Nothing wrong with grassroots democracy is there?

That link demanded registration. Thanks JK

Alex: Nothing wrong with grassroots democracy is there? JK: Of course there is - if it is the other side, then they are corporate lackeys, greedy or just don't care enough about the children (after the gov't has already fully funded the local boondoggles.)

Thanks JK

Taxes are what we pay for civilized society. Oliver Wendell Holmes

Most Counties in Oregon are in a real fix. The solution the Karlocks of the world want to impose is just to forget about the money and slash County services. People should be paying for books anyway, right? And there's no reason little tots shouldn't be charged an admission fee to use the park swingset, is there? And all those social service programs Counties do - TOTALLY UNNECESSARY! ...

Oh yeah, this is BLUE Oregon, not RED Oregon.

Anyway, back to reality. I have two solutions to this loss of funds which, though both politically unrealistic at this time, should be thoroughly pursued:

1. This federal money was sent to timber Counties in major part because all of that federal forest land is not on the property tax rolls. The Counties should demand that all except the most environmentally sensitive of the national forest lands should be sold to private parties and put back on the tax rolls. Alternatively, the Counties should demand that the federal government pay property taxes on these lands.

2. If the federal government doesn't choose to cooperate with this measure, a better solution for Counties than an income tax would be to request the legislature amend the state's property tax laws to allow a commensurate increase in property taxes, rather than a new local income tax.

www.urbanplanningoverlord.blogspot.com

The link does not require registration. At least not after noon, when the entire day's edition is available.

As a Lane County resident, I'm a bit P.O.'d about having this tax effectively thrust upon me and my family. However, I believe the services we all depend on still deserve funding.
Much as we pay $200/month for health insurance so we don't have to pay thousands for specific procedures, we pay a little bit in taxes for services we could not afford individually.

If anyone wants to get into petitions and the like, they ought to be directed at the White House and Congress, not Lane County.

Yeah, Ollie "Three Generations of Imbeciles are Enough" Holmes cared way more about protecting his precious "civilization" from the scummy masses than he did about protecting the rights of individuals from government abuse. Remember what he said in Buck v. Bell about forced sterilization? "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes." A real liberal hero, that guy.

"If you tax too high, the revenue will yield nothing."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

There is a reason we don't have direct democracy, though there are problems with representative democratic forms of government as well.

EXACTLY. We elect people to represent us. If they don't, we're supposed to throw them out. Of course I realize that's the theory and, unfortunately, too commonly not the practice, but what's the alternative? Not, IMHO, ballot initiatives, which are hijacked by highly motivated small groups (and I consider this true on both left and right).

The rationale for even having ballot initiatives seems to be this: those damn elected fools are either corrupt or co-opted by moneyed interests, so We The People need a way to get around them. What we actually get are shoddily drafted initiatives, funded and promoted by small groups, and voters being asked to pass quick judgement on complicated matters of fiscal policy and the like. We're not talking here about the traditional New England town meeting, in a place where everyone knows everyone else.

I've adopted the admittedly extreme approach of refusing to sign ALL ballot initiatives. TO do otherwise would amount to me personally legitimating what I consider a broken, if not simply corrupt, system.

John Napolitano:

"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Bob T:

Gosh, does that mean that if we have all of our income taken in taxation that we'll be 100% civilized?

Bob Tiernan

iIf slavery, Jim Crow and mixed-race marriages were put to popular vote, we would still have slavery and lynchings for blacks marrying whites.

Are you comparing local opposition to a county income tax with support for slavery and legalized lynching? If so, then I’d like to retract my earlier criticism of Justice Holmes' views on forced sterilization of imbeciles: I'm all for it now.

Also, do you have polling to back up the above claim?

I've voted for a lot of taxes in my life. The problem with this one is that it's billed as progressive when in fact it shelters the corporate lackeys and greedy ones. The burden will be born almost totally by individuals, just like the state income tax. Corporations won't pay taxes on out of country sales and they will be very creative about shifting expenses into Lane County to minimize profits. People should remember how these corporations behave: PGE collected years of taxes from rate payers and then never bothered to pass them along to the state. The same kind of thing will almost certainly happen here. The county simply can't afford good auditors and good enforcement, particularly when they're up against companies the size and complexity of Wal-Mart, Target and Home Depot.

When they figure out how to spread the burden in a truly progressive way, they'll get my vote. They really need the money.

That link demanded registration. Thanks.---JK

Chisholm: Regarding site registration... if you don't want to register, visit bugmenot.com for a login.

Huh? The only website linked in the original posting was to the Register-Guard, which I just linked to without any requests for registration. And even if the Register-Guard did want registration, so what? Their choice. JK similarly could require visitors to his own websites to register if he wanted--again, his choice.

The corporate tax burden for Oregon companies is a record low of 6% (give or take a percent depending in how you calculate). So why does the average working Joe have to foot the whole bill?

Oh, that's right - corporations don't use the roads, bridges, clean water, zoning laws, the court system, or depend on an educated middle-class to deliver their goods and services.

My bad - ANOTHER ROUND OF CORPORATE TAX CUTS!!

People gripe about corporation getting away without paying much for the services they receive, but there is another group that gets even more free handouts and that is the non-profits. Many of the non-profits pay for phones, gas, electricty, water, sewage and a host of other services including alarm services. Why shouldn't they be expected to pay a monthly or quarterly fee for fire protection and police protection and maybe a monthly fee for road maintenance? MHW

Why aren't they just forthcoming with us? How much do they really need? 20% of our income? How about 80%? It seems the PERS benefits and lavish vacation packages isn't enough for these people! They want it ALL. Greedy jerks.

lestatdelc:

And in GOP/BushWorld theory, cut taxes = increase revenues, so if you cut taxes to zero, you will have infinite revenue for the state.

Bob T:

Well, no, no one with that view says that. There's a point that is reached on the way down where revenues decline again. But the rates are high enough and have been that lowering them does increase revenues.

But many Repub types shouldn't be for the optimum rate anyway -- unless they want the government to have all of that money. I certainly don't.

lestatdelc:

(smirk)

BobT:

Smirk you.

Bob Tiernan

Thanks, Alex Davies, for reproducing that quote of Oliver Wendell Holmes -- a prime example of what you get with the "for the good of the whole" mentality and with the so-called "living Constitution" doctrine (the classic case being Scott v. Sanford).

Bob Tiernan

OOOOH!!!

Call me an "anti-government zealot" again!.

Steven Maurer:

I wonder if Bob Tiernan also thinks that Thomas Jefferson owning slaves is an utter reputation of the Declaration of Independence. Or the Constitution of the United States.

Bob T:

I've re-read what you're responding to and I see nothing in there that even hints that I would not agree that Jefferson owning slaves is a refutation (not "reputation") of those two founding documents. Nice try.

Now I'll let you reproduce the introduction following an odd comment.

Steven Maurer:

You know how it goes, right Bob? Let's see if I can accurately reproduce your likely commentary...

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Bob T:

Great words. Point here is that I don't see permission there for subordinating individual rights for so-called "group" rights. Not even in Article One.

Steven Maurer:

Obviously BobT doesn't like this "constitution".

Bob T:

Spoken like a true ignoramus whose already lost the argument.

Steven Maurer:

It's filled with this "good for the whole" mentality. It talks about The People. Promoting the general welfare. Securing the blessings of liberty (obviously in conflict with Bush/Republican domestic policies). BobT thinks its Communist. BobT likes King George.

Bob T:

What you don't understand is that "general" is not "specific" and has little if anything to do with squashing individual rights for "the good of the whole". For example, guaranteeing the free enterprise system we have promotes the general welfare without reducing any individual's rights, as does allowing free travel, free speech and so on. I see no contradiction anywhere, but I do when, later on, things like property rights and economic rights were squashed "for the good of the whole", usually meaning more power for government and privileges for the elite and coporate interests whether the progressives (so-called) knew it or not.

Steven Maurer:

Is that about right? Or was that still too liberal to be you?

Bob T:

Didja like the Kelo decision? That was your kind of decision, not mine. Your ilk asked for it and made it possible, for decades leading up to it. Dred Scott, too.

Bob Tiernan

Our Lane County Commissioners approved a county income tax after WE SAID "NO." If you are unhappy about this and want to have your voice heard loud and clear, please join us on Saturday, March 10th from 8am until 5pm for the Official Petition Signing Day at one of the eight sites listed below.

Eugene Elks lodge -- 2470 West 11th, Eugene (near Staples) Econo Lodge -- 1190 West 6th Avenue, Eugene Graffiti Alley -- 675 River Road, Eugene Ray's Food Place -- 25013 Highway 126, Veneta D&D classic Automotive -- 1180 Ivy Street, Junction City Florence Hearth & Patio Shop -- 85295 Highway 101, Florence Emerald Isle Mobile Home Park in Rec Room -- 658 S. 57th, Springfield Immanuel Baptist Church -- 3050 Game Farm Road, Springfield

If you have any questions please contact one of the following: Bob 654-1327 Ben 743-1556 Carol 915-1743 Lisa 515-1017

See you there.

Good luck with your petition drive. I sure hope my county doesn't try to pull this over on us. I think the time has come to put government in this state on a big fat diet. Overpaid money greedy PERS thieves.