thanks for trying this out, and for sharing your experience. it sounds like you noticed a lot of the benefits right away. parking everywhere and the time you save exercising were two of my favorites. not giving a dang about the price of oil is nice, too.

it's easy for single young(ish) bikers like me to forget that people have heavy items to haul around like three children. i think i'd have a car, too, if i had kids.

but you'll save a lot of money on insurance if that second car goes...

my car broke down this past Winter while I was on a road trip in California. I got a ride back and then tried to have the car fixed from afar. In the end, it was towed to junk yard. For 2 months I did without a car. It was the first time I was without a car since living in Seattle without one for 1.5 years when I first moved there in 1995.

I learned a lot of things. Mostly about myself. But also about syncronicity. When you're not driving, all of a sudden, another world opens up. I kept meeting people in various places, and continuing on with them, instead of having to say "well, what will I do with my car" it was - "I'll walk/bike/drive with you, wherever you're going".

My world really changed for a while, and when finally about 2 months ago, someone gave me their old car, I realized I'm much less apt to use it. I bike to work every day - thank goddess, that's possible. And there's MAX and buses, and walking, and yeah, not doing some of the things that are too far away for me.

I've got to check out Flexcar, definitely on my list.

anyway, if you haven't done without a car for a while, I highly recommend doing without it for a while for a change of perspective.

One of the reasons I moved to Portland a couple of years ago was so that I could sell my car, and I haven't looked back. (Although I agree, it would be tougher for someone with kids.)

And I'm also a Flexcar member, and they provide an excellent service for people like me on the occasions when we really need to use a car.

It's great not having to worry about the expense of a car, and the price of gas, and to feel like I'm doing my part to cut down on oil imports.

During World War II, one of the catchphrases was "Is this trip really necessary?", as a reminder to conserve fuel. If we had national leaders who were interested in lessening our dependence on foreign oil, maybe they could institute such a slogan again.

I cringed just a little before reading this, because "giving up the car for a month" is becoming a popular journalistic experiment, with the stories generally involving immobility, discomfort, tardiness, danger, and crazy people on buses. Thanks for helping break the mold! Still, I can't agree with your take-away "I learned it just isn't feasible for a family of five to completely stop driving..." We're only 3 going on 4, but I see no wall at 5. We've never owned a car, and have managed well in 5 different states. We live in what was called a suburb when it was designed, when virtually all of Portland's families were car-free and bikes outnumbered cars more than 20:1 on the streets; physically not all that much has changed, except the roads have gotten smoother and the bike technology better. We take transit 3-4 times a year, the rest being all bikes. We're not alone: our neighbor's a car-free mom of 2. We went shopping together earlier this year and I brought a camera: One mom, two kids, four bags of groceries, no car. Disclaimer: I sell some of the gear pictured; it's what we use ourselves.

To Mike Schryver:

There was also a slogan in WWII (along with a poster) that read "When you drive alone, you're driving with Hitler". That along with your WWII slogan were plastered everywhere to have the US people conserve for the war effort. Your right - mayber we should get the slogans going again.

Congratulations Leslie on your courage and initiative. From my experience living in Zurich I can tell you the more complicated your life is, the more frequently you use your car, and kids are probably the biggest life complicaters of all! While the goal of getting everyone to never drive is a good one, my observations indicate getting even a significant portion of the people currently sitting alone in cars onto the bus or bike would make a huge difference.

The key to getting people out of the car is to make driving less convenient. Only when it's as easy or easier to take the bus or bike as to drive will the average driver leave the car behind. Ways to do this include reducing the amount of parking, making parking more expensive, increasing car registration taxes and the cost of obtaining a driver's license.

The average European loves his/her car as much as the average American, but the main reason many don't drive is because it's so expensive and inconvenient to drive in the city. Until we take the same approach we'll never achieve their rates of carlessness.

Interesting...I live in Beaverton, about 10 minutes from where I work in downtown Portland. To ride MAX, I must buy a $72 monthly pass that keeps going up every few months (it was $64 when I started using it about 18 months ago). I already spend more on the pass than I did per month for gas. (Even at current gas prices...I have a very economical car).

The gas prices aside, MAX is a one-hour commute one way, including the 10 minute walk to the transit center, but compare that to the 10 minute drive from my driveway to work. Really, the only thing keeping me from driving again is the cost of parking downtown (around $150/mo). But I figure if the TriMet pass keeps going up like it has been, it will be a wash soon.

That extra time in the evening would sure be nice, or that extra hour of sleep at night. But somehow I guess that would be called selfish.

The key to getting people out of the car is to make driving less convenient. Only when it's as easy or easier to take the bus or bike as to drive will the average driver leave the car behind. Ways to do this include reducing the amount of parking, making parking more expensive, increasing car registration taxes and the cost of obtaining a driver's license.

Wow...do you work for the city of Portland or Metro?

Neither. I'm just a big fan of livable cities. What's your point?

jon, could you bike? it would save you the trimet pass and time exercising. you could still spend a few bucks to take the max if something came up, but biking is where it's at if you can manage it.

"Portland: the City that Makes Driving Inconvenient"

I wish I could find somebody to cart my kids from place to place. THAT would be a reason to give up my car.

Poor baby. You yuppies making sacrifices are a bit hard to take. Lots and lots of poor folks do not have cars, period. I have not had one for more than 10 years. I ride the bus and take an occasional cab. I save that $150 every month because I simply don't have it. But life is good anyway. I think you should quit being so self-congratulatory and give away everything else you have that you don't really need. Send some of your excess wealth to me. I need money to get my teeth fixed, and I don't have it.

Wow Foodstampfanny! But at least you have internets right? Hang in there!

I know a family of six who over 15 years put an average of 6,000 miles a year on their Taurus station wagon (I know for sure, because I bought that car). They biked everywhere within five miles. The husband bikes from his home near Hollywood to the PCC Sylvania campus.

Every one of them, except the mother, was my taekwon-do student at least for awhile and they were/are the most physically fit students I've ever had.

So it is possible for a large family to do without a car at least most of the time. There are some interlocking issues that prevent families from using bikes and other modes of transportation. One is that the quality of Portland's schools is so inconsistent and with the freedom to choose schools outside of one's neighborhood, parents are often sending their kids to schools several miles away--and then different kids to different schools.

There also are safety issues. While Portland may be the best place in North America to ride a bike, it still can get a bit crazy out on the streets, particularly beyond the bungalow belt. And parents seem to be far more paranoid about the well-being of their kids than they were when I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s.

To Jon in Beaverton: 1) the Tri-Met schedule says it should take about 22 - 25 minutes from the Beaverton Transit Center to Pioneer Square. Now I think the MAX could have been faster with much better planning, particularly through downtown, but I don't think Tri-Met is off by over 100%. (Ray Polani, god bless him, has been pushing a subway through downtown for 20 years or so, and he was right. The main thing is that keeping light rail on the surface limits capacity).

By the way, after splitting my time between a 3-acre farmette in Dundee and a little apartment in Portland, I moved permanently back into town two weeks ago. Since then, I have been inside a motor vehicle twice, and once was to take this funky old Toyota motorhome that I'm trying to sell up to a benefit car wash.

Haven't felt this good since I went without a car for four years in the mid-nineties. The trick will be when the monsoons of November come through.

Jon Interesting...I live in Beaverton, about 10 minutes from where I work in downtown Portland. **** MAX is a one-hour commute one way, including the 10 minute walk to the transit center, but compare that to the 10 minute drive from my driveway to work. Really, the only thing keeping me from driving again is the cost of parking downtown (around $150/mo).

Okay, you stumped me. I can see a one-hour commute if you have to transfer somewhere (say, taking a long bus ride to MAX), but where do you live that it takes you ten minutes to get downtown by car and fifty minutes by MAX? Given that you live a ten minute walk from a MAX station.

foodstamp fanny, did you vote for george dubya last go-round?

I live 4.5 miles from my work: including a 12 minute walk (and 5 minutes of waiting), my Tri-Met commute is 35-50 minutes (tested on 4 occassions). No transfers required. The afternoon ride always takes longer than the morning commute.

In the morning, I routinely drive it (door to parking garage basement) in 11 minutes; maybe 14-15 minutes if I miss all the lights or there's a lot of traffic. In the afternoon, it varies from 15 to 25 minutes (I have three choices to get home, but usually take Barbur). Bike Nazis should quit reading NOW: it's worth more than $300/month to cut my commute in half, and I can pick up dry cleaning or groceries on the way home.

When the Bike Lanes are separated from the dump trucks by something more tangible than reflective paint, I might consider taking Macadam or Barbur, at least in fair weather. But riding a bike to work in the rain? Are you kidding me? Then I have to worry about changing clothes when I get there, and then changing back into my grubbies to go home. I don't have the time for that B/S.

As much as I feel empathy for Foodstamp Fanny (no matter who she voted for), I can afford to drive, and I will continue to do so right up to $8/gallon gas.

The key to getting people out of the car is to make driving less convenient.<<<

I'm all for livable, walkable, cities. I'm a fire-breathing pedestrian who has "counted coup" several times in "purse and umbrella hits" to cars that have tried me too closely.

But, still.

Are you underestimating the need for a carrot? And, a compromise?

The vast majority of adults in this city (hint, we are a democracy and majorities count) drive.

The vast majority of mothers in this city do not have nannies to hand off their driving obligations to, so they can be purified...

Your notion that we just, er, by fiat? "make driving less convenient" is not a persuasive viable plan to deal with the very real challenges of our current and incoming transportation problems.

Talk to me about smart cars. Talk to me about smart buses (and more of them, running more frequently, not less so).

Talk to me about how to make things work, positively and proactively, for all of us.

Anybody else notice a common thread of self-absorbedness and arrogance that really makes Jennifer W and most of the anti-car posters just two sides of the same coin?

And I'm still trying to understand this non-sequitor from Jennifer W:

As much as I feel empathy for Foodstamp Fanny (no matter who she voted for), I can afford to drive, and I will continue to do so right up to $8/gallon gas.

What does empathy for Foodstamp Fanny, real or feigned, have to do with your seeming masochistic eagerness to be gouged by oil companies charging $8/gallon for gas?

Anybody else notice a common thread of self-absorbedness and arrogance that really makes Jennifer W and most of the anti-car posters just two sides of the same coin?

And I'm still trying to understand this non-sequitor from Jennifer W:

As much as I feel empathy for Foodstamp Fanny (no matter who she voted for), I can afford to drive, and I will continue to do so right up to $8/gallon gas.

What does empathy for Foodstamp Fanny, real or feigned, have to do with your seeming masochistic eagerness to be gouged by oil companies charging $8/gallon for gas?

Now if someone offered me free Flex car time, a monthly pass, a bike and a free Amtrak trip to Seattle or Eugene, I, too, might be able to give up my car for a month. As it is, it's still cheaper to drive for what driving I do than it is to consider public transportation. And it is not that convenient, especially for us older folks in inclement weather...when you have to walk many blocks in pouring rain, then wait for 10 or 15 minutes for a bus. More light rail...or maybe a subway? I don't mind public transporation in Paris, because it is very convenient...then again, it is also too dangerous to drive there since there don't seem to be any traffic rules.

There have been many valid and semi-valid arguments in favor of driving (time, money, carrying capacity). However nobody yet has mentioned safety. Is saving 10-15 minutes or $50 worth someone's life? (I know, it will never happen to you)

Children (who are not legally allowed to drive, and therefore not legally allowed to use the public roads) make up the largest percentage of car-crash victims. More people are killed each year by cars than the entire Vietnam War. (though there's no memorial) http://www.yourbodypower.org/children.htm

For those who have children, you are probably frustrated with the state of our public schools. Consider this:

If you divide the cost of a college education over 15 years, it averages to $6800/yr. The average cost of owning a single car is $7200/yr (VTPI, AAA). This means that if you sell your car shortly after your child is born, you save enough money to provide a full college scholarship.

Neither. I'm just a big fan of livable cities. What's your point?

Just asking...seems to be the current thinking at both of those entities as well.

To Jon in Beaverton: 1) the Tri-Met schedule says it should take about 22 - 25 minutes from the Beaverton Transit Center to Pioneer Square. Now I think the MAX could have been faster with much better planning, particularly through downtown, but I don't think Tri-Met is off by over 100%.

Well, I dunno what to tell you. For my trip home, I leave my building at 4:30, walk 5 blocks to Pioneer Square, then have to wait for MAX. I get off at Beaverton TC, walk home (takes about 10 min). I walk in my door about 5:30. Mornings to downtown are sometimes considerably quicker, I dont know why.

i don't think fanny is real. i used to bike and bus because i had to, and i didn't have dental insurance, either. but i respected wealthier people who chose to do it all the more. her attack is pure republican troll latte smear.

fanny, if i'm mistaken and you're real, get yourself some therapy (you shouldn't feel like a victim all the time) and all the education you can get your grubby little hands on. then you can have dental insurance, if you can bear giving up your hatred of yuppies enough to get a better job. we yuppies on blueoregon will continue to vote for people who will get everyone health care and not cut your food stamps, because we know not everyone is born with a trust fund (i sure as hell wasn't).

but you don't have to be a jerk, "fanny."

Are you underestimating the need for a carrot? And, a compromise?

I’m not espousing making driving more expensive to make public transportation more attractive because I prefer the negative solution. I’m just trying to share what I’ve observed worked for Zurich, with one of the best public transportation systems in the world and many other communities in Europe. In my observations, it’s not the convenience of buses, etc. which gets people to ride but rather the inconvenience of driving which pushes them to the bus.

I’m a big supporter of more frequent service, and I would happily argue to add buses, etc. as a carrot to get people to ride, (positively and proactively) but that takes money. Portland can’t find the money to properly fund its schools, so I have no illusions about how difficult it must be to get funding to expand the system given current ridership levels. The bottom up strategy of decreasing the ease and relative low cost of driving to your destination will increase ridership (and trimet income) and creates a larger base of people (like Jon) who want better service. This will provide the critical mass to find money to add to the system.

Your notion that we just, er, by fiat? "make driving less convenient" is not a persuasive viable plan to deal with the very real challenges of our current and incoming transportation problems.

You don’t see city hall implementing policy by fiat all the time? How difficult is it to raise parking meter rates and put that money into new buses? This isn’t a notion, it’s a real world example implemented dozens of times by cities with the highest population densities on the planet. Do you see Smart Parks in New York for $1.25 an hour? What is a viable plan? Float a bond measure for x Million dollars to expand the current system? I’d vote for it, but I suspect Trimet has a few reasons why it’s not on the next ballot.

Talk to me about smart cars. Talk to me about smart buses (and more of them, running more frequently, not less so).

I’m not sure what you mean by smart cars and buses. I know all about the Smart car (developed in Switzerland), and they’re great, but exchanging 10 ft. long cars for 4 footers isn’t going to be enough. Bus schedules are already determined by computer models according to an article I read. Maybe you mean buses being able to change traffic lights? Yes that’s a good idea, as well as giving buses their own lane apart from cars (passing all the cars stuck in traffic is certainly a positive inducement to ride).

To Jon, it still seems strange that it takes you an hour to get home. 5 blocks = 1000 feet, so that's about a 5 minute walk. Add 5 minutes for waiting, 23 minutes for the trip, and the 10 minute walk home, and you have 43 minutes. Maybe you stopped for a latte too? ;-)

Otherwise, it's really a shame that everyone just wants to yell at each other instead of trying to find the common ground to come up with an acceptable solution for everyone. I agree that the car is the quickest way to get places, except in downtown Portland where a bike is quicker, but a lot of that is because we've spent 50 years trying to make it so. I think that if we decided that all modes deserved equal treatment, driving might become a little less convenient because it's no longer a system designed primarily for driving -- it's a system designed for all users (solo drivers, carpoolers, vanpools, bikes, peds, trucks, transit). And if driving became a little less convenient, then the other modes need to be made more convenient to compensate, e.g. safer bike paths, quicker transit, etc.

Thanks to a generation of Republican rule, the cost of tax-cutting is now clear: it falls on those least able to pay it. Transportation is one of these costs, and they all add up.

And if there was Democrat rule, they would have taxed us into the poor house to pay for everything. So whats the difference? Both sides are responsible one way or the other.

As the price of housing has gone up in the city core, poorer residents are driven further out

And you can thank the Urban Growth zealots for that.

Drivers themselves will make driving inconvient. I see no reason why society has to widen roads to allievate traffic. The choice of the road is already in place. Society has paid trillions for that option. If it fills up then so be it. I'm not willing to sacrifice my neighborhood so those living farther and farther away from jobs get home 5 minutes faster.

article on this on OPB website

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/opb/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=952172&sectionID=1

Congratulations - while I've been carfree for 2.5 years, being a single college student seems to make things much easier to work out than having 3 kids and a busy schedule. Kudos to you for giving it a try - hopefully some can take inspiration in your story, if even to bike once or twice a month, or walking to the corner store for groceries.

Unfortunately, Portland - as walking friendly as it is - is still not convenient enough for most people to give up driving, but its inching its way there...

CAB:

Your "us vs. them" dichotomy is likely to bite you on the hindquarters.

If planners fail to accomodate the preferred mode of travel (driving) as the urban population grows, those future drivers are going to be using your neighborhood street to bypass the traffic on the thoroughfares.

If you think artificial bottlenecks are going to get people out of their cars, you ought to check out the eastbound terminus of SW Taylors Ferry starting about 4:30 p.m. weekdays: the backup from the Sellwood Bridge frequently extends all the way up the hill to Terwilliger. Those commuters are sitting there day after day, wasting gas, creating unnecessary exhaust gases, and the traffic gets worse each year.

If they replace the Sellwood with another bridge that includes a single vehicular lane in each direction, then I will be moving to Happy Valley.

Leslie, must be nice to have all those sponsors to give you the free goodies that none of us get. I found it amusing that you had your nanny "take over" part of your driving responsibilities.

So basically part of my tax dollars to the city gave you a perk for a month to write a self-congratulatory "attagirl" article about yourself while you had your nanny help you schlep your children around instead doing it yourself.

Many of us need to drive. I agree that we need to drive less and reduce sprawl but there are times when there are no other alternatives. Many of us don't live near a MAX line and taking TriMet sometimes is a pain in the butt. I went on their website to calculate the time it would take for me to go from where I live (west side) to the NE. It took over 45 minutes. With a transfer downtown. Portland schools sucks (thanks to supporters of Measure 5), so many of us have to drive our kids around to better schools. What? I'm supposed to sacrifice my children's future for a greener Portland? I don't think so.

And what about your nanny, Leslie? Where does she live? If she lives within bus or walking distance, that's great. But a lot of people who aren't as well off to afford housing downtown, in the Pearl, or within the city boundaries have to drive into Portland where the jobs are. So unless someone is going to put up massive numbers of affordable housing units in the city and around public transportation hubs/lines, this "oh you can bike your way to work" attitude punishes the poorest and least-well off workers.

Jeff A., it's messed up that people who can afford full-price Trimet passes often get them deeply subsidized by their bosses, while people making minimum wage or scraping by on disability payments have to pay full price.

Does anyone know if there's a program to help lower-income folks get Trimet passes at an affordable price?

Um, I think the only tax dollars spent were for the City of Portland maps -- probably ran about $25 for the 24 participants combined. And, some federal subsidy of Amtrak generally. Meanwhile, the feds were subsidizing road maintenance and construction that wasn't used by these folks, and... so forth. You can say it's a bad program, but don't feel robbed as a taxpayer.

So WHAT is Leslie has a nanny who can help care for her three kids?

Leslie's post was a social experiment that was successful for her. Going carless in Portland is not going to work for everyone all the time, but it would be great if we could walk/bike more, carpool and take public trans when possible. I lived in DC for five years before moving to PDX and in both cities, my car sat 5 out of 7 days. Increased interest in green living(both in our wallets and keeping our planet alive) are taxing US public transit systems. We may need to dig a little deeper to improve outdated systems. Perhaps employers could offer a subsidized Trimet pass to make it more attractive? Or gyms could offer "shower only" memberships so people could wash up before starting their work day.

There are more solutions than problems.

This isn't a self-congratulatory post. This is Leslie describing the complexity of having three young children, working downtown, and trying to explore a driving free month. If anything, it's a self exploration of the reliance we have on the automobile.

"I learned it just isn't feasible for a family of five to completely stop driving, although I realized that we weren't doing as well as possible at reducing car trips."

Additionally, using friends, family and others to help shuttle your children is called "carpooling" and conservation of energy.

The whole point of Low Car Diet is to challenge yourself to do better. I'm sure Leslie's driving habits will change because of this and it also helps her in the future to develop or make other choices regarding how and when to transport her children.

I thought the whole point was to make everybody else feel guilty for not trying as hard as Leslie to reduce their automobile usage, and not buying a Prius, or eating micro-farmed organic vegetables from Whole Foods that you carried home in a hemp bag.

But maybe that's just me.

I liked the idea they use in Norway, where the closer you get to town, the higher the tolls. This does not prohibit driving into town, but it sure makes sure that it is worth the drive (it also pays for road upkeep. . . suprise!!!). People are encouraged to park and ride.

We need better ideas and we need them NOW~!

I like the idea they use in Norway, where the closer you get to town, the higher the tolls. This does not prohibit driving into town, but it sure makes sure that it is worth the drive (it also pays for road upkeep. . . suprise!!!). People are encouraged to park and ride.

We need better ideas and we need them NOW~!

"Mr. Tee"

What's your point? You'd rather we all hop in our SUV's and congratulate ourselves on our ability to trash the plant for our grandchildren?

Nice. I love individual liberty when it doesn't entail responsibility.

But maybe that's just me. Then again, I don't even know what micro-farmed vegetables are.

It's time for them to Beam you up to NORWAY, Scottie: land of the $8 gallon of gas.

If you think that is worth emulating, why not move there, and quit thinking up new ways to punish the working men and women who depend on their cars/trucks for transportation, work, and autonomy.

Mister Z:

The point is simple: quit trying to compel others to make the same "green" lifestyle choices that you have made.

Make decisions for you and yours, and let others do the same. Trying to use guilt, shame, or social engineering to make others live up to your standards is going to backfire. Big time.

Mr. T,

I'm over my Catholic upbringing, perhaps you are not and read too much into what others write. It's not about guilt, shame or social engineering. It's about doing what is responsible.

Put that in your styrofoam cup and slurp it.

The only "backfire" "big time" will be the consequence of the selfsish "choices" you want to make over the backs of my kids and their future.

And Mr. Z gets to define "doing what is responsible"...

That's asking a lot, isn't it? Letting one group of people dictate how another group of people should live.

If it WERE the Catholic Church telling you how to live your life, I'm guessing that you might prefer the term "doctrine" instead of "doing what is responsible".

Listening to progressives talk about social engineering is too ironic for words. Whatever happened to "Question Authority!"

Think about whether you really want to give the government more control over your daily life. And recognize that the government you admire today will eventually be controlled by politicians you find objectionable.

Do you think they will return that power to the people, once the people have decided the intrusion is unwarranted? Will the people even remember their autonomy, once they have delegated it to the State?

While Leslie may not have been typical in that she was able to get other people to drive her kids, the idea behind the event is to get others to think about their driving and whether they need to. Given that, the costs were worth it.

And given the amount of subsidies drivers get (free parking, a big portion of the Big Pipe, Washington Co's Major Streets Transportation Investment Plan, oil supply protection), "Letting one group of people dictate how another group of people should live." is what we're doing.

Are bike lans responsible for a portion of the Big Pipe too? I haven't seen too many of them made of crushed oyster shells or other porous materials.

Maybe the bikes are getting a "free ride" on all that nasty old asphalt?

Also: even the crunchiest of you eco-warriors benefits from the tranportation infrastructure, even if you are not ambulatory. Emergency vehicles, deliveries to your favorite food co-op, and even the sanitary sewer systems follow the roads. It is childish to deminish the dependence that ALL OF US have on roads, even if you hate cars and don't take the bus.

Jami asked: Does anyone know if there's a program to help lower-income folks get Trimet passes at an affordable price? Tri-Met passes are uniformly subsidized; No special rights, all Metro taxpayers subsidize them.

Fares and passes paid for 20% of TriMet's budget. The remaining 80% came fom federal or local txes, all of which are 'progressive' (i.e., po folks pay less, righ folks pay more).

So, Jami, rich folks in their Priuses (Priii?) subsidise po folks' bus passes, just like folks in Clackamas County subsidise light rail in Multnomah and Washington counties.

Jami asked: Does anyone know if there's a program to help lower-income folks get Trimet passes at an affordable price? Tri-Met passes are uniformly subsidized; No special rights, all Metro taxpayers subsidize them.

Fares and passes paid for 20% of TriMet's budget. The remaining 80% came fom federal or local taxes, all of which are 'progressive' (i.e., po folks pay less, rich folks pay more).

<h2>So, Jami, rich folks in their Priuses (Priii?) subsidise po folks' bus passes, just like folks in Clackamas County subsidise light rail in Multnomah and Washington counties. But, I suppose you want MORE from us?</h2>