Amen, Ms. Martens, AMEN!!

I've never understood the whole effort to get rid of full service gas in Oregon. I love it! I don't have to be "responsible" and save a few cents a gallon by getting out in the cold, windy, wet, or hot weather to pump my own gas and risk getting it on my hands. I don't even care why we have full-serve gas laws in this state. I'm glad for the luxury.

As for your snobby view of pumping gas for a living, I did it one summer while in college and it was the most fun job I ever had. It was a sociable, active job - running all over the place, washing windows, waiting on people, and talking to everyone that came in. I loved it! And I've never used or been tempted to use meth.

Plan your day a little better knowing you're going to have to spend an extra - gasp! - ten minutes at the gas station every 15-20 gallons. It can't be THAT bad.

Becky - Ever tried to get gas at 3 AM? I'm sure there are a few 24 hour gas stations around Portland, but I don't know where they are. If you happen to be in the 'Couv and have a credit card, they're all open 24 hours.

As a bicyclist, all the gas I pump is my own.

The common argument against selfserve usually comes from the progressive/labor interests that worry about all those unemployed gas station attendants. I'm glad to hear that debate may be turning. Now we just need to work on the attitudes of the people who believe they are entitled to have their gas pumped for them.

I have to admit that (when I'm not in a hurry) I appreciate not having to get out of my car to pump my gas. However, if given the choice between saving a buck on selfserve vs full serve, I'd probably take selfserve 90% of the time. Regardless, I'd rather live in a society where people are trusted to take responsibility for accomplishing presumably safe menial tasks on their own.

For me, pumping my own gas is akin to taking my garbage to the curb. Each occurs about once a week and involves a small amount of physical activity while exposed to the elements.

If Oregon law prohibited me from taking my garbage to the curb (after all I could slip or hurt my back on the way), I'm sure that after a few years I might grow accustomed to the sanitation workers removing these items from my back porch while I stayed warm inside my house with a cup of coffee. I might even resent the idea of changing the law, if I didn't allow myself to think of the bigger picture.

Sorry Becky. You can always pay a little extra for the convenience of having someone else pump your gas, but it isn't fair to impose your preferences on the rest of us.

Kari -

Not sure if self-serve would be cheaper in Portland or not, but you CANNOT be serious about using this months gas price as an indicator. Gas in Portland is historically higher than the national average, and a short-term deviance from that does not make for a useful statistic. C'mon already, talk about picking and choosing your stats. Pull up a 5-year average (at a minimum) and then we can see if it's useful information or not...

Kari is right Remember, Oregon didn't ban self-serve. We just never legalized full-serve.

The claims that all self serve is effortless and there are never any problems has been proven wrong over and over. Randy Miller and his friends always claimed no one would ever have a problem with a malfunctioning pump, no one would ever spill gas on their clothes, etc. If someone really enjoys getting out of their car when they get gas, they can go to an Arco station. It just so happens there are a few stations here in Salem-Keizer where they pump your gas, wash your windshield (will check oil and tires if asked) where the gas isn't that much more expensive--one such station had regular for 201.9 yesterday.

And it is not just about living wage union jobs. Have you noticed the underemployment rate ?(people working part time/ temporary but being glad they have any paycheck coming in at all)

As far as this being a partisan issue, it has been my experience that it is about other issues. Not everyone is as able bodied as Anne, but that's OK because some young people want to pump their own gas so everyone should? Awhile back, a group of paralyzed veterans won a lawsuit against one or more gas station companies requiring that they have their gas pumped for them. When we were in California over Christmas, I noted the sign saying that would be done as long as there were 2 people on duty. This was always a sticking point on self-serve legislation--those who said they would support it with language that there would always be 2 people on duty--one to run the cash register and another available to help customers. This was resisted by those who wanted a simple "self-serve gas shall be legal" bill with no restrictions written in.

Are parents supposed to have 2 adults in the car (one to pump gas, one to watch the kids)when they get gas, or are parents supposed to pump gas and then unbuckle the kids and take them in to pay?

One year a self-serve bill was debated in a committee which was predominantly women state reps. (of both parties). The members of the committee informed the advocates of self-serve of their own experiences while driving in other states and asked them to explain why such problems as they'd had with self-serve would not happen in Oregon. The bill did not pass out of committee.

Someone should research the origins of paid petition gatherers--it may be related to this issue. There was a ballot measure once where gas stations had petitions on their counter for people to sign--for self serve gas. It got on the ballot, and was defeated (talk about "the voters have spoken"!). Shortly thereafter, as I recall, 2 books came out: REAL MEN DON'T EAT QUICHE

REAL WOMEN DON'T PUMP GAS

Anne: First my credentials, I have lived in both Oregon and New Jersey for years and I have pumped gas for a living (in Jersey. I am afraid you have forgotten to mention the one major benefit of NOT pumping your own gas - you do not have to breathe in highly toxic fumes as you stand there at the pump...in addition, amateur pumpers like yourself tend to spill more gas, which is also bad for the environment. So, not pumping is good for you. Now, we just have to quit smoking.

For what it's worth, I went on a road trip through Nevada and California in September. I paid, on average, 10 cents more per gallon than in Oregon and I had to pump the sludge myself. I also paid more at a self-service station in Olympia a few weeks ago than I typically do at my friendly, neighborhood Chevron in SW Portland.

Um, I just have to ask: has anyone (including the O) taken the gas taxes into account? If I'm not mistaken, California and Washington both have gas taxes higher than Oregon's. So, if someone wants to have a rational discussion about the price of gas in this state...why don't we include (or rather, exclude) those numbers (sorry I don't have them).

And while everyone from the Willamette Valley seems to be cheering about lower prices, I'm wondering why you seem to have conveniently forgotten about the oil companies policy of "zone pricing" (a handy way for the gas companies to jack up the price on us in Southern and Eastern Oregon 15-30 cents above what all you in the Willamette Valley pay).

I just moved here last month from a state three-quarters of the way across the U.S. The day I arrived, after driving through the Siskiyous (an experience in itself for this former flatlander) I pulled into a service station in Medford, hopped out of my car, headed to the pump, and swiped my credit card. Just as I was grabbing the nozzle, this guy comes up to me and says, "Do you know it's illegal to pump your own gas in Oregon?"

I looked at him for about 5 seconds, trying to figure out if this was my introduction to the Oregon sense of humor or if I was getting ready to be hauled off to jail. Then I looked around and saw other people dressed like him pumping gas while the drivers sat in their cars. So I figured "when in Rome ..." and told him, "you pump the gas, I'm going to go pee."

I think Oregon's gas pumping system is fine. I don't need to pay extra to keep gas off good clothes and out of my lungs.

Anne's comments on the employment aspect of the issue are insulting to low wage workers. There are many people working for the same wage earned by a "pump jockey", and many of them work at jobs the "suck" just as much. I don't think such comments are worthy of a progressive blogsite.

TA is right--esp. last paragraph.

Anne seems to forget that cracks like "And for those of you spilling gas on your nice clothes or your nice car, you're supposed to put the nozzle into the hole before you start pumping." don't win friends and influence people. Is Anne willing to be a pump inspector and travel around the state to make sure that when properly used no spout will drip on anyone?

I was at a wedding years ago when a relative said "I have to buy gas and I am wearing my good clothes". This is someone who has done carpentry work and is thus not an uncoordinated person. But he was worried he might get gas on this good clothes. Could that be from experience where he lives in Washington state?

Anne, is this the reputation you want--of being sarcastic to those who disagree with you?

Can you prove that if we had self-serve in Oregon none of Pat Ryan's scenarios will happen here? Or are you so selfish you want to pump your own gas and how dare anyone interfere with your wishes?

And as far as "Tom - I'm not going to pretend that being a pump jockey is a great job. I don't think such delusion is required of progressives (though it is often expected). "

Are you saying that "progressives" are all supposed to think alike? Why belong to "progressives" or use any other label if thinking is as rigidly enforced as the Minnis/ Scott House majority? That none are supposed to point out the reality that many people are in the jobs they could find, not the job they wanted--regardless of political belief?

Anne, when was the last time you had a tough time finding a job? Anyone who has been in a mass hire situation (new chain store opening up and maybe 10 interviews going on in one room) knows that economics indicate why people would submit to such a situation, not political belief.

Wow, calm down everybody...

1. The initial post of the day on the Washington GOP's scare tactic mailing out the sham sexual predator cards received 6 posts, this 25. If you don't like it, maybe just take on that interesting conversation.

2. Anne, what can we say, natives go bonkers over this one. I would suggest moving on, nothing you can do about it. Start with our bigger problems like our driving, lack of sunshine, awful mascots for the 2 big state schools, anything other than gas, sales taxes or insulting Salmon. (tongue partially in cheek)

And, LT don't jump all over the woman - sheesh, she's obviously not a native. McCall failed, they're moving here, get used to it... Stop recalling the past and try to nicely teach folks about the local customs.

Anne,

It's not about pretending that pumping gas is a great job, it's about respecting the people who do that job. Writing "It pays just enough for you to afford the meth" conveys disrespect, suggesting that meth use is common among holders of this job.

I've had several nasty, low-paid jobs in my life. I would not have appreciated someone suggesting I must be a drug addict to do my job and would not have appreciated someone suggesting my job was not worth preserving.

Maybe you think it would be great to replace all store checkers with serve-selve scanners, since that's a worthless job, and you are quite capable of scanning your own purchases. Maybe you'd like to do away with those useless waiters, as you can easily yell your order back to the kitchen and pick up your tray as it emerges. Waiters probably just waste their pay on booze and lottery tickets anyway, eh?

All I have to say is, I'm really glad to pull up to a pump in Oregon and tell the jockey to "fill 'er up with regular. yeah, plastic please." Then just hand over the card, sign it when it comes back, annotate the receipt, reset the trip-o-meter, and be off. I can change CDs or radio stations while the tank fills, or just take a breather from driving. Or go use the restroom without having to worry about needing to fill the tank beforehand or when I return.

Plus, 7600 jobs is actually a lot of jobs. A lot of them are filled by high school or college students. Others, by people who just need some kind of income and are willing to pump gas to do it. I knew a chick in high school who did it because it was :sexy: for her, as a girl, to pump gas. She knew it!! You know it's true.

So, for anybody out there who wants to pump your own gas... move to California or Washington, or take a road trip to those or any other location right across the state line. It's fun! You can pump it yourself!

FYI, "Put-the-gas-in-the-hole" Anne: The gas doesn't get spilled before you put it in the hole.

It gets spilled after you pull it out.

You'd kinda expect that, wouldn't ya? It's the little bit left in the pipe. Us guys call that "the drip." Not much to be done about it, unless ya wanna just leave it in longer and wait for it all to dribble out slowly into the hole. ;-)

cheers, ~Garlynn

I think it's funny that a liberal is advocating job cuts... Granted, gas station workers don't have the best job in the world, but at least thier wages go up every January 1st, thanks to the minimum wage hike.

Since Oregon has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country, I'd hate to see those 7600 jobs go just because a bunch of non-natives complain because they don't have the ability to save a few pennies and stand out in the rain and muck while they pump their own gas.

And really, do you think prices will go down if all of the station attendees are canned? Um, no, the already profitable oil companies will maintain the current prices and pocket the extra, thank you.

According to website, Oregon, S Dakota & Ohio have a gas tax of 24%. Thirteen states have higher rates including N Carolina (24.2), Utah (24.5) and Maine (24.6). The highest is Wisconsin at 31.1%.

More than half the states in the nation have lower gas taxes than Oregon, including Texas (20%).

Only a moron* would conclude that paying people extra to do something for you when you could do it freely for yourself somehow saves you money.

If a business pays employees to do things for you that you could do for yourself, they pass the cost along.

That's one of the reasons why you have to box your own groceries at WinCo, they save the customer money that way.

Delivering gas is no different. Gas prices in each state are influenced by a host of other factors - fuel taxes, regulatory requirements, distribution networks, supply/demand, property prices, business taxes, property taxes, property values, port locations/fees, etc.

But maybe the best way to solve the debate is by a 6 month experiment. Pressure the legislature to allow Oregon stations with mini serve to also offer self serveset and set their prices independently.

If selfserve doesn't turn out to be cheaper on average, I promise to never post anything on Blue Oregon ever again.

*Sorry Kari, but if the dunce cap fits...

I moved to Oregon two years ago and I’m still baffled that I the state prohibits me from pumping my own gas. Some seem to think self-service wouldn’t lower prices, well, I with Anne: so what! This is a liberty issue.

Two arguments advanced that especially confuse me are the state should take away my right to pump my own gas to provides jobs and that oil companies will profit from self-service. Of course, Oregon’s law provides gas attendant jobs, but imagine if the state acted this way in other markets. When I was in college I bagged groceries for extra money. Now I shop at WinCo, where shoppers bag their own groceries. Should Oregon mandate that WinCo hire baggers? It would create jobs and “spare” me the burden of bagging them myself. No, it makes more sense to let groceries stores choose for themselves whether or not they want beggers and let me choose what grocery store I want to shop at.

Although I didn’t see anyone provide evidence that oil company profits will go up if Oregon allows self-service, but assuming this is true why would should the state limit my freedom to suppress oil company profits? I think my freedom is more valuable than whatever profits oil companies might get from Oregon self-service ban.

Anne, What you consider to be "the interesting and the provocative," others like me see as sarcastic, dismissive and disrespectful. You're now trying to package it as nothing more than some harmless good humor. Sorry, that doesn't fly too well.

Jamie is right.

And Bob, about this: I think my freedom is more valuable than whatever profits oil companies might get from Oregon self-service ban

If you think you can convince those of us who prefer the current system based on their own life experience (Pat R., Tom C, Paulie, Leyla, KM and others who agree but have not posted comments here) that your right to pump gas means we all should too, then I think you should try another ballot measure. Or talk to Randy Miller and ask how popular it was when he spent his entire legislative career trying to pass self serve gas.

Some of us see Oregon as a place where we are free to stay in the car while the gas is being pumped. You may not like it but claiming your freedom has been violated isn't going to change our minds. The oil companies are behind the self-serve crusade, and many ordinary people voted down the previous ballot measure for self-serve. Being sarcastic will not encourage those who like the current system to get out of the car in the rain and wind and pump their own gas just because you say so.

LT: No one is saying you should be forced to pump your own gas. Allowing self-service wouldn't prevent gas stations from having a full-service option. If you want full-service you sould get it and I want self-service I should get it. That's good for both of us.

Some of you may know that stop-lights were hand operated in the former East Germany. That's how Communism achieved full employment: lots and lots of make work.

I see no difference with "quick-serve" stations: low-cal Socialism. What is the State's interest, exactly? Keep Oregon Weird?

The high percentage of gas station employees that are smoking on the job really bugs me. They either leave the register unattended to run outside for a smoke, or (if they're pumping gas), they'll begrudgingly tamp it out to come over and pump my gas. You would think all those No Smoking signs would have more influence.

How about a law that BANS SMOKING on the entire property occupied by the gas station (employees, pedestrians, and customers). At least you can argue in favor of the safety benefits.

Let see if I have the sense of several "progressives" who frequent this site and a few less well recognized: Basically some of you are happy to let someone else pump gas for you because it is a threat to your health, but apparently you think it is just fine to let someone else ruin his or her health pumping the gas and breathing the fumes for everybody who is too privileged to have to work in a gas station. And for minimum wage, just so long as the minimum wage goes up a few pennies every year? And I detect a disturbing hypocrisy from many of you in comments about the stench of gasoline and your clothes - almost as if you are both too good to pump your own gas and kind of agree with the health argument, but know it would be just a little unseemly to come right out and say that.

Let me be blunt: I fail to see how there is any credible progressive argument against pumping your own gas in the rationalizations fairly dripping with condescension about how this about preserving minimum wage jobs --- particularly if those of you making this argument don't address what you believe to be the apparent dangers to the health of those minimum wage workers that you profess to care so much about.

And as far as I'm concerned the issue about cost also is a red herring for small minds to fight over.

I've pumped my own gas in more states than I care to count before and since I've lived in Oregon, in jeans and business suits, in hot sunny weather and snowy cold weather. I've even pumped it for some folks who seemed to be having a problem in a self-serve situation. It never once occurred to me that someone else should be doing it. I always hoped and assumed the rest of the world had something better to do with their time than pump gas for me. In Oregon, every time I get gas I just find myself wondering why has this state, including the progressive community, failed so miserably that folks don't feel they have better things to do with their time than pump gas for me? Sadly Anne, you have a least done me a service with this thread in throwing a new light on why.

"...you're supposed to put the nozzle into the hole before you start pumping."

I haven't read a word written after this sentence.

I mean, my eyes moved across the millions of letters, but I wasn't paying them any attention.

Dear Ask,

You proved why some oppose self serve (and if it were allowed anywhere, how long before it would be the only option in some places?).

I've even pumped it for some folks who seemed to be having a problem in a self-serve situation.

People who are afraid they might have a problem (had a problem with self-serve in WA or Calif., don't have a lot of hand strength, don't want to get out of the car in the rain and wind, have had the sort of experiences Pat Ryan described, are concerned about spilling gas on themselves, have children in the car and don't want to leave them unattended, whatever) are supposed to support self serve or never call themselves "progressive"?

That is why I don't like labels. Someone sent me the most recent Jason Atkinson email. Here are a couple quotes:

"Intoning a populist theme, Atkinson says his campaign is based on two words: hope and respect. In fact, the senator champions the Progressive Movement of 100 years ago when special interests in the United States were rebuffed and the "voice of the people" was strengthened. "

"Atkinson says he discounts the idea that leaders from both major parties are bound to a "business as usual" approach to governing, saying he favors "a conservative approach which is actually a populist approach … to give the people their government back."

When I think populist and progressive, I think of the Grange movement, Teddy Roosevelt, Robt. LaFollette, maybe McNary and some others of that era. I don't think of the bright young son of a religious broadcaster.

Now if someone wants to pump their own gas because every time they have done so in the past the pumps worked perfectly and they didn't have to stand in line at a slurpy counter or fuss with having to leave their credit card or cash with the cashier before starting the pump, so of course that sort of thing never happened to anyone else, be honest and say so.

So far the arguments in favor of self-serve seem to be "I want to do this, therefore you should want to do it to".

Sounds a lot like HOW DARE ANYONE QUESTION MY PROPOSAL?? Seems to me that is the Mannix/ Bush attitude of total wisdom which should never be questioned.

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On the occasions I have felt I needed to, seeking peace or meditation grounding, every attendant has relented to have me hold the nozzle in the fill pipe and with my free hand firm-grip the hose, taut black, now pulsing the blood of soldiers' dead hearts. When you take a feel of it.

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However, the gas stations can still stay full/mini-service and everyone else can have their gas pumped all they'd like. I'll even pay the same price as everyone else. I just want to be able to pull up, swipe my card, pump my gas, and be out of there.

Jenni--do you really believe that will happen? The gas stations we saw in California were not all like that. And what about people who pay cash for gas?

This is a problem in public discussions these days--someone has an idea based on their personal experience, therefore that is how it will happen for everyone else.

Jenni, I suggest you find former St. Rep. Randy Miller's contact information (shouldn't be hard to do) and ask him if that is the system he envisioned--those who want to pump their own gas will be able to, but all gas stations will have at least one attendant at the cash register and one more attendant to help people who don't want to pump their own gas.

As I recall, the bills usually did not mandate that, did not mandate even a place to wash gas off hands, did not deal with the question of what to do with a malfunctioning gas pump (or do you have faith that machinery never breaks?)did not deal with the situation in some gas stations in other states where they make you go in, give them your credit card or cash to hold while you pump (you are supposed to trust them?) go out, start the pump, pump the gas, go back in and get credit card or change or whatever.

Yes, there are machines where a credit card can be swiped. But would they be at every gas station? Seems to me you have a lot of faith "I just want to be able to pull up, swipe my card, pump my gas, and be out of there."

Most of the self-serve bills were very vague--something like "The State Fire Marshall shall issue a rule allowing self serve gas" and whenever people asked the sponsors why there were no regulations in the bill the attitude was usually some form of "go away, you bother me".

Now just because you have faith that if self-serve were instituted "I just want to be able to pull up, swipe my card, pump my gas, and be out of there." and "I'm sure plenty of people will still have the attendants pump their gas." does not mean the rest of us don't have the right to be skeptical that before long all the experiences we and our friends have had in WA and CA (like the ones Pat Ryan described) wouldn't happen here.

And telling us otherwise is not going to get us to support self-serve.

I just think about my parents who are completely baffled everytime they go to California. As soon as it went self serve you'd be waiting in line for 10 minutes behind an elderly 5th generation Oregonian that was staring blindly at the pump. In the first few weeks a few of these relics might actually go up in flames.

Old people actually vote -- so I don't see this changing very quickly unless we increase the immigration rate by a factor of two.

By then maybe we can have a discussion on mandating those super fast automated checkouts at Home Depot and Albertsons.

Tenskey:

"...now pulsing the blood of soldiers' dead hearts" is patently offensive to everybody to the right of Dennis Kucinich. You are against the war, and you're angry that it continues without your consent. We get that. It's poetic, but it remains patently offensive.

Even the 'soldiers per mile' refrain is getting a little worn.

In fact, we all use petroleum products, no matter how eco-friendly or tread lightly you think you are. Don't own a car? Good for you. Good old Tri-Met burns a million+ gallons of fuel per year.

Don't buy food at the grocery store? Even better. Because all of the food on your table was farmed with diesel tractors and implements or (if you grow your own), the other comforts of life spent at least the last couple of miles on the back of a diesel truck.

Is there a direct linkage between my consumption of petroleum products and the maintenance of war in Iraq. I think not. We could quit importing oil tomorrow (at great economic hardship), but that would not induce the Bush Administration to withdraw from Iraq, or take a pass on preventing an Atomic Iraq. Give it a rest.

"Atomic Iraq" should read "Atomic Iran".

Yeah, right.

Would someone please zip on up to the 'Couv and do a quick census of how many stations are pure self-serve and how many offer the full-serve option?

Two obvious responses: There are more full-service options in Vancouver than there are self-service options in Oregon. And if your right, this only shows that given the choice people prefer to it themselves. If it were otherwise more Vancouver gas stations would offer full-service. The point is pumping gas is not an area of our life that we need governement to tell us what to do. Educate me: what was the great problem Oregonians were trying to fix when they instituted the ban?

I still don't understand on how a ban on pumping your own gas is any different than a hypothetical ban on bagging your own groceries. The same arguements apply. What's so speical about pumping gas?

askquestion1st, well said. A ban a self-service is in no way progressive.

I would much rather pump my own gas. In my experience, gas stations don't staff the pumps very well, so that something that should take 5 minutes takes 15 minutes, as some poor bastard runs back and forth between 12 different pumps, trying to remember who got there first, who wants a fill, who wants five dollars, etc.

Of course, this assumes that the attendant is actually concerned with getting cars in and out. We used to go to one station where the attendants -- invariably hanging out off to the side, smoking and listening to the radio -- moved so slowly that one would have suspected that the atmosphere around them were made of gelatin, and they had to force their way through.

But my favorite attendant was a fellow we used to call "the man with 13 words." The 13 words consisted of the word "pump," followed by the pump number. So you pull up and get out of the car as he tears himself away from the radio and cigarette and slowly drifts your way. Then you start the conversation with "hi, could you fill it with regular please." To which he would respond "pump six," or "pump ten," or whatever, never anything else. Upon leaving you would say "thanks very much," to which he would sometimes respond with a kind of grunt, like "wuh."

So thank you very much, I'll pump my own gas.

I don't know, maybe self serve is always quicker in Texas, but often on my trips to california it takes longer than I'm used to to get gas from the attendant behind the slurpy counter. And, Anne, you sure did push my button with your elitist slur pointed at pump jockies (it can be a really fun job at a busy station). I did it for a couple of years in my youth. I never used meth and i have to say that the people I worked with were solid honorable people. Of course, like most jobs, It payed a lot better in those days.

Interesting debate. If anyone really wants to pump their own gas they can do so right now. Pacific Pride has card lock stations all over the place. I don't know what they're charging for gas right now, but a few years ago my brother was paying around 10 cents a gallon more than I was in Mulino, although that could have been a local business overhead issue, the station is on SE 8th and Main in Portland.

Don't have a business to qualify for a card lock? Register a DBA in your county, it only costs $20 or so, or just print up some business cards. I don't think Pacific Pride is too choosy about who they set up an account with. Their stations are usually empty, so you'll be able to just pull up, fill your tank and go. I think they all have pumps with card slots as I don't see any attendant of any kind at any of the stations I've been around, so it seems to be pretty much automated.

Theanalyst - About the slow moving attendant. We have one out here at the Cheveron station in Mulino. If he moves any slower I think he'll actually be stationary, lol.

As far as pumping my own, I can or not. Doesn't make much difference to me, although 7,600 jobs is a lot, and I refuse to use the self check out at any store as eventually those will eliminate the checker's jobs, and I figure if the store is going to start cutting positions, they can bloody well drop their prices accordingly.

C'mon folks... won't SOMEBODY PLEASE answer Bob's question? He's asked it twice now, and it's just plain rude to keep ignoring him - if you feel it's the government's job to mandate employment of gas jockeys, should they also do so for grocery baggers? After all, similar to the argument that pumping your own gas could be unhealthy or unsanitary for you, bagging your groceries could result in paper cuts and smashed eggs. And crumbled bread doesn't fit in my toaster very well, dammit.

Should gov't also mandate that Fred Meyer MUST eliminate the self-checkout, because it reduces checker positions? Should we move the freakin' coke dispenser back behind the counter at Burger King? For that matter, maybe we should eliminate Internet shopping, because every purchase you make there is one less at a brick-and-mortar store, thereby reducing their need for employees.

These may sound a bit silly, but c'mon, if it's good for one industry then it's good for others, right?

So someone please answer Bob's question....

askquestions1st: almost as if you are both too good to pump your own gas and kind of agree with the health argument, but know it would be just a little unseemly to come right out and say that.

Some of these comments are too long for me to bother reading but I haven't seen any people saying they were too good to pump gas (or would rather pay someone to do something dangerous although I'm guessing more than a few of us have in our lives -- chimney sweep anyone? house painter? construction?). Sorry if I've missed those particular comments as they might exist. The original poster didn't seem to generous when describing the types of people employed at the stations but since she was arguing for self-serve, I'm guessing you don't mean her.

For me it's about 7600 jobs in a state with high unemployment. Besides, I like the guy who pumps my gas; he's nice and sometimes the only nice person I encounter in my day.

I've pumped my own gas and diesel (my parents had a tank on their property). I wasn't very good at it and I sincerely doubt anyone would want me filling their tank as I do tend to be sloppy. When I finish, I wipe the gas off my car and then lock & leave my car where it is and head for the bathroom so that I can properly wash my hands. That takes a bit of time but I'm sure you folks who are in a hurry won't mind because after all, it was your bright idea. When I'm done washing my hands and carefully opening the bathroom door with tissue (yea, I'm a clean freak), I'll go back to my car, unlock it, get in, put my purse on the seat beside me, perhaps adjust the stereo and all the other things I do while the station attendant would normally be filling my car and then put my seatbelt on, start the car and go. By the time I finish, I've added at least 10-15 minutes onto the time it takes to fill my tank.

Imagine if you were waiting in line behind someone like me who had NO experience pumping their own gas. Add the time above that my car is blocking your path to the time it takes to figure out the gas pump. The first time I pumped gas in Washington I tried a few times to get the thing to work and then finally went into the shop to ask someone for help. Turns out it didn't work the same way my parents' tank worked. I had to wait until he was done watching a football play and then he came out (slowly) to show me how to make the pumps work. I was there for more than a 1/2 hour. Maybe that's why a few people yelled nasty comments to me before they drove off. Now, imagine an entire state of people like that. Oooo fun. And time-efficient!

Pancho get it strait it is not cheaper to pump your own gas. I hate to inform you that your right wing b.s. is transparent. I agree that we should have the option to pump our own fuel out of convenience not cost savings because there is none. If anyone believes that the petro industry is going to save you money by going to self service I have some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

TAB -

Okay, so I went back and took another look at the postings. Perhaps you answered the letter of his note, but not the spirit of it - One of the main arguments on this board against self-serve is the elimination of 7600 low wage jobs. So my question, and I believe Bob's question, is "Why not do it for other industries? Why should gov't mandate employee levels for this industry but not others?" Bob wasn't asking HOW we got to this point, he was asking if the logic behind no self-serve would also apply to no self-bagging.

Maybe I'm dense, but in my mind, these questions still haven't been answered.

And since you mentioned it, let me ask one other question... Is it your position that every initiative passed by the voters should not be overturned by legislative or administrative bodies? 'Cause if so, we have a bunch of other things to discuss... like why light rail keeps expanding.

An outright ban on doing something for yourself that you are perfectly capable of doing is not "quirky," it's stubborn and retarded.

Am I the only one who finds this sentence somewhat offensive? And this from the COMMUNICATIONS secretary of our beloved (and living with a disability) Secretary of State, who is supposed to stand for our citizens.

Perhaps while penning a flippant screed words have less meaning, but to a person with a developmental disability, this just continues the pain.

From the poster Governor Kulongoski unveiled at the observation of Developmental Disabilities week/month/day which hangs in every state office dedicated to serving people with disabilities:

Some words do hurt. Using the word "retard" is not cool, funny or hip - it's just thoughless. No matter how the word is used, it is hurtful to people with disabilities. Think about your words. Don't use words that hurt.

askquestions1st makes a valid point about the health concerns of pumping gas. Attendants should be wearing solvent-proof gloves and respirators. I would want to if I worked as a pump jockey.

Anne, I realize you were trying to be funny, but I don't think a blogsite for progressives is a good place to argue for eliminating thousands of jobs while suggesting those workers use meth. I think you would be upset if someone else wrote that we shoud all do our own landscaping, and that all those illegal aliens were just using their pay to buy knives and underage prostitutes. Or is that your next post?

Larry,

The arguments FOR professional pumpers are about safety, access and cost. Preserving jobs is an argument AGAINST changing the present system. They are not the same issue from a political perspective.

RE: I still don't understand on how a ban on pumping your own gas is any different than a hypothetical ban on bagging your own groceries. The same arguements apply. What's so speical about pumping gas?

The most relevant matter is NOT a comparison of a ban on pumping your own gas, and a ban on bagging your own groceries.

The most relevant matter is a comparison of eliminating a ban on pumping your own gas which would render thousands of Oregonians unemployed, and instituting a ban on bagging your own groceries which would render thousands of Oregonians unemployed.

Both sound like bad ideas to me, and I'll bet they sound REALLY bad to those thousands of low income Oregonians who would lose their jobs.

Just a guess, but I think that maybe none of the advocates for this policy change would stand to lose their livelilhood if it were to come to be. In other words, they're not looking out for their neighbors, or they don't care.

Not very progressive!

Tubthumper is right. Is Anne saying that anyone with mobility (or hand strength ) challenges should not drive because every driver should be perfectly capable of pumping their own gas?

Forget all the stuff about eliminating jobs--if those like Anne say only people who would have no problem hopping out of the car in the pouring rain to pump their own gas should be driving, then SAY SO!

And 30 or 40 years from now, the young people who are so excited about hopping out of their cars to pump gas might see this differently. Or is this about self-centered "my way fits everyone" people?

Of course no one was suggesting that you were speaking for SOS. By being defensive, you missed an opportunity to rant without stepping on the disabilities community to do so.

my my. what you can start when you set out to be purposefully provocative...

Re the -- they're just a bunch of white trailer trash and who cares about their jobs anyway -- thing... Yeah, that one did cross a line. And I'd add, just think, these jobs cannot be outsourced. Someday some depressed out of work software engineer will take one of these jobs and it will pay him just enough to afford his Meth...

As for the - I don't want to wait around while the employee serves others -- thing, well I say that for me at least minor irritants take on a larger than life aggravating factor directly proportional to their reasonableness -- or lack thereof. In other words, I can wait for a busy, hardworking waiter or station attendant or retail clerk who is serving the person in front of me. With some patience. What really steams me is when I'm waiting in a long line at a self-serve gas station in California (yes, this is a true story, and yes, it happened to me sadly much more than once) because some idiot pulled up to the last pump, got out to pump his gas, and then the cars in front all pulled out and left their pumps open. Had there been SOMEONE in charge they would have, politely, directed the customer to pull up to the forward pump. Minus such a presence the customer grimly holds his place (hey, he'd have to get back in his car, turn it back on, and move forward. That would be a waste of his time and thus obliterate all benefit he gets from pumping his own...) And everyone in line behind him waits. Some of us, not so patiently. Personally, I consider myself the patient angel in this story, compared to my husband...

In my experience misery knows fewer greater champions than waiting in just such an idiot no-reason line in Sacramento in the heat of summer with kids in the backseat, fighting. You can see the open pumps just up there. They beckon. You cannot get to them. Then the person (I use that descriptor loosely as by that time I'm making certain presumptions re the individual's DNA) holding everyone up waddles (yes, I'm bitter, but note, I presume nothing about his economic or potentially self-medicated status) into the snack shop and can't decide -- coke or pepsi...

Ah yes, good times. Good times.

All this, and hands that smell of gas. If only we are "man" enough...

"What really steams me is when I'm waiting in a long line at a self-serve gas station in California (yes, this is a true story, and yes, it happened to me sadly much more than once) because some idiot pulled up to the last pump, got out to pump his gas, and then the cars in front all pulled out and left their pumps open.... And everyone in line behind him waits. Some of us, not so patiently."

THAT's what really steams you? Can I just say "get a life"?

No ethic of gas station behavior requires him/her to interrupt his activity for your convenience. Every ethic of civility and politeness and just being a friendly human being requires you to sit patiently until he/she is done.

What planet are you on? Planet BMW? Planet Entitlement? Planet I'm So Rich That Nobody Should Get In My Way?

Dick Cheney is worth getting upset about. American Fascism is worth getting upset about. Waiting in line politely is what adults do.

The thought of someone like you being pissed off because you have to wait a whole five minutes in your car almost makes me happy... except that I feel bad for taking pleasure in your misery... but not really bad.

I'd say you really belong in another state, surrounded by people with another state of mind. I hope you find one that suits you better soon. Your unhappiness makes those around you unhappy.

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Oh, I think you're funny too, as unhappy people can sometimes be. I particularly like crack about Meth... but still, just go away for your happiness and ours.

We Oregonians sure can get worked up about gaspumping, LOL. By the way, I am not a native and pumped plenty of gas before moving here. I have learned to love full-serve along with many of the other charms of my adopted home state.

Rarely does such an obvious example expose the faux front of Progressive-Labor solidarity. It would be better for Progressives to let the Labor anchor go.

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The way it is, it is easy to find a station with a nozzle jockey who is gladly willing to let you pump your own. If you want to, or if you have a fancy car or a fancy paint job, or you're just finicky. Ask.

The way it is, we have it both ways. Sometimes you can feel like a pump nut, sometimes you don't.

But what about the way it is going to be?

If you knew now that gas is going to be $5.00 a gallon in six months, would that change anything you do now?

Or, forget gas altogether. Get away from it before it runs out on you. Get a bike. And change the subject to My Issue -- Proposed: Abolish daylight savings time. Never spring up to fall for it again. Don't tell the clocks to lie, use real time all the time.

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Wow. Like I said, what you can start when you set out to be purposefully provocative...

Loved the pretzel-logic of when it is OK to be impatient waiting to be served (hint -- if you are in favor of self-serve gas it's ok to be impatient -- and when it is NOT, hint -- if you are a weeney gas station attendant-lover...) Fun.

Was crushed to learn the courageously self-identified "M" is not going to invite me to his/her birthday party...

Now, if I add a little smiley face will you puleeeaze calm yourselves down a bit? Take ten deep breaths and repeat after me "it's just a bit of malarkey, consistent in tone and substance with the original blog".

Or, am I presuming too much to think folks actually read the original?

Anne,

Your "cross a line" admission reinstates your prog cred with me. I still support Oregon's pump policy, though.

It'll all be academic when the gas is gone or we're filling up with hydrogen. "Just take your hands off the nozzle and back away from the pump, miss."

Well I was going to invite you to my party but I realized there would be a line for cake and an inebriated adult serving the cake ... really not your scene. :-)

"professional pumpers"??

Ha ha that is soo funny! Man, do I need to go to a school to get a degree in gssoline jockey?

And say, everyone here loves how the "pros" top off your tank and contribute to pollution, right?

gosh. I'd pump my own gas willingly.

Perhaps, is is not that some people are too good to pump their own gas, but some oregonians just think they have to be different as in enlightened. 48 other states manage, are we not that adaptable? No, oregon is not the norm, as in something special. Given that fact that it is illegal in oregon to pump your own gas but legal to commit suicide, along with the blazers, beavers and the state of its education system, oregon is not held in high regard outside its borders. Sometimes different is not better.

Everybody take one step back...

Now breathe deep...

And release...

I've lived in Oregon for quite awhile and lots of places where you pump your own. Pump jockeys are becoming a rarity in self-serve states, you take your chances of getting one. Yep, I can call them pump jockeys, because I've been one. For Anne and the rest of you Libertarian Yahoos, the only reason you have one darned thing is because somebody is out there working with their hands, and mostly they get poorly paid to do it. I bang nails for a living and employ several people to help me do it, by your estimation, we're about 1/2 step up from monkeys and bannanas will do for pay and the rest of the no-count trailer trash minimum wage workers aren't even that 1/2 step up. Your ability to push paper around may impress you, but fifty years after you're dead and dust my work will be lived in and enjoyed. That guy out there jerking gas will try to move up and come out with me, or something, but in the name of your libertarian nonsense you're happy to yank the rug out from under him.

As a native Minnesotan who pumped my own gas when it was 20 below with a 30 mph wind, I am always amused when someone suggests western Oregon weather as a reason for not having to pump your own gas. That said, when Minnesota changed to allow pump your own the promise was that there would be full-serve at every station. That did not last long and finding a full-serve pump is now a rarity even if you still want one when its 20 below.

There are dangers to having people pump their own. Anything from someone smoking a cigarette, to a cell phone to static electricity can set off a pump fire. An attendent will help prevent those, so the safety argument is not entirely bogus. But lets face it, the reason for keeping full service is convenience. Its a lot easier to hand the attendent your credit card than to get out and pump your own. And if you are on a trip and need a bathroom break you don't have to wait until the gas is pumped.

Frankly, if waiting for gas station attendents is a major problem in your life you need to drive less. Take the bus, ride a bike or walk. You will find that the once a month trip to the gas station isn't very much of a problem. And just appreciate the days you don't want to get out of the car to fill up.

This is hilarious! Anne is a nonsensical Libertarian? Have you read any of her previous posts?

Like folks have posted, there are lots of jobs that have been eliminated by advancing technology and convenience in the last 20 years,and lots that have been created.

When gas jockeys became some sort of sacred cow I don't know. Let's just institute a five cent gas tax and use it to pay their friggin' salaries. Because that's all this is.

Nonsense is nonsense. I don't have to worry about machines taking my work or getting offshored, illegals ARE eating the bottom out of already poor wages, but it'll still be there. John, I have no idea what you do for work, but I rather doubt you'd be quite so cavalier if it were your job...That's libertarian nonsense, I've now got mine, screw you.

There's a serious disconnect with labor amongst the "educated," they become disposable. Folks seem to have the idea that wealth grows out of paper, sorry to be a drag, but that paper is based on real concrete items, without them it isn't as useful as toilet paper (or as comfortable). We have created an educational and societal attitude that labor is a second class endeavor, I am strongly reminded of the late 1800s. Too bad that it may be a Darwinian solution that corrects that ignorance.