Ms. Albright's comments about each wave of immigrants wanting to slam the door behind them is sooo true. Everytime I hear about one of the many Irish surnamed commentators on the right, I think of the "Irish Need Not Apply" signs that were common in the early 20th century. Not to mention the betrayal of their American heritage; we probably wouldn't have progressive politics without Irish immigrants.

I would make another point, though, to help explain part of the phenomenon, certainly not to defend it, as it is short sighted, hypocritical and just plan stupid. I blame corporations for a significant part of the anti-immigrant attitude. It applies mainly to illegal immigrants, though not exclusively. I really feel that "the job Americans won't do" is to gratuitously break the law at their employers' behest. Particularly in the fast food industry I've seen too many cases where established nationals can't advance into management positions occupied by recent immigrants. In each case the immigrant manager regularly violated labor and health and safety laws, as the franchise owner desired, while subordinate workers complained about the law not being followed. I've also run into the attitude that says that American culture, as it stands today, is more free than the totalitarian society they escaped, so it's good enough, stop complaining and get to work. The immigrants become easy targets, as the corporation is such an amorphous thing to tackle. Daniel Quinn, in Ishmael, said something to the effect that we're all in cages but we can't find the bars. It's too easy to pick on the immigrant that's standing right there in front of your face.

Ultimately I think what I describe is another form of immigrant exploitation and the failure of government to teach progressive civics in orientation classes. We should also make it easier for new arrivals to learn English. I used to think that we should be learning their languages- and still do- but after having been in their position I'm a little less open minded on the subject. I lived two years in Holland, trying to emmigrate, where EVERYONE speaks English (better than the average high school gradutate here). Yet, neither I, nor the Dutch, could imagine my living there without learning Dutch. Wittgenstein said that "to imagine a language is to imagine a form of life". I don't object to Spanish speakers, for example, I have my reservations about Spanish syntax. It's hard to talk about personal responsibility when the language's syntax is telling you, "It made me late", or "It made me pregnant".

I don't want to be grumpy here, because I honor and treasure our great tradition of immigration and being a refuge for the oppressed. But we have a real problem - besides the terrorism one. People are coming into this country to take advantage of our social programs without giving anything back. They are refusing to assimilate, refusing to learn our language, and polluting our cities with graffiti and trash. I don't care that it is politically incorrect to say so. There is a good reason why people are getting tired of immigrants. I applaud and greatly respect those gutsy immigrants who come here and make a better life for themselves and their families by working hard, contributing positively to our society, and becoming Americans. They do this without losing touch with their own history and traditions while still melting a bit in the American pot - people have done that here since the beginning. But we are all being worn down by the undermining of our own culture, social fabric, and economy by the dead weight of leeches hiding behind the great tradition of immigration and expecting us to like the fact that they are here.

i say they can have it...this country stinks anyway. at least some new blood might liven the place up a bit.

Exactly right, Becky. But the hilarious irony is that the backbending double-flips done in the interest of political correctness will prove to have been quite useless when the Republicans manage an amnesty bill, and accrue unto themselves a huge block of what will be perennial political support from the largest minority.

For me, the immigration issue is more nuanced than simple racism.

Our current situation is not an accident; it is a choice. Immigration has always been a tool to keep wages low, break or otherwise hinder unions, evade legal barriers to profit maximization, etc. Who chose? The people who control our legislature, who also happen to own the businesses that utilize illegal immigrants. There's real money to be made on illegal immigrants.

9/11 or no 9/11, secure borders are a good thing. Illegal immigrants are one of the more benign things crossing our uncontrolled borders.

People are desparate to come to the U.S. because their country of origin is failing to create and nourish an environment that meets their needs. For example, the government of Mexico is an utterly corrupt oligarchy whose policies are designed to nourish a tiny elite at the top of the economic pyramid. By allowing immigration from Mexico, we are co-enabling a corrupt and repressive government. We are relieving the pressure on the Mexican government to reform itself in a way that meets the needs of all its people. By doing so, we are ensuring that the Mexican government will never reform in any meaningful way and that immigration from Mexico will be a permanent fact of life. Unless fundamental reforms are made in Mexico, immigration, whether legal or illegal, will never stabilize. Half-jokingly, we should provide all illegal immigrants with weapons and send them back to overthrow their corrupt governments.

Wouldn't it be far better to deal with the cause of the problem - corrupt governments in Latin America and elsewhere - than to maintain our current system? Wouldn't it be far better for Mexicans to have opportunities in their own country and not have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles in search of opportunity in the U.S.? The current system is lose-lose for poor Americans and poor Mexicans and it is win-win for rich Americans and rich Mexicans.

Those who focus on race when talking about immigration issues are playing into the hands of those who benefit from our current system. Racism is a form of classism, because it seeks to place someone in a lower social class based on their race. Poor Americans and poor Mexicans are being played off against each other, when both want essentially the same thing: the opportunity to better themselves in their own country. That, in my humble opinion, is the real issue.

Right on, Mike! It's all about the money. Isn't it absurd to have this ugly Mexican government so close to home but feel the need to change the one furthest from our reach?

At the same time, Becky is right. The hispanic immigration is unlike the previous immigrants in that there have been Mexicans crossing the borders for decades without there being any meaningful assimilation. My girlfriend works in the nursery industry and she reports that her crew was uncovered by the INS to all be illegal immigrants. Next day they all came back to work with new Social Security numbers and, upon advice of their attorney, were all hired back. The atty reported it was necessary not to have prejudice that the documents were illegal based on their prior offense. Our immigration legal system does not reinforce the policy. In this instance, it fails to support the intent of other laws.

There is one thing to consider in this instance. The employer is good intentioned and their pay, as far as anyone knows is all reported, so these people are financing a social security program from which they will never make any recovery. And, thanks to my girlfriend, the crew, who are all femals, are all learning English and being given positions of responsibility that defy their machismo culture. One is even fluent in Excel handl;ing their inventory, despite having limited english abilities and education. The brains were there in any language and were valued and rewarded.

Jeff -

Don't put words in my mouth. First, there's a big difference between migrant workers and immigrants. Migrant workers come up here to find work but remain citizens of Mexico. Immigrants become citizens. We're talking about immigrants.

Maybe you want to be blind to the problem of some immigrants refusing to assimilate, taking advantage of our system, and destroying the aesthetics and livability of our communities, but that won't make it go away. You might want to consider that both sides have a good point to make in this debate.

But since you brought up migrant workers, let's talk about that for a minute. I've seen what these people are like up close, having lived in Woodburn for 8 years. They're not typically the kind of people who paint graffiti all over the place and trash our towns. They tend to be good, hard-working family-oriented people. They don't assimilate, but why should they, as you said? If I were in their shoes, I'd sneak over the border, too.

On the other hand, you can go to Los Angeles and find any number of immigrants of all strips who engage in gang behavior, take advantage of the system, and basically cr*p all over our cities. Los Angeles was a nice place to live 30 years ago. Now many of those nice areas are overrun. We can blame this on a laundry list of things because it is a very complicated problem, but I am certain that certain immigrant issues should be on that list. And since that is the subject du jour, I spoke my mind. Incidentally, most people make their minds up based on anecdotal evidence observed in their own lives. So perhaps you ought to take pause to consider why so many people in communities that have attracted large number of immigrants feel this way. It can't be for no reason.

Jeff, anyone who knows anything about me knows I am well aware of the "craven politician" problem. It's always in the forefront of my mind. But in real life we have to consider other factors, too now and then.

Discussion and debate! Good on both of you. I hope all of us can let go of our predetermined opinions and learn something.

My great-grandparents and grandparents came here from Norway and got lots of hard mouth from some Americans who got here 20 or 200 years earlier. Hard mouth and hard fists sometimes for not speaking English very well. I think painting an entire ethnic group with labels like "unwilling to assimilate" and "taking advantage of the system" is wrong and stupid. Use some more qualifiers, please.

Especially since our system is set up to encourage people to work illegally -- but not to claim benefits. Simply by ignoring the problem, we allow our own little piece of the 3rd world to sprout up here. I spent last summer taking migrant laborers blood pressures at work camps in the Willamette Valley... and was impressed by just how hard those folks work.

Jeff -

My husband grew up in Los Angeles. He's 42. He had a wonderful childhood - could ride his bike around freely, etc. He's taken me back to the old neighborhood and it's overrun - yes, I'll use the word - with gangsters and graffiti.

You act as if I have made a blanket statement against all immigrants, or even against all immigrants of a particular race or origin. Not so. I think you are hyper sensitive to that and you are turning my observations into blanket statements. My beef is with those who are opposite of the norm, those who behave badly. And I'm saying that because they stick out like a sore thumb and don't appreciate this country, they bother people and people complain about them. They give all immigrants a bad reputation. Statistical data won't show it as a big problem because they're not in the majority, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of them and it doesn't mean they aren't a very real problem. I'm rather surprised you haven't seen the problem, but considering how little you know about LA perhaps you just haven't traveled as often for as many years as I have or lived in as many places. I assure you, I didn't grow up in the wealthy suburbs. I've seen some serious transitions occur in neighborhoods over time. Like I said (and you've apparently chosen to ignore) these problems are very complex, but I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that whether or not people like you want to hear it, there's truth to this statement: some people who have come here recently have not caught the American dream - or perhaps they haven't explained it to their children.

I don't even know what to say about your accusations of racism. That's insulting. Disagreement over this issue is no excuse for pulling out that old standby. Are you telling me no white people immigrate? Or do you automatically give people a pass on misbehavior if they're of a non-white race?

I think in reality you are taking out your hatred of racists on me because I happened to mention there is some reason behind people's antagonism at this point in time to immigration. Don't radicalize my statements just to satisfy your sanctimonious views.

Anne asked why there is so much animosity and vitriol focused on immigrants. I'm just trying to answer her question. You may not find my answer reasonable and it may not fit within your own observations, but it clearly DOES fit within the observations of a lot of people, hence the reaction. I've seen these problems with my own eyes, so all these noble sounding assertions don't convince me and they won't convince others who have also seen the problem. I also don't buy the notion that poverty causes people to join gangs and paint graffiti. A lot of that is cultural. Somehow we need to nail down what is going on and fix it. Otherwise, I believe people will be less and less willing to support open borders and less willing to give immigrants a chance.

Jeff -

I respect very much your position of basing public policy on facts and science versus individuals' subjectivbe observations, and that is why I hang out here and prefer discussions with "liberals" over discussions with "conservatives." I don't know if I can satisfy all of your questions.

You ask me how I can know a number of things. I can only in return ask you how you can know what you assert? I certainly don't want to fall prey to snakeoil salesmen - I exert a tremendous amount of energy trying not to do just that, but it seems every time this reforming right-winger turns around there's another preconceived notion I have to reconsider. This crazy intellectual/educational ride feels like it's a bit out of control sometimes, to be honest with you. Anyway, I don't feel that I'm making my point understood and can't quite figure out why that is, so I'll keep trying.

Now I know people will immediately jump to the conclusion that it is racist to observe that in some minority communities (not all of which are non-white) a number of people refuse to learn English and don't become part of the "American culture." Sometimes it's overlooked because they're not destroying the aesthetics of the community, so no one cares. But in some of these communities there is a complete lack of respect for the pride so many of us take in our country. And people are offended by it. One example, which again I know will be labeled racist, is the gang/graffiti problem that is so easily linked to communities of Mexican and Central American immigrants - and having just come back from Mexico I was actually shocked to see that it's even worse as soon as you cross the border. You also see in certain areas a lot of problems with Asian gangs, Russian mafia, and so on. This un-American behavior makes people feel unsafe and they react negatively to it.

I've also heard complaints over the years from many people who are offended by cultural differences between immigrants, though sometimes the complaints are petty or show a lack of compassion. For example, I once heard some people complain that Russians who came here a few years ago tended to be so used to having to fight for every scrap of food, including standing in bread lines, that they had no manners at potlucks and would just grab entire trays of food and take them back to their own tables - it's a silly complaint if you think about it, but that's the sort of cultural differences that cause people to have problems with immigration.

I don't blame economic collapse per se on immigrants, though maybe others would (though you can't paint up an area with graffiti and throw garbage around and then expect property values to go up). Personally, I just find it very offensive when these people disrespect the hard work and investments of others in building nice communities and providing a social safety net. And I have repeatedly said I don't consider this to be the case for all immigrants, and I don't apply these statements to all members of any particular immigrant group. For example, both of my sons have a number of very close friends whose families are recent Mexican immigrants. They come from closeknit families with hard-working and very pleasant parents. I know that is the norm. I also understand why they come to America and am glad for them that they have the ability to do so.

Again, the question being asked was why do Americans react badly to immigration. In my opinion it is because the few who don't respect our country are so completely irritating that they color people's view of all immigrants. The thinking is this: if these people are coming in here, and two or three generations later their children are trashing the place, why should we let any more of them in?

And please don't attack me for telling you what I hear people saying. It's an issue that a lot of conservatives are talking about, and I'm just trying to help you understand where they're coming from. If you care. Which I thought Anne, at least, did, because she asked.

Well, looks like Becky has been badgered into better behavior. Since this is a discussion, and not a citation/proof venue, I also will stick with rhetorical argument.

The old "anti-immigration = racism" argument doesn't play well or fairly in this new age. The new immigration is new. It is 80 percent illegal. The immigrants are forced northward owing, as Mike Austin very savvily pointed out, to bad trade and political policies. Estimates are that 80 percent of Mexicans now immigrate illegally, and 70 or 80 percent of the methamphetamine traffic stems from there. Gang warfare is spreading also.

These new "immigrants" come to take advantage of work and welfare. They send as much money as they can "home." The US isn't, for most, the new "home." It is at best a place to earn money to send home.

A real progressive policy would force a wholly different political interplay between the government of the US and the spectacularly corrupt one of Mexico. That is the source of any "guilt" or responsibility that the US has for the hundreds of thousands of illegals streaming in yearly.

As Mike said, "The current system is lose-lose for poor Americans and poor Mexicans and it is win-win for rich Americans and rich Mexicans."

There is a surprising level of cognizance on the ground about this, because the reality is so obvious and so widespread. Only the political parties pander and sidestep. The too-bad thing for Democrats is that I bet, as I said, that the Repubicans beat you to the political punch. They will extend amnesty, and that will gather them a substantial portion of the new voting bloc.

Meanwhile, the employer exploitation will skip merrily along, and a new second-world country is being created right here at home.

More than 80 percent of the immigrants come from Mexico and other parts of Latin America. (Fewer than 10 come from Asia.) The vast majority are illegal.

What is happening is not "immigration" in the traditional sense. It may be merging of the countries in a new sense. To compare everything black history in the US is dishonest or deluded. They may be well-intentioned or guilt-ridden, but they are not in their current form "progressive" much as they would like to think anyone of different opinion is just bigoted.

As Mr. Austin said above:

"Those who focus on race when talking about immigration issues are playing into the hands of those who benefit from our current system. Racism is a form of classism, because it seeks to place someone in a lower social class based on their race. Poor Americans and poor Mexicans are being played off against each other, when both want essentially the same thing: the opportunity to better themselves in their own country. That, in my humble opinion, is the real issue."

One site for facts 'n figures: http://pewhispanic.org/

NPR had a devastating series on Marketplace (I believe) a few months back on the reality in Juarez.

Be very very scared. It is for fostering that that the US bears some complicity in the vileness that is Mexico.

I figured to find some heat in this topic, and also some confusion of terms, I find quite a bit of difference between "immigrant", "migrant laborer", and "illegal alien". I do have an issue with illegal aliens, beyond the establishment of an underground illegal culture. My employees are carpenters and roofers and they're all legal citizens and are paid all the wages and taxes due, and yet I compete in a market where contractors pay illegals subpar wages, avoid workers comp (25% of wage), avoid SS & Medicare ( 7.7% of wage) and all other witholdings, cut my throat at bid time and pocket the diffeence. Wouldn't you suppose that depresses my guy's wages? And it's that, or find something else to do. Does anyone expect me to feel compassionate for those fleeing their corrupt nations for profit so they and greed head employers can profit? I'm supposed to get all teary eyed for cheats and criminals while my hard working honest employees are getting screwed?

I figured to find some heat in this topic, and also some confusion of terms, I find quite a bit of difference between "immigrant", "migrant laborer", and "illegal alien". I do have an issue with illegal aliens, beyond the establishment of an underground illegal culture. My employees are carpenters and roofers and they're all legal citizens and are paid all the wages and taxes due, and yet I compete in a market where contractors pay illegals subpar wages, avoid workers comp (25% of wage), avoid SS & Medicare ( 7.7% of wage) and all other witholdings, cut my throat at bid time and pocket the diffeence. Wouldn't you suppose that depresses my guy's wages? And it's that, or find something else to do. Does anyone expect me to feel compassionate for those fleeing their corrupt nations for profit so they and greed head employers can profit? I'm supposed to get all teary eyed for cheats and criminals while my hard working honest employees are getting screwed?

<h2>Oh yeah, Immigration and Naturalization couldn't be less interested in the violations...</h2>