Where's Osama?

Hey Ginny,

Why don't you just go piss on the graves of everyone who died on 9/11? How stupid can you be to believe the crap you are spreading?

Here's two links for you: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html and one you need to read here: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm If you can't read, watch this video of WTC7 http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Smoke.avi

I can only imagine the lies and propagnda you are telling friends and family. You need to get fired like Mike Malloy because people in the real world aren't listening to you.

I don't know what's worse: a bunch of ragheads intent on converting us to Islam or killing us (choose one), or a bunch of tin foil hat conspiracy theorists who refuse to give the rag-heads the credit they deserve?

I'm not the first person around to say this, but I'm not mourning September 11th. To be sure, it was a horrible day, and the people who were directly involved will never be the same. For the rest of us, it's just emotional porn.

No, what I'm crying over today is September 12th. The way everyone stood up before the dust had even settled and asked, "What can I do?" Even out in Oregon, people were walking around with nervous ticks thinking that they needed to do something, anything, to help. I'm in tears thinking about the Queen's Foot Guards playing the Star Spangled Banner in England.

What I'm mourning today is how this administration took that sense of civic duty and all that goodwill and not only squandered it, but actively flushed it down the crapper. Having spent most of the time since 2001 living abroad, I can tell you that's what our erstwhile allies are mourning as well.

Mister Pee,

Thanks for the graphic demonstration of how a racist moron's mind works.

Fascinating.

Hey Andy from Beaverton, Bush admitted to secret prisons after denying them.

Be careful what you claim to be an authority.

Hey Andy from Beaverton, Bush admitted to secret prisons after denying them.

Be careful what you claim to be an authority.

if al gore were serving his second term, perhaps i'd be thinking, that's the day it all turned around, the day we asked the muslim world to help us bring terrorists to justice, and seeing that we had been hurt and we needed help, they agreed.

instead, tens of thousands of people have been killed by bush's bully-child notions of foreign policy, and we have thousands more radicalized terrorists to show for it.

this is a sad day indeed.

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't feel any safer now than I did on September 10th. I think the Bush Administration has created a lot more hatred of the U.S. worldwide and that worries me.

Greg - Thanks you for writing exactly what I'm feeling today but couldn't find the words. Well said. Phil - Just to add to what you've already said, not only is there more hatred but the Bush administration has sucked our resources dry with this ridiculous war in Iraq, resources that could have been used in a real defense of our nation in homeland security. Funny they talk about wanting to "defend the homeland" but fail to do what the 9/11 commission suggests - and then makes up a movie about it and puts in on ABC. I'm so depressed today.

Hey Chris, good point. Think Andy is listening? I can't say I buy all that Ginny states - and I HAVE read Crossing the Rubicon, and I HAVE read the Popular Mechanics article. You really DO have to wonder though. Sorry Andy, I am not entirely convinced. I would love to be though.

The Pentagon - the only evidence the Popular Mechanics article sites is the contractor that "holds pieces of flesh in his hands." There did not have to be a plane for their to be bodies. The amout of inconsistencies is simply mind-numbing Andy. I suggest YOU not "piss on the graves" of those who died and START THINKING instead of spewing venom.

I was one of those Americans overseas on 9/11/01. The immediate response was not always what people say: everyone being behind us and all. Not everyone was, but most were. I won't forgot how it changed over the next year.

It doesn't take any conspiracy theory to convict the Bush Administration. One simply has to consider that the 'resident is so closely bound to his friends/business partners in the Bin Laden family that he could not move against Osama. That probably explains why Osama is free today and probably at ease in Pakistan where he has been welcomed to stay as long as he has "peaceful intentions."

if al gore were serving his second term, perhaps i'd be thinking, that's the day it all turned around, the day we asked the muslim world to help us bring terrorists to justice, and seeing that we had been hurt and we needed help, they agreed.

Wow..."perhaps" indeed...

One would think that should go with saying. "Perhaps" the "Muslim world" would take it upon themselves to slap the terrorists down for hijacking their religion. But alas, we havent seen that happen either. Based on the way anti-religion folk here in this country treat Christianity, I guess we have to assume they are all the same, with the same agenda, right?

that should read "go without saying", sorry.

jon, it doesn't go without saying that other countries will work with ours. not all countries deserve co-operation. since bush's response after 9/11 was "which middle eastern children do we bomb (graphic) next? and then (horrifying)? and then? and then?", of course even moderate muslims regard us with suspicion.

a smarter president would have offered countries the law enforcement resources they needed to catch and prosecute terrorists. our very dumb president instead killed a bunch of innocent civilians and said it was our "freedom" they hate.

i agree with you that painting members of any religion with a broad brush, as republicans like mister tee do to muslims, is stupid, pointless, and annoying. i don't engage in it, but i know some educated people consider it a real badge of honor to call all christians names. they're just as stupid as mister tee.

Lets face it. Bin Laden won. He accomplished more than he could have hoped for.

The United States is busy marginalizing every moderate Arab in the middle east. We invaded Iraq, overthrew its secular leader, abolished its secular government and are now in the process of creating a fundamentalist Islamic state closely allied with Iran. The growing power shiite power will force Sunni governments to confront that threat, making cooperation to contain fundamentalist Islam that much more difficult. The possibility that Arab moderates will make peace with Israel is at an all time low.

Bin Laden himself is now a legend. He wanders around the mountains of Pakistan issuing empty fatwahs that we fill up with the menace he could only hope they actually had. He went from a marginalized extremist in the backwater country of Afghanistan to a world leader whose every word demands headlines in the world press.

The United States has sent hundreds of thousands of troops into his backyard where his newly inspired followers can attack them at will. And in the process we create new martyrs and new converts from the friends and family of those martyrs. Bin Laden gloats as he watches us stir the pot in the middle east in ways he never could. He has been branded a "dangerous enemy" of the United States, what higher honor could their be. What more useful title for mobilizing and claiming leadership of the discontented arab street.

Herbert Hoover once called Mother Jones "the most dangerous woman in America". He said it once, Mother Jones repeated it at almost every rally she spoke at for the rest of her life. It was a label she wore as a badge of honor and it made her into a very popular leader of the disenfranchised. The opposite, no doubt, of what Hoover intended.

We lost this battle with bin Laden a long time ago. Its time to start over with something new.

Impressive how angry some of you get when someone questions the 9-11 table of events. How could this have happened? We have never been lied to by shady people in our government, have we?

If nothing else, some 9-11 conspiracy theories merely prove that we have been lied to so many times, we don't believe these people anymore.

Urinating on the graves of the people who died on 9-11? I think that would apply to any politician who tries to use this national tragedy to their advantage.

My wife is from Yugoslavia. They had a whole pile of WTC size disasters, several a day. We delivered the flying bombs that time.

Quit feeling sorry for yourselves. The world didn't change on 9-11, we just realized that it existed.

Ha! I knew that within 5 posts there would be a conspiracy theorist. I am not going to delve into debating merit with a conspiracy theorist because it is tiring and pointless. The point is, it has been 5 years and the fact that the U.S. has picked itself off its knees and kept going is a wonder to behold. However, I am sure that there are some here on Blue Oregon who wish that we would have switched governments like Spain did after the 2004 Madrid train bombings. That chance is in November, until then I am and will always be proud to have been blessed with being born in the freest, greatest nation on the face of the Earth.

Yak - get real. You're right, pieces of flesh and body parts don't necessarily make a plane crash at the Pentagon ... but "marks on the plane wing" and pieces of crew uniforms? Sure, that information as it stands is single-threaded, but what about a freakin' photo of chunks of fuselage on the lawn, not to mention every other bit of evidence?

I swear, it's like some horrendously Pynchonian nightmare around here sometimes.

And if you're going to have a conspiracy theory, at least get the story straight and unify it. Moreover, all these theories seem to involve so many people and groups such that, if I believed in them, I'd be shocked that I didn't get a heads up from Dick Cheney himself.

Bankrolled by the freest, greatest nation on the face of the Earth. And remember- Hizbullah and the Lebanese government are not the same. If you pay attention to all of the 911s we helped to create, you will know " why they hate us."

Poisonous clouds of pollution spread after Israel air strike Lebanese minister says damage was deliberate, causing 'an even bigger disaster than the war itself' By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor Published: 10 September 2006 More people will die as a result of pollution unleashed by Israel's bombing of the Lebanon than perished in the month-long war itself, the Lebanese government believes.

Yacoub Sarraf, its Environment Minister, speaking exclusively to The Independent on Sunday, said last week that a highly poisonous cloud spread over a third of the country - an area that is home to half its people - from a fire in a bombed fuel tank that burned for 12 days.

The same bombing released about four million gallons of oil into the sea, in the largest ever spill in the eastern Mediterranean. He insists that the environmental damage was "deliberately" caused. Experts say that, if this was so, it would constitute a war crime, in breach of both the Geneva Convention and the statute of the International Criminal Court. Israel retorts that any such suggestion is "very ridiculous".

The damage began on 13 July, when Israeli rockets hit a fuel storage tank at the Jiyyeh power station 18 miles south of Beirut. The government managed to repair the damage and prevent an oil spill. But two days later, he continued, the rockets returned, not merely hitting the same tank again - just 25 metres from the sea - but fatally damaging its protective burm, a concrete and earth barrier designed to stop any oil spilling from the tank from reaching the Mediterranean.

"It was definitely deliberate.," he said. "They did not hit the power station, just the fuel storage, and this was the tank that was closest to the sea."

He expects the greatest "catastrophe" from the toxic cloud that was blown by the prevailing wind over Beirut and one-third of the country. Tests have shown, he says, that it contains high levels of poisonous lead and mercury, and highly dangerous PCBs.

"Not only have we been breathing this for a month, but all the agricultural produce has been subjected to it. Even worse, all these poisons will come down with the rain, and some will seep through the soil and give us a polluted water table.

"Then in a couple of years every single citizen in Lebanon will definitely be subjected to poisonous matter in his drinking water." He expected more Lebanese to die from the pollution than the 1,300, overwhelmingly civilians, killed in the war. He added that studies have shown there would be decreased fertility and higher rates of cancer. "This is a bigger disaster even than the war itself," Mr Sarraf said.

A spokesman for the Israeli government said: "We deny the minister's accusations. They seem to be very ridiculous.

"We never deliberately targeted any civilian capacity or place, we only targeted places or facilities relevant to Hizbollah."

More people will die as a result of pollution unleashed by Israel's bombing of the Lebanon than perished in the month-long war itself, the Lebanese government believes.

Yacoub Sarraf, its Environment Minister, speaking exclusively to The Independent on Sunday, said last week that a highly poisonous cloud spread over a third of the country - an area that is home to half its people - from a fire in a bombed fuel tank that burned for 12 days.

The same bombing released about four million gallons of oil into the sea, in the largest ever spill in the eastern Mediterranean. He insists that the environmental damage was "deliberately" caused. Experts say that, if this was so, it would constitute a war crime, in breach of both the Geneva Convention and the statute of the International Criminal Court. Israel retorts that any such suggestion is "very ridiculous".

The damage began on 13 July, when Israeli rockets hit a fuel storage tank at the Jiyyeh power station 18 miles south of Beirut. The government managed to repair the damage and prevent an oil spill. But two days later, he continued, the rockets returned, not merely hitting the same tank again - just 25 metres from the sea - but fatally damaging its protective burm, a concrete and earth barrier designed to stop any oil spilling from the tank from reaching the Mediterranean.

"It was definitely deliberate.," he said. "They did not hit the power station, just the fuel storage, and this was the tank that was closest to the sea." He expects the greatest "catastrophe" from the toxic cloud that was blown by the prevailing wind over Beirut and one-third of the country. Tests have shown, he says, that it contains high levels of poisonous lead and mercury, and highly dangerous PCBs.

"Not only have we been breathing this for a month, but all the agricultural produce has been subjected to it. Even worse, all these poisons will come down with the rain, and some will seep through the soil and give us a polluted water table.

"Then in a couple of years every single citizen in Lebanon will definitely be subjected to poisonous matter in his drinking water." He expected more Lebanese to die from the pollution than the 1,300, overwhelmingly civilians, killed in the war. He added that studies have shown there would be decreased fertility and higher rates of cancer. "This is a bigger disaster even than the war itself," Mr Sarraf said.

A spokesman for the Israeli government said: "We deny the minister's accusations. They seem to be very ridiculous.

"We never deliberately targeted any civilian capacity or place, we only targeted places or facilities relevant to Hizbollah."

Mmmm ... off topic. Delicious.

..if this were so, it would constitute a war crime

Raul,

I've heard that Charlie, the Starkist Tuna will be bringing suit in the World Court against Israel for the environmental damage.

The ACLU will be representing him of course.

Dick Cheney told me about all of this in a private, Oregonian reporters excluded, secret society podcast.

More hard hitting fantasy discussions here at Blue Oregon!!!!

Dems take back the house (their parent's house that is) in '06!!!!!

Got to love freedom of speech.

Dan, you made my day. Thank you.

I think the Miami Dolphin might be interested in that lawsuit as well.

Thanks Greg Diamond. I've been thinking that for a while now. We were united. For a moment, we weren't Democrats, Republicans...or anything else. In that moment, I was proud to be an American (if not a little scared).

I am so pissed at Bush for squandering that opportunity of unity and magnanimity. That tipping point could have been used for so much good, improving diplomatic relations, starting a national volunteer program, just imagine...

Who knows (if) when we will ever have that same atmosphere of good will and unity.

I was hopeful in that day and the next week...not so hopeful anymore.

Zak J:

Please tell me you're joking.

3,000 dead Americans aren't "scabs"....To suggest we should simply forget about them and move on is insensitive and delusional.

We're not talking about a grade school bully: ignore him and maybe he'll leave is not much of strategy for confronting Al Qaeda.

3,000 dead Americans aren't "scabs"....To suggest we should simply forget about them and move on is insensitive and delusional.

Why? How much time are you spending fighting to reduce the nearly 50,000 auto related fatalities every year? And haven't we lost more people than that in Iraq already? What are you doing about that? We have many more kids than that who die every year from preventable disease because they lack proper medical care. Are you standing up to change that?

What makes the 3000 killed on 911 so special to you?

The answer, I think, is that they are useful tools for Republicans' partisan political warfare.

3,000 dead Americans aren't "scabs"....To suggest we should simply forget about them and move on is insensitive and delusional.

Why? How much time are you spending fighting to reduce the nearly 50,000 auto related fatalities every year? And haven't we lost more people than that in Iraq already? What are you doing about that? We have many more kids than that who die every year from preventable disease because they lack proper medical care. Are you standing up to change that?

What makes the 3000 killed on 911 so special to you?

The answer, I think, is that they are useful tools for Republicans' partisan political warfare.

Just for parity's sake, Ross, they're apparently useful tools for the political fighting of many, not just Republicans.

And accidental deaths and disease?

Anyone care for a delightful fruit salad of apples and oranges?

Ross:

If they murder 50,000 Americans in the next attack, would you be willing to acknowledge that Al Qaeda poses a larger threat than automobile accidents?

Beautiful ... and nothing says "constructive discussion" like a sudden swerve to the hypothetical.

I'm opening my beer (Mirror Pond, of course) and popping my popcorn ... this'll be a good show, for sure!

Mr. Tee, I think Greg Diamond's comment above about 9/11 having been reduced to "emotional porn" is spot on. David Sedaris made a similar comment about feeling a little bit cheaper every time the networks queue the theme music by Barber. That about sums it up for me. Public grieving is always going to run the risk cheapening events through staged theatrics. The use and abuse of the dead of 9/11 for political advantage has turned once pure sorrow into histrionics and crocodile tears. Let the dead rest in peace without suffering these final indignities.

And for the record, I didn't call the dead themselves scabs. I said the rest of us--most especially our political leaders--should stop intentionally re-opening our wounds for their own purposes instead of getting on with completing the business 9/11 called to our attention.

I recommend Ecclesiastes (ch. III, v. 1-8) if you need a better authority than me.

Oh, and Tee, your comment, We're not talking about a grade school bully: ignore him and maybe he'll leave is not much of strategy for confronting Al Qaeda had nothing to do with my post.

I said This is a war, not the World Cup, and we need to stop playing for a tie.

But I meant the real 9/11 war--the one in Afganistan.

networks queue the theme music by Barber.

Interesting music--I think the name of the piece is Adagio for Strings.

Reputed to be one of JFK's favorite pieces of music. Then the themesong for one of the hard hitting Vietnam movies--I think it was Platoon. Now they use it for the end of 9/11 specials.

At some point it loses effectiveness.

I wish people would stop saying that 3,000 Americans died on 911. It is not irrelevant that 1,000 of them were foreign nationals. I also wish that we had taken the Taliban up on their offer to turn Ben Laden over if we could show them some proof that he was involved. I'd also like to hear an official explaination of why the Ben Ladens and other Saudis were flown out of the country when everyone else was grounded and Bush was sitting in the school room with that "Oh shit it really happened" look on his face.

"If wishes were fishes, We'd all cast nets in the sea."

If they murder 50,000 Americans in the next attack, would you be willing to acknowledge that Al Qaeda poses a larger threat than automobile accidents?

Sure, if I'm not one of the victims. But there is no evidence that Al Qaeda has the capability to kill that many Americans or is even remotely likely to ever have that capability.

The real threat is that we create a political climate in the world that helps a far larger and more resourceful organization than Al Qaeda to grow to where it can develope that capability. We certainly have made great strides in that direction when we see signs at demonstrations in Britain have gone from "We are all Americans" to "We are all Hezzbollah".

We cannot win the struggle against Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic moderates need to do that. And virtually everything we have done has alienated them from us and, more importantly, weakened and marginalized them in their own communities.

As the Conservative leader in Britain said:

"The danger is that by positing a single source of terrorism - a global jihad - and opposing it with a single global response - American-backed force - we will simply fulfil our own prophecy."

Dan, Young Oregon Voter, Bob,

The point of my post was to illustrate the fact that people in other countries are suffering 9-11 type disasters, and sometimes it is with weapons we either fire or provide. As someone who is pro life ( I hate to tear apart your straw man ) I feel that all human life should be allowed to flourish, and civilian casualties in any conflict is horrendous. An American life does not hold more value than any other life. A border is an artificial construct. If you can compare a innocent human life to a tuna, what does that say about you? Pretty funny, eh? As a retired member of the military I have never found killing an enemy, let alone an innocent, remotely amusing. As you mourn your 9-11, other people are mourning theirs. Get it? Probably not.

Karl Smiley:

The September 11 victims website details 209 foreign nationals who died on September 11th. That would put the number of American victims at just below 2,800. Clearly, it's still a large number of homicide victims whether it's 2,800 or 3,000. Their nationality or citizenship is of trifling importance to me.

Where led you to believe there were 1,000 foreigners?

Also: whatleads you to believe the Taliban were negotiating in good faith? Osama was arguably more powerful than they were, what makes you believe the Taliban had either the willingness or the power to cough him up.

to CE:

I am more than willing to listen and learn. i have seen no pictures of crew or clothing. the pics i have seen of the lawn and "the plane" are not conclusive. I'd love to see where the plane rubbish went. i would be more than willing to investigate if you are able to provide links to pics or other info. thanks, yak

William:

Thank you for the lesson in checking sources. I stand corrected about the number of foreigners killed. Since the towers were the center and symbol of world corporate power, I believed that number when I heard it. My bad.

As to the Taliban, It wasn't relevant whether they were "negotiating in good faith". The whole world was looking at them aghast. They had sent condolences. They had admitted it was a crime. We could have held their feet to the fire with the moral backing of every country in the world and (at that time) almost all their populations too. Even if we had never gotten Ossama (and we never have), he would have remained a nutcase criminal in the eyes of the world. What we did do was elevate him to and equal stature and give him a platform to proclaim his moral superiority. In his wildest dreams he couldn't have expected a response more to his liking.

I believe the administration was thinking more about getting their pipeline through on the cheap and getting their oil man Karzai in charge, than they were thinking about Ossama.

My thoughts:

I was immensely grateful that nothing else happened. It was a quiet, calm day for terrorism here in the USA. Given that our borders are still about as open as one could make them and still have a governance, and that we are fighting (and dying) in a place that has nothing to do with 911, and that we STILL haven't availed upon ourselves the greatest security resource available to us: our own population, I am amazed that we haven't had another attack on our soil.

Oh, sure, you can't bring a slurpy on a plane. Wow. I am suddenly feeling so much more secure! Oh, sure, you get to be tagged and indexed by the gubbermint to be able to cash checks, drive, and do what we used to take for granted! Again, I am awash in security! It feels like a nice, warm fuzzy blanket that Uncle Dick put on me while I was sleeping.

OTOH, Osama has already won, and he hasn't had to do much of anything. He just lets the Bush Crime Family carry the water.

Now y'all can carp and moan and come up with a Million Little Consipiracy theories. Some of them might even be true. But it doesn't change what happened, and what our response should have been.

We OUGHT to have looked to the democratic countries that have experience with Islamic-based terrorism. Oh, well.

I never liked slurpies anyway.

JJ ARK:

Who asked you for a fingerprint to cash a check or drive? How is that George Bush's fault?

I know there are banks that may ask for a fingerprint if they doubt your identity, but you don't have to do business with them if you choose not to. Maybe you ought to get an account at the local credit union.

Raul,

I get your point of view, yet I apologize if my heart is not pouring blood. Fact is, my mind is set on getting a career and paying for your retirement. After all, them Baby Boomers make up a good quarter to a third of the U.S. population and someone has to be working 50-80 hours a week to fund someone else's retirement. Then we have the illegals to oh how dare me! Hispanic Migrant Workers to support via Federal Grants to non-profits such as the Northwest Seasonal Workers Association. Life is fun for us Generation Yers because nobody in the past 2 generations had the balls to tackle Social Security or Illegal Immigration.

Mister TEE:

No one. Yet. Check out what sort of info you may get to give for RealID.

JJ

Please help Ginny climb off the ledge of delusional paranoia.

Ginny,

thanks for making it brief.

There's a rally at mid-night (consult Monday's astrology chart for location) to meet the aliens that have taken control of GW. Make sure to say the secret code. See you there.

William,

I noticed you didn't even attempt to answer the questions or refute the evidence. Nor did you give any email address or link to for further inquiry or debate. Who's paranoid? Give some of those links a read and let me know your theory that takes the facts into account. The 9/11 Report certainly doesn't, so please let us know your choice of conspiracy theory. (By the way, the 9/11 Report is a consipracy theory. But it is one of those "outrageous" conspiracy theories that Bush warned us not to believe in, remember? So please come up with one that is not outrageous and state it here.)

Dan -- Sorry. I did get a bit carried away. But there is so much the corporate koolaid dispenser is not telling us, it is very difficult to summarize it briefly. I do apologize for the length but I hope now that you have satisfied yourself with a good round of insulting me, that you get to it and read some of the facts. Either face the facts and explain them or take your sophomoric sarcasm and leave this discussion to those few here who prefer to come to conclusions based on facts and evidence rather than what they are told to believe by the petulant, psychotic, unelected troglodyte inhabiting our White House and his insipid synchophants controlling our airwaves.

Thank you,

Ginny

I don't want to get caught in the crossfire but here is a link to some interesting reading that debunks the conspiracy theories.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

The 9/11 Comission Report (avaliable at http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05aug20041050/www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf was prepared by a diverse and competent group of people that had access to virtually every witness and piece of evidence available (including 2 million pages of documents).

I believe page 480 (the speech of President Clinton to the Long Island Association) is the single most damning piece of evidence. Assuming you don't quibble over what the meaning of the word "is" is.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to pick one or two conspiracy theories, and then work to develop a chronology of events that explain away the multitude of contradictions with the 9/11 Commission Report.

You diminish your own credibility with the shotgun approach ("The Government Lied about September 11") and links to dozens of distinct conspiracy theories available on the web.

Ginny -

It's impossible to have any sort of real discussion - on your terms - about the so-called facts you cite. You can take that grocery list of websites as gospel, but when each of them (supposedly reputable) proffers "facts" that are in direct contradiction with each other (e.g. AA 77 crashed into the Pentagon vs. there was no AA 77), a reasonable person has to wonder about the quality and credibility of information.

What you have is a pile of self-contradiction, conjecture, hearsay, and a lot of other jibbery-joo masquerading as fact.

I, for one, know that there was no AA 77 that hit the Pentagon. The folks who were supposedly on the plane are lying low in my basement - we're about to watch some re-runs of House.

Don't believe me? I'm about to publish an expose about it on the Internet, that magical realm where everything is true.

At first I thought Ginny was suffering from Paranoid delusion along the lines of Bev Harris, then I found a website that convinced me that the entire world is being controlled by a small covert group of powerful people.

These “people” follow a serpent cult belief that dates back thousands of years. Rituals are being carried out to this day; sadly this includes the sexual abuse and murder of young children. I point out at this early stage that I do not want you to believe what I say out of hand. I want you to carry out your own research.

Remember the movie "Snakes on a Plane"? This link has nothing to do with it, or with the Federal Agent in Charge of the 9/11 Plot. That said, I'm pretty sure they used snakes to kill the pilots and crew of three of the 9/11 planes. Why? Because snakes have no skeleton, so there would be no evidence once the planes were incinerated. Need more proof: do a Google search on "9/11 Conspiracy Theories"...1.6 million results can't all be wrong, right? Well then add the word "+Snakes" to the above search: 9,666 hits. The 9 stands for September, and 666 stands for...he who has no name. I even found a picture of George Bush trying to infiltrate the truth seeker meetings.

To all the skeptics: once you have read all 9,666 websites, then come back here and we can have an informed debate. Peace be with you.

Ginny: you post a monster batch o links that would take any thorough person YEARS to fully research, document and rebut.

Impossible.

So I guess she who posts the most wins?

The simple truth is that this is an exercise in irrelevance. If EITHER the government story OR a conspiracy is to be believed, the net result is the same: the only people you can rely on are your fellow citizens. Period.

If the Government story is correct, and the events of September 11th were caused by Osama’s acolytes, we can examine the actions of that same government and come to the logical conclusion that they are inept and incapable of protecting us.

If a conspiracy has been perpetrated, then we have no choice but to trust and rely on our fellow citizens.

I would love to see someone move past the how and to the “what now”. I am not seeing anything like that at the moment.

JJ:

IRONICALLY, I firmly believe that is precisely what the Bush Administration has been doing since September 12, 2001. They knew that our intelligence community and "law enforcement" approach to Al Qaeda suffered a series of deadly shut-outs in the years leading up to 9/11. They decided that a new, more aggressive, posture would be necessary to prevent future attacks. Scanning the horizon of anti-Americanism around the globe, he decided early on that Saddam Hussein was a danger to the stability of the region and proliferation of WMDs.

Five years later, there have been no additional attacks on U.S. soil (excepting the follow on Anthrax Attacks which began the week after 9/11) and any "violation" of my civil liberties remain undetected.

I am dumbfounded that anybody (least of all a U.S. Congressman) would see any reason to extend U.S. Constitutional protections to foreign fighters picked up on the battlefields of Afghanistan or the IED factories in Baghdad. I understand that we must respect the Geneva Conventions in order to maintain our moral compass. That said, I am under no illusion that Al Qaeda will quit beheading their hostages, killing civilians by the dozens, or exploiting the weaknesses inherent in an open and free society.

Given our recent experience with the North Vietnamese and (previously) the Imperial Japanese Army, it seems unlikely that America's respect for the rules of war (including the Geneva Conventions) will encourage our adversaries to do the same.

Well-worded bogosity, Mr.TeeVee -- 'V' for Vapid -- agit-denying the anthrax was traitorous CIA-grade and traitorous CIA-sourced, (while agit-lying on its timing), and sweeping under your rug of ignorance for all, one single mention of the lawyer kidnapped from his home in Hillsboro at the 2:00 a.m. Gestapo hour, slandered and defamed in false reports to a fear Press who then published the unsubstantiated hype gnosis, illegally incarcerated and questioned without counsel present, and unconstitutionally held unarraigned and incommunicado, whose name (both is forgotten on purpose, and does not deserve dishonored of being in the same breath of a sentence with your name on it), is signed now on a false arrest and sedition lawsuit against F.B.I. impatriotics whose 8-figure malfeasance-charged fines could be your tax dollars at despot's work; sweeping stupidly bellicose one single mention of fascist Republican war criminalities to avoid entering the list of thousands of them (www.WayneMadsenReport.com), decent and innocent souls extraordinarily and illegally renditioned -- your tax dollars and taxing self-disparagement toadiness, at work, again -- in the human rights crimes of military-industrial proxy-mercenary torture murderings (which just like Adolf Hitler, Mr.TeeVee endorses) until, now, only the 14 surviving victims are claimed -- without evidentiary proof, again -- to have been transferred, illegally, to and set to be finished off at the atrocity arena you battily bloodthirst to Git mo' of.

But I want to go back to something you said earlier, (Sep 11, 2006 6:08:26 AM), or somebody like you, and advise whoever heeds the heads-up: that you could "just go piss" as you say, and also could put shit in your mouth to chew on before you speak again to get an idea what your words make you -- war crimes collaborator. Someone should be around to check on you after Nuremberg-going impeachments dishabiles the skirts you hide and harbor inhuman hate behind today. People are beautiful and bright, people -- that would be us -- are all and everything, but by all appearances you congenitally hate when that happens for some probable comparative disadvantage in a milieu making you loser. Pity, you spell and wordwork so well in your infamy of temper infidelius, as much as all experience has seen in those who fooled the intelligence community of mistaken qualification before being rumped and dumped back in civil ordered society you never came out of identified with in the first place -- that origin being dispiritingly viable birth.

JJArk -- you got the exack fack jack: Security for me is thee and for thee is me, and mutual, too, for common threat and danger. When you go on like TeeVee dismissing what is truth's importance -- Decide: Theory A. Osamaboys did it; Theory B. Bushboys did it -- how can you have our backs until you know what threatening you are warding? You're right, it's up to you, and me. And you're right, "what now?" to be matters more. I said what I see on a later thread, (Jeff Alworth's "9/11 - Violence and Other Lessons"), but here, in short, what now is: They strike again. They'll be ba-a-ack. Very like they threaten. So you may see it is important to know, what the first ones looked like in order to recognize the same ones a second time, approaching. (Psst! Hint: They look bush-league Ivy league.)

Ginny -- thanks for the links and honeyed toast. I found and read half your list, (it only takes a week or two of study halls), and, Props!, Big up!, am down with your surmise. However, except, I don't see your objections in some 'remote' possibilities, I don't see the Boeing hunted for you say you see, and I do see days-old new information on the case we could share. Not here, the TeeVee's always on. That's what's wrong with this place, auteurs quoting status quo Democrat brandbrain and anti-Democrat blankbrain.

We could meet up over at BlogForOregon.com and kick around some new information.

Ginny:

Here's another 102 links for your review... To reiterate: I believe you are pissing on the graves of the dead when you suggest that "Da Gummint" was the true perpetrator of the 9/11 attacks. Your tin-foil hat needs another layer: you're making the Sasquatch hunters and the UFOlogists look respectable, by way of comparison.

While I am not a structural enginner, those who are believe that falling debris from WTC 1 (see page 5-16) ignited a fire at 7 World Trade Center ("WTC 7") that was accelerated by large diesel storage tanks (with more than 30,000 gallons of capacity) that fueled the fires. There was also a 10 story "gash" on the south side of the building, presumably resulting from falling WTC 1 debris. WTC 7's "cantilevered" design (especially floor 5 and 7) likely compromised the entire structure.

Sadly, given the close proximity of two 112 story towers that had just collapsed, the smoke and debris made it difficult to document the extent of damage to WTC 7 before it also collapsed. The firefighting capacity was severely diminished in lower Manhattan, and there was no "manual" water deployed on 7 WTC (the duration of automatic sprinkler deployment is also unknown, but the consensus is that the sprinkler pipes were compromised). Did I mention there was an electrical substation in the basement?

Given that both the US Secret Service and the NY City Mayor's Office of Emergency Management were located in 7 WTC, it sure was some conspiracy to make certain they never found out about it. Cause they would be pissed.

Never demand a conspiracy when sheer bureacratic malaise and political correctness can explain how September 11th occurred without a hitch.

95% of these conspiracy theories are baseless horseshit that use innuendo and/or bad camera angles to suggest that 4 airplanes simply vanished without a trace. To paraphrase an old joke: who would you like us to believe Ginny, YOU, or our lying eyes?

NEVER FORGET the brave souls on UAL Flight 93 who sacrificed their own lives in order to spare the U.S. Congress or the White House from destruction (much to Tenskey's dismay).

They are the only ones who proactively defeated the terrorists of 9/11, and we owe them an eternal debt of gratitude.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/7wtc.html

Ginny:

You need help.

Even if you've never heard that suggestion before, let me assure you that you are going to hear it again from friends and family members that listen to your conspiracy theories. These friends and family members aren't trying to insult you or diminish your capacity for reason: they are trying to help you understand that people who disagree with your beliefs have based their opinions on reasonable data, and they are not parties to the conspiracy that resulted (in your opinion) in the attack on 9/11.

Speak with your doctor, or call your EAP/Insurance provider and tell them you would like a referral for a psychiatric consultation.

Let me assure you that I'm not with the FBI, the CIA, FEMA, DoD, the Insurance Lobby, AIPAC, Mossad, the White House, or any of the other perpetrators or investigators of the 9/11 attacks.

I am a staunch defender of the truth, and I'm frustrated with the large body of unreliable and misleading data that is available on the web. There is no accountability, and anybody can make up anything and then post it as "truthiness".

The overwhelming body of evidence suggests that Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11, including the recent videotape released by Usama Bin Laden. I understand that you disagree with this simple thesis. If you reject this explanation, then please indicate who you believe to be responsible, and how they managed to destroy several high-rise buildings in Manhattan, 4 planes, and damage the Pentagon. Don't give me any more links: tell me what you believe to be the truth.

Here's a 294 page report from the National Institute on Standards and Technology at http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf. The specific discussion of WTC 7 begins on page 108 (there's a great photo of a burned out fire truck next to WTC 7 taken soon after the collapse of WTC 1): this was the "pumper" that would have supplied water pressure to the risers inside of WTC 7, if it hadn't been destroyed. Effective firefighting capability was compromised by this (and other) FDNY equipment and personnel losses. If you don't successfully combat the fire, and there is sufficient fuel to raise the maximum temperatures, just about any steel building will be destroyed.

More information is available at http://wtc.nist.gov/