon law. To the best of my knowledge, the Oregon Statutes haven't changed. I suppose I'll get to learn as my 3rd and last child starts learning to drive this coming summer.
May 18, '07
Oh oh, Jim Karlock and I agree on something.
5:52 p.m.
May 18, '07
I guess compared to some who have been here decades I'm "new," but I have been here seven years. And with my background in working with law enforcement as a journalist, I've learned how to ask them questions.
I asked it almost exactly the way you mentioned. I didn't use the words "basic rule," but I did ask whether it could be considered impeding the flow of traffic in the left lane even if I'm doing the limit (or a few miles above).
They said that occasionally an officer (often times those having a bad day, low on tickets for the month, etc.) will write the ticket. Most won't because it's a waste of their time -- judges often throw it out. Which means not only did they waste time pulling over someone doing the limit (when there's plenty of people out there going much higher), but then there's the court date as well. The ones I spoke with (here and in Texas) said that many times when they did write the ticket they didn't go to the court date and the ticket was dismissed.
They said the chances of getting pulled over were extremely, extremely slim since they have so many other things to worry about besides a driver who is actually going the speed limit.
5:54 p.m.
May 18, '07
In my entire life I've been pulled over twice. Once was when an officer saw my tail light burn out, and he wanted to let me know.
The second time? When I was pulled over to be given a safe driver award. They were given out to drivers who were regularly seen driving safely.
6:01 p.m.
May 18, '07
My last comment on this for now, as I've got some work to do...
Straight from ODOT:
The Basic Rule does not allow motorists to drive faster than the posted speed, nor does it set absolute speeds designated for all conditions.
It lays out that the basic rule is about judging the conditions and determining if the posted speed limit is appropriate, or whether you need to lower your speeds. It very clearly states it isn't about going faster than the posted speed.
May 18, '07
Posted by: Tom Civiletti | May 18, 2007 5:40:40 PM
Oh oh, Jim Karlock and I agree on something.
JK: Oh my god, what!!
Thanks Jk
May 18, '07
Jenni Simonis That's why I wish we'd greatly increase the penalties for traffic infractions. Keep "warnings" on file for a specified amount of time before they're cleared. Maybe if people actually saw some kind of penalty for breaking the law, they wouldn't do it. JK: Can I presume that you apply the same strict standards of law following to these:
Bicyclists, Undocumented workers, Street drugs, Graffiti art, Developers
Thanks JK
May 18, '07
Speed limits, Jim.
8:27 a.m.
May 19, '07
To the best of my knowledge, the Oregon Statutes haven't changed.
I think the confusion comes about because Oregon statutes have, in fact, changed. The basic rule used to be the only rule and all "speed limits" were advisory. That's no longer the case. I'm not sure exactly what rules have become law and when but Congress opened the door with the 55mph speed limit in 1974 and I know the legislature has considered numerous maximum speed limit bills since then.
From the Oregon Driver's Manual:
In addition to the basic rule, Oregon has maximum speed limits inside city limits and on highways. A speed limit is the maximum speed considered safe for the area under ideal driving conditions.
10:03 a.m.
May 19, '07
JK: Ever see those “slower traffic keep right” signs. They have meaning. In many states you can get a ticket for driving in the left lane.
The speed limit on most stretches of highways in France is about 84 mph. That's pretty fast. And, like here, most people go faster. Vast stretches of the Autobahn have no speed limits. Some people drive very fast there, as have I.
What makes these systems work is the principle of lane discipline. The left lane is reserved for passing. This is taken serious by everyone, and is enforced.
As much as it troubles me to agree with Jim Karlock, I think his point is well taken. We don't have lane discipline here. We don't think of driving as sharing the road. People pull onto I-5, and immediately --and inexplicably-- pull into the left lane, and stay there. While they read, drink coffee, and claim their "spot." (Which is why, Jim, you can add all kinds of lanes for traffic --as there are coming into Seattle-- but if people show no discipline in how they use them, traffic gets congested regardless.)
When the speed limit was set at 55 (originally done as an environmental issue, not a safety one) I remember the spot in the Terwilliger Curves where a 60mph sign had still not been replaced (because that stretch slowed the posted speed down from 70mph). It's all rather arbitrary. I don't dispute speed kills, but far, far more dangerous is rude selfish drivers who ignore those around them.
As to Basic Rule, when I moved to Eugene from NY in 1972, there were still several "Basic Rule" signs posted outside of town in lieu of posted speed limits. I was amazed that we were to be treated like adults, given the responsibility to determine what seemed a safe speed to be travelling.
May 21, '07
This former NYer moved to Portland in 2000. You can say what you want about the speed and wrecklessness of NYC area drivers but I give them their props for lane discipline and predictability. Given the overwhelming number of cars, trucks and buses that traverse the various parkways, thruways and expressways (we don't do freeways in NY), the roads are in very good condition (no studs allowed) and they do an excellent job of keeping things moving (a quarter inch of snow brings Portland to a standstill). I echo the frustration of drivers who experience the abundance of OR slopoke left laners. On OR highways, I find that I make better progress and alleviate the frustration by simply avoiding the left laners. Passing on the right is legal on a multi-lane highway and I do it with gusto!
May 24, '07
To Jenni & Eric:
Whether you believe people exceeding the speed limit in the left lane is illegal or not, it is not your right to police the freeways (unless you actually are police officers). If you are truly concerned about safety, you will obey the signs that says, "Slower Traffic Keep Right". Frustrating the hell out of people is not courteous driving & more importantly, it leads to accidents.
The left lane is the fast/passing lane - so if you are not going fast - faster than the rest of the traffic - or passing, please yield to the drivers who are (regardless of your opinion).
If you are in the right lane, you can go as slow as you want as far as I'm concerned. And, drivers should not ride your butt when you're in the right lane - shame on them if they are. They can easily pass you in the left lane, because that's what it's for, and I know you won't be in it. ;)
12:13 a.m.
May 24, '07
I never said that I get into the left lane to police the highways. As I've said, I rarely get in the left lane.
If I am in the left lane, it is because I have to pass someone, or there is a left exit coming up. Otherwise I stick to the center and right lanes. In areas with lots of entrances, I get in the center as a courtesy to those entering the freeway. If there aren't a lot of entrances, I stick with the right lane.
<h2>I stay out of the left lane(s) because I hate people riding my tail. And the further left I go, the more it happens. It still happens in the right lane, but not necessarily as much. Although when it comes to I-84 going west (from about Wood Village until it meets I-5), it doesn't seem to matter -- people ride my tail a lot in the right lane as well. It's like a game of musical lanes.</h2>