The only sane Oregonians live in Multnomah County (west of I-205), Washington County (east of the Beaverton city limits) Eugene, Corvallis, Cannon Beach and Ashland.

This isn't even funny as a joke. Or rather, even if intended seriously, it isn't funny.

Kerry won Oregon not just because of the enclaves, but because of all those purple counties. Far from ignoring the vast expanses of suburban Oregon, Dems must take an active interest in healing and urbanizing those places to the extent that people there are interested. As in the rest of America, suburbia will always hold the balance of power. (In Oregon, that means Washington, Clackamas, and Marion Counties, which are collectively enough to be the bellweather every time.)

Your list of enclaves also ignores the fact that there's an economically less advantaged tier of blue-collarish cities that also seem to be voting D. The blueness of Clatsop County isn't just Cannon Beach: humble Astoria and even gritty Seaside are also part of the mix. Ditto with less-loved places like Albany.

Let's define blue Oregon in ways that are principled (this is who we are) rather than exclusionary (who we are is NOT those people ...)

Peace, J

Jarett- I very much appreciate your post.

Randy: Thanks for stopping in!

Pat: I'm not questioning your background. But I'm questioning what you wrote.

Jane Q Reader, stumbling into this blog and reading your "only sane Oregonians" comment, will get confirmation of her worst suspicions of the blue intellectual elite, especially in that list of cities where the "only sane" ones live. If she's a typical Seaside convenience store owner with an undercurrent of resentment at all those Volvos from Cannon Beach, well, you might just push her over the edge ...

The sentence of yours that I quoted is both untrue and counterproductive. And for that reason, it diminished the credibility of Blue Oregon for me, as I expect it would for other readers.

That's all. Not questioning your credentials. Just noticing what these words might do, as they wander out into other people's heads.

Peace, Jarrett

I have to agree with CC. The attitude that politics is Portland-centric is what drives those in counties like Marion up a wall. Why get involved in politics if a place like Marion County doesn't count? Caucus, FuturePac, et. al. did a lousy job in Marion County. Betty Komp won because she was a strong candidate who almost won last time and was running against a weak candidate. Some of us get the impression that there are Democrats would rather have all legislative candidates fit into some little cookie cutter designed by Portlanders than actually win seats in Marion County.

Pat: If you have to explain, you've already lost your audience.

Me, I have a PhD in literature. I know great irony when I see it. This isn't it.

You need withdraw or fix your post, Pat, becase it's clear from the responses that it didn't work. And taken literally, as CC and LT did, it hurts our cause.

Yeah Jarrett!

Pat, How do you intend to win over voters by saying condescending things like this?

To that end I use irony like a lot of other posters on this blog and elswhere. If you find the use of irony to be inappropriate, I'm sorry that you feel that way and I refuse to change my style. If, on the other hand, you just don't get it, well I'm sorry that you don't get it and I still refuse to change my style. I can promise to be even more broadly sarcastic going forward......................<<

Pat, My guess is you have never known many split ticket voters--the sort that voted for Bush and also for Hooley because both were doing a good job, or a Republican who voted for Kitzhaber over Denny Smith for Gov. because one was serious and the other was just another slick politician, or for "that nice young man" who a co-worker had watched grow up against an intrenched Republican legislator.

Some of us have been around long enough to remember when there was a seemingly invincible Democratic Oregon House majority and active Democrats debated whether the party role was winning elections or telling people how / what to think.

I have known people who were really successful in politics. I have known really sarcastic political operatives. Generally the members of the 2nd group were not members of the first group.

If anyone thinks that sarcasm won any elections recently, I'd like a list of those.

CC is very kind. But irony that you have to sleep on to figure out isn't irony.

We Democrats may have done a good job in Oregon and elsewhere in terms of mobilizing the base and getting out the vote, but nationwide we fell down where it really mattered. That is, we failed to simply articulate a positive vision and program for reform. Simply put, a fractured Democratic Party doesn't know its message or even its audience

For more on these points, see:

"The Donkey Gets Its Ass Kicked: Five Lessons for Democrats"

"Less Than the Sum of Our Parts"

The truth is that all voters matter to winning candidates. Pat had it right about what is wrong with the DPO and Future Pac types when he said

The Kerry folks, after a quick assessment of the situation, determined to mine these groups as best they could for PR and volunteer opportunities. They were rewarded for their pragmatism and cooperation with cash donations as well. The DPO leadership, with hammer in hand could only think of these hundreds of volunteers as fundraising nails. They let it be known early on that they only wanted two things, money and compliance with extant dogma regarding best campaign practices. To this end, they were by turn obstructionist and dismissive and in the opinion of your humble scribe, wound up costing themselves tens of thousands of dollars that they could have reaped from these (now disgruntled) volunteers.<<<

The Kerry people treated voters better than the DPO people did. As a wise person (who was later elected to statewide office) once said to me, politics really is like sales. And valued customers are more likely to buy the product than customers who feel insulted or not being offered what they had decided to buy.

I was just watching an interview with Tom Frank, the author of What's The Matter With Kansas. I had videotaped it earlier. He said something about moving to DC from the S. side of Chicago and how different it was. People in DC would hear about working class voters and say "They're not important--the voters who are important now are....".

There is the answer to the "values" question, but perhaps not in the way intended by pundits. If there were Democrats (as I can imagine having met some and seen others on TV--incl. DPO types) who really said "you aren't the right demographic so you don't matter" and the Bush people said "You are important to us as hard working, church going people", then who would blame those blue collar workers for feeling VALUED by the Republicans?

Never mind that Rove et al. wouldn't give them another thought after Nov. 2.

I certainly have had experiences where I voted for the candidate who made me and my input/questions feel important, and against those who made fun of what I considered important or said "What you have to understand is...."

Actually, what candidates have to understand is that they are the sellers and voters are the buyers! For all the talk from politicians about doing things like a business, there is smart marketing and dumb marketing. I went to the store this afternoon to get a simple bag of cranberries with the cranberry sauce recipe on the back. I went to 3 stores which told me that those only came packed in those plastic containers like berries out of season come in, and at almost twice the price. Then I went to the discount grocery and discovered a large display of simple bags of cranberries with the recipe on the back and for the price I expected to pay. Guess where I bought my cranberries! Same thing with candidates--it is a free market. And if Democrats are not selling what voters want to buy, or if voters feel undervalued by candidates (like I did by most of those grocery stores), the voters are not going to buy Democratic candidates no matter how much the campaign has to spend or what "professionals" work on the campaign staff!

Yes, the NRA is effective, but in some ways people might not think about. Their Salem lobbyist was once a customer of mine years ago in a retail setting, and I have learned a lot from him.

In his posting, Pat said "One of the most efficient organizations when it comes to grassroots strategy is the NRA."

One thing I learned is that they had an email alert system bar none long before hardly anyone else did, and if an email was sent out "call State Rep. X about___" then the state rep. could get 150 calls within less than 24 hours.

But part of their strength was the man they hired as their lobbyist--smart, civil, willing to be friends with those who didn't agree 100%, clued in to the situation so that an answer to a question might be "Yeah, he's involved in a turf battle with---".

In other words, doing the hard work of what is actually going on. And more fact/less spin than one would ever see from the Bush crowd.

Well, no great writer here,(been told that) no long winded post will be made to show off the old sheep skin, (have none) but I can tell you "blues"why you got your butts kicked.

You do here, like JF Kerry did everyday on the road exhibit a rancid elitism that sucked anything of value you may have said that was worth a s---.

The real blue collar voters, ( blue potential voters).got sick of one way or another being told we were all stupid if we didn't vote your way.

We got tired of the gay marriage deal, we got tired of the half-postier BS OF "WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS, BUT NOT BUSH", that isn't even logical in a time of war, it kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day.

Bottomline.......better find the middle fast here and accross the nation or your rears will feel it again.

Jack, are you assuming that every construction worker, audiovisual technician, mechanic, retail worker voted for Bush?

The real blue collar voters, ( blue potential voters).got sick of one way or another being told we were all stupid if we didn't vote your way. We got tired of the gay marriage deal, we got tired of the half-postier BS OF "WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS, BUT NOT BUSH", that isn't even logical in a time of war, it kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day". << Are you a recent combat veteran? Where did you do military experience backing up your claim that not supporting Bush "kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day"?

Are you saying that anyone who marched in a Veterans Day parade, did volunteer work with combat vets, contributed to any sort of collection drive by local National Guard unit or group like Mothers of Marines but did so with a Kerry sticker on their car does not "support the troops" because the only real support troops need is a "support the troops and President Bush" bumper sticker?

I believe the wise party (either one) strongly supports veterans issues, incl. armor and other supplies. That the Republican candidates for Congress here barely talked about that issue--and lost---shows it to be a mainstream issue!

I would suggest that Jack find an article on the Washington Post site titled "The political veteran" and read about Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb), potential 2008 presidential candidate. He might discover that in many areas (esp. where war and veterans are concerned) Hagel and Kerry are in substantial agreement. And I would suggest that Jack visit www.optruth.com or www.vaiw.org. See that there are actual veterans who do not think support for Pres. Bush and all of his policies are necessary to "support the troops".

I would suggest that LT visit www.um,youlosttheelection.com, before admitting that whatever the limits of Jack's post, he might have a point.

Anthony, with or without the um and the , I got an error message saying the site could not be found. If you believe that if only all Democratic volunteers had joined evangelical churches then Cahill being a lousy campaign manager wouldn't have mattered, I doubt you are right.

Who have you ever voted for after they said something insulting / condescending?

I think winning campaigns are well organized and have a clear message. I doubt that Kerry would have won simply by speaking like a southern evangelical. Or have you forgotten that Reagan in 1980 defeated a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher and a Republican congressman who had been once been named evangelical layman of the year? (I supported John B. Anderson in 1980, so if you had me pegged for a lifelong Democrat....)

Or do you just want to insult everyone who failed to put a "Support the troops and President Bush" bumper sticker on their car? Is that because they only need symbolic support, not help with armor and supplies while in combat and help with the VA bureaucracy when they come home? If that is what you believe, let us all know your full name if you ever run for office and I will support someone else. And given what my efforts were in 2004 I refuse to believe that I alone lost the election.

Are you a recent combat veteran? Where did you do military experience backing up your claim that not supporting Bush "kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day"?\

No..my son has been in and out of Iraq 3 times, was nearly killed in mortor attack last 2 dyas he was there. My Daughter is going in March of 05, her husband, is combat medic there now, my Dad , WW2 combat in south Pacfic, my Uncle, in Korea, an then 30 yrs in Army...I MIGHT ASKED YOUR MOS TOO.

In these days of instant communication, you idiot, do you not get that CNN, ABC,Fox etc. isn't seen daily?

You are "off duty" (never in combat area) and the news calls the CIC all the things you all called him, it takes that focus of the mission to the toliet.

The above is fact, but I already know you missed it.

And by the way.Iam sick too death of the post election whine, get a gun and help out over there or use it to stop the whine here.

Or to put it simpler, there are those who talk and those who actually do something. The inventor of K Rations did more for combat troops than all the rhetoric there ever was.

Ancel Keys, K Ration Creator, Dies Heart Disease Study Broke New Ground

By Patricia Sullivan Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, November 24, 2004; Page A01

Ancel Keys, a University of Minnesota public health scientist who invented the K rations consumed by millions of soldiers in World War II, discovered that saturated fat was a major cause of heart disease and championed the benefits of the Mediterranean diet, died Nov. 20 at his home in Minneapolis. He was 100.

Or to put it simpler, there are those who talk and those who actually do something. The inventor of K Rations did more for combat troops than all the rhetoric there ever was.

LT. Were you an officer, or did you miss the boat?

Grunts like my kid, walked the walk, and talked the talk..what did you do LT? Did you learn from mistakes in combat, or posting on BlueOregon that when you lose an election that you spent hundreds of millions of dollars too win, and still lose, what did you learn? I know, perhaps I can offer some help on the subject.

LT,

First, Jack, in his rough eloquence, answers you better than I.

My point was that, despite the intelligence demonstrated by your post, you showed yourself incapable of appreciating what point Jack might have. One doesn't always have to go the extra mile to understand and give credit to one's opponent, but the context of this argument is that folks like you don't understand folks like him.

More importantly, you might have been demonstrating folly if you had merely squeaked to victory by ignoring people like Jack. But in this case, you LOST. Jack, whatever the limits of his arguments, at least had victory on his side. You only had smart-sounding arguments -- at best a fig leaf to deflect attention from the embarrassing defeat.

Perhaps my joke about the Web site was too subtle. Another intelligent person of my acquaintance also tried to check it out.

Let me offer you something more concrete: Spend your intelligence on understanding of your opponent's position -- especially if he's a little obscure -- rather than habitually (i.e., mindlessly) repairing to your preconceived framing of the question.

That might spare you from automatically arriving at irrelevancies such as the following, from your initial reply to me:

"If you believe that if only all Democratic volunteers had joined evangelical churches then Cahill being a lousy campaign manager wouldn't have mattered, I doubt you are right."

I must say, I was scratching my head at that non-sequitur. My thought in response was, "Since I don't believe that, perhaps I'm right after all!"

Of course, "what's good for the goose," etc., so I certainly did feel myself obliged to observe the connection of that statement to the relevant elements of your dialogue with Jack (if dialogue is the right word). But the most generous thing I can say is that it shows you clinging to the limited value of one of your stock arguments while studiously avoiding a serious apprehension of Jack's contribution, such as it was.

At least we've all learned something about K rations. Better than starving, no doubt, but I've heard mixed reviews from those compelled to eat them.

I guess the fact that we're having turkey tomorrow instead is one more reason to be thankful.

To LT and others......YEAH..what Anthony said!!!!

     Anthony, THANK YOU SIR!

What a terrible thing Jack and Anthony apparently think it is for someone to say "actions speak louder than words", to ask how anyone knows how all "blue collar" workers thought and voted, and to speak of an undefined "middle". This is what Jack said: "The real blue collar voters, ( blue potential voters).got sick of one way or another being told we were all stupid if we didn't vote your way.

We got tired of the gay marriage deal, we got tired of the half-postier BS OF "WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS, BUT NOT BUSH", that isn't even logical in a time of war, it kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day.

Bottomline.......better find the middle fast here and accross the nation or your rears will feel it again." and "when you lose an election that you spent hundreds of millions of dollars too win, and still lose, what did you learn? "

Is that the sort of respect for differing opinions mentioned in this post: "My point was that, despite the intelligence demonstrated by your post, you showed yourself incapable of appreciating what point Jack might have. One doesn't always have to go the extra mile to understand and give credit to one's opponent, but the context of this argument is that folks like you don't understand folks like him."

Is it a reference to the whole Kerry campaign to say "that you spent hundreds of millions of dollars too win, and still lose,"? I certainly didn't spend that money. If you mean that my presidential candidate lost, say so! Kerry lost my county (got about 45% of the vote) but won the state, and most of the other people I voted for won. So why should I feel a personal loss?

Who is meant by "We got tired of..." --people you know personally?

If you think you will earn my respect or get my vote with insulting language, you have a lot to learn about the art of persuasion.

Or maybe your message is "HA HA WE WON". How is that constructive?

Dear LT.

I will just start "fresh" with you and others, because my bias and "blind hatred" as it's been described is a problem I ADMIT!

I think the thing that concerns me most about the future of our country is the fact that we are split between two idealogies, and people on both sides are so passionate about their position and so hateful of the opposing side that we are unable to communicate with each other anymore. This whole situation on BlueOregon is typical of that problem. Nobody wants to stop yelling and try to hear what the other person is trying to say, and if you don't hear where they're coming from you can't undermine the faulty bases of their beliefs. Nobody will acknowledge any good intentions on the part of the other person. We've resorted to a sort of tribal metality that is very destructive and bode ill for our future as a country. I wish someone would just grow up, calm down, and start discussing things rationally.

LT, Do you have kids? Do you consider it your sole job as a parent, the protection of their lifes?

That is a calm question in order to have a worthy dialoge, lets see if that basic question gets a calm response. Jack Peek

PS. Steve S. said here, why the hiding behind phoney names, if you feel your'e right. defend it with your name, that too me shows something too. Jack Peek

First of all, as a prosecutor's grandchild, initials are a form of safety. If you have ever heard the Elvis Presley song Jailhouse Rock there is a line "the whole rythm section was the Purple Gang". They were gangsters in the Al Capone sense, not the youth gang sense. I would be perfectly happy if there were more politicians like Grandpa. He went from the prosecutor's office (helped put away the Purple Gang) to Republican AG to Supreme Court Justice in a midwestern state. He was honest, shared details of his proposals with the press, was more interested in solving problems than infighting or calling names/insulting ordinary voters who disagreed with him. Now political bosses, that was something else. But nowhere in his clippings (which I inherited) have I ever read insults aimed at ordinary citizens who supported a candidate he opposed. Quite the contrary, he stood up for ordinary folks.

You better believe I was brought up in a family where safety and security were paramount considerations. I take safety seriously and do not owe strangers my name! (Or whether I am a parent).

As far as the idea of polarization, not everyone is polarized. I have friends who voted differently on some ballot lines than I did. I wonder if Jack or Anthony could say the same. One such friend votes split ticket (as I sometimes do) and thus does not declare one party the fount of all goodness and the other party all evil. After a phone conversation where a friend said "everyone knows what liberal means" I wrote this friend and asked what he thought of that statement. This was his reply: "I think anyone who says that 'everyone knows what liberal means' and refuses or fails to define it clearly, is a bit close minded - and is just avoiding discussion because they do not want to consider what they think they believe. It is a label, a generalization, and means different things to different people.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.<<

Does that sound like a tribal mentality (I spelled that word correctly)? Or could it be there are polarizers but they are a minority and most folks would rather see problems solved than opponents bashed?

Today I heard the phrase "reciprocal positive energy" used in reference to successful relationships of all sorts. I wonder if Jack or Anthony can state the positive of their concerns. If you think we need more public information about the Oregon budget, that is a positive statement. If you believe that civil unions for gays are either good or bad, say so. If you heard from Sgt. S. Smith stationed in Mosul that everyone in his unit was thrilled Bush won because those supporting Kerry were ruining morale, say it in those terms, not ""WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS, BUT NOT BUSH", that isn't even logical in a time of war, it kills morale in combat, it kills those who are fighting and dont care about your ideas but only there goal too live another day."

I happen to know someone who has returned from duty in Iraq who is a registered Democrat. Was he supposed to believe that failure to support Bush was letting down troops? I have friends who have survived other wars, and they have a tendency to get angry when someone tells them what they believe.

Maybe that is not your experience. But there are those of us who have lived long enough to know that generally persuasion is more powerful than coercion, and that individuals usually have a broader spectrum of opinion that polarization into 2 "teams" would indicate.

But then I am a serious person. I have considerable experience in various areas of life that my friends know about. But there is no obligation to describe that experience to posters who make insulting remarks.

But then I am a serious person. I have considerable experience in various areas of life that my friends know about. But there is no obligation to describe that experience to posters who make insulting remarks.

For months I endured INSULTING REMARKS,from elitist lefties like you, REDNECKS, STUPID, TRAILER TRASH, BIBLE THUMPER, ETC. ETC. ETC.

The left has more education..no kidding! The kind that wreaks of arrogance and outright snobbery.

You put up a candidate that insulted me, the people that put Bush in for another term, you downgraded any effort at compromise, you took shots at the core beliefs of those that hold certain values, values that mean real things to real people.

The left went from liberial too "progressive" as that was supposed to mean something.

You people put AL FRANKEN AND FAT MIKEY MOORE on a pedestal and worshipped at their smelly feet, and for all of the above, YOU LOST!

And here in Oregon you think you won, WON WHAT?

The red states look at us and go, "TREE HUGGERS", TERROR CELL DEFENDERS, ANTI BUSINESS STATE, ANTI- EVERYTHING. Hell your so stupid, the city council chase's a losing baseball team to "enrich" the business climate of the community and gives the finger too getting a real money maker here, (NASCAR), because that is so redneck and so not Vera Katz's vision/ nightmare.

You chase a deal on GAY MARRIAGE, when the larger population of the country says NO! Two gay friends of my wifes and I leave Portland because they don't like the militant gays here an we lose two friends of 12 yrs.

The response I made too you LT was at the request of someone I respect and has known me for a few yrs and is aware of my fight for control of the "stupid idea that 5 criminally insane men who by decree of a court are judged guilty but insane of capital crimes lie murder, arson an rape, and are allowed 90 mins of unsupervised walks past a grade school.

Dealing with the same people you voted for and getting no where, starting in a respectful way and begging at times for commonsense and getting crapped on for my efforts left me back to the "style" of response you see here. Your too stupid and arrongant to see that there are people like me, SOME CALL US THE SILENT MAJORITY, that are finally mad enough to get off our apathetic rears and "can your rears " at the polls. So keep on LT ,08 is coming again.

"And we are the real Americans. They--rural, red-state voters, the denizens of the exurbs--are not real Americans. They are rubes, fools, and hate-mongers."

Dear LT: For the record it took no time at all to look around at the posts here before I "DARKENED" THE DOOR HERE.....too find one example of way to many insults that added up for us as "ammo" to come out and respond at the polls. You just don't get it.

And again for the record, Lets hope you continue this course, it's the slippery slope of the DNC,and people like you are leading it...."KERRY ON!"

LT,

My hope was to make what was, after all, a pretty straightforward point and be done. But since you persisted in bringing up my name, I felt the need to respond.

You essentially boast that, “not everybody is polarized,” and proceed to tell us that you’re the kind that has friends who voted differently on ballot lines. Leaving aside the embarrassingly self-congratulatory spirit of the comment, you seem blissfully unaware that you polarize our interaction into “we the enlightened, discriminating ones” and “Jack and Anthony types.” Other than my call to entertain the value of Jack’s contribution to the thread, what leads you group us together like peas in a pod? It would appear that, even if you haven’t explicitly “labeled” us, you most certainly have “generalized.”

Now it is true that if I had voted in the recent election, it would have been for the same presidential candidate that Jack supported. Perhaps we would have voted differently on some ballot lines — like you and your friends.

Since you wonder about the political diversity of my social connections, it happens that even my wife has a different political orientation than I, though we share convictions that I believe transcend politics. I wouldn't even be here at BlueOregon.com if I weren’t invited by relatives who happen to be active in the Democratic Party. They thought I would enjoy coming here and sharing my point of view – and they thought, moreover, that I might have something to contribute.

Jack can speak for himself, but whatever his social ties, he obviously enjoys encountering people with opposing views or he wouldn’t be here. Nor do I think he just comes here to hector. I think he genuinely wishes to get through to people, and I believe he is open to arguments from the other side. (Don’t prove me wrong, Jack!)

One point of difference between Jack and me is that I respect your wish to be anonymous.

Something else I do share with Jack is a preference for a more direct style of forensic encounter. I believe that contrasts favorably with your tendency to sanctimoniously pronounce from a lofty distance rather than grapple gamely with your adversary. But then you are a serious person.

Nor do I think he just comes here to hector. I think he genuinely wishes to get through to people, and I believe he is open to arguments from the other side. (Don’t prove me wrong, Jack!)

The above is correct, I want to see if we can pull us together. (Anthony,so much has happen,this maybe too much for me)I will work on it. I promise.

When someone I have never met assumes that I have called them names because I am the member of some "elite", I wonder why someone would "know" that I would use such language--esp. since I am very careful not to use such language to strangers as that is not the way I was raised.

This is the quote from the post: "For months I endured INSULTING REMARKS,from elitist lefties like you, REDNECKS, STUPID, TRAILER TRASH, BIBLE THUMPER, ETC. ETC. ETC."

Unless you can tell me the date and the county where I personally insulted you, I will have to conclude that since you had a bad experience somewhere you now believe anyone who questions your posts was one of those who personally insulted you.

If someone who attended church with family this morning and just finished cooking and eating Thanksgiving dinner (from scratch, mind you) is a "leftie", I would like to know what a "conservative" who is not a member of the elite did about Thanksgiving dinner.

Or would you rather harrangue than talk seriously?

Dear LT..Just ate too much,But just for you.

This election was more than a mandate for President Bush, but a loud rejection of blind propaganda politics, media biased elitism and jumping on the bandwagon without care who was driving. It is also an indictment of how a sense of fair play and objectivity were abandoned by News personalities and print editors. Their arrogant sense of knowing what's good for us better than we know it, was convincingly dismissed by the American electorate.

Ossama Bin Laden's network and state sponsors of global terrorism are the mortal enemy of every American, without consideration of political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, or religion, the USA is at war in Iraq and not at war with Iraq, the American electorate got it, in spite of collusion between the Democratic National Committee and elite media outlets strenuous efforts to portray President Bush in the role of our enemy. The American electorate came dangerously close to falling for it, instead the commonsense of the average voter prevailed. Terrorists networks are to be destroyed wherever they hide, along with whomever sponsors them. Peace is not the absence of war, it is achieved when your enemy can no longer wage war against you or your allies.

Marshall McCluhan, author of the American Mind, pointed out the impact of a steady diet of subliminal suggestion in product advertising conditioned consumer appetites. He laid out the blueprint for mass mind control with Madison Avenue ringing that salivating inducing bell. This election cycle demonstrated the proof of that Pavlovian conditioning theory made reality. Intelligent and educated Americans forgot the lesson of and name Todd Beamer; whose call to "Lets Roll," was a call to action, to fight terrorists though we die. His selfless action and courage spared us further disaster from that plane hitting the Capitol or White House. The mind numbing messages injected into the public psyche was lets do what the terrorists want before they really get mad at us. The Kerry/Edwards message was terrorism is a nuisance, a law enforcement problem, and can be resolved by chatting with a few world leaders and playing United Nations pay off politics. The gapping hole where the towers fell were all but erased from the national memory in a partially successful attempt to disassociate it from Iraq. Our news outlets forgot Ramzi Yusef's connection to the 93 WTC bombing, Ossama, Abu Sayef, Saddam and Oklahoma City. Did you know he was captured with dozens of official Iraqi passports, Mcviegh's so called first time attempt at complex truck bomb making was an exact replica of that used in New York and his confederate Nichols wife was connected to Abu Sayef in the Phillipines? There are no coincidences in the universe of global terrorism.

Here is the rub. Look at a map. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan were one solid block of state sponsors of global terrorists networks and attacks on the US. Now, Iran is surrounded by Muslims who have regained their sovereignty from the corrupt elite and where women vote for the first time since Prophet Mohammed recited the Quran, thanks to the American people's sacrifices. Mass Destruction was ignored and the focus instead on finding weapon stockpiles in Iraq. 270 mass graves in Iraq, one of them alone, holding 300,000 murdered humans is a clear example of mass destruction, to deny it, is the same as ignoring the murder victim for lack of a murder weapon. 400,000 tons of explosives are clear evidence of a critical ingredient to WMD, without them is like making pancakes without milk. Russian MIG Jets, French Armaments, all transported during an arms embargo, while UN officials were paid off to look the other way, were never the subject matter of Dan Rather's 60 Minutes expose, but instead a transparent hatchet job on a war time President with the courage to take these conspirators on head to head.

Disagreement with the President's policies are welcome to healthy open factual debate but facilitating a string of falsehoods for political advantage in wartime is a disgrace.

So, here's hoping your Turkey was fresh and not overdone as some posts here seem ready for the "progressive" table.

Wow Jack - That's a long rant. I disagree with just about the entire thing so I'll leave it to others to speak about the many points you covered. However I would like to point out that 51% to 48% popular vote win by G.W. Bush is the narrowest marigin that a sitting president has been reelected by since records of the popular vote have been kept. That's right - even lower than Truman's win over Dewey in 1948. Clearly not a mandate or loud rejection of anything. About the only thing that the 3% margin indicates is that we live in a very deeply divided nation. So when W claimed to be a "uniter not a divider" I guess he was lying to the nation or he is an incompetent leader or perhaps both.

Great post, Pedro! To get this conversation on a higher plane, how many reading this know about the books and commentary of Kevin Phillips? More than 30 years ago he became famous as the author of The Emerging Republican Majority. More recently, he writes economic history incl. the history of the original Progressive movement 100 years ago and why "main street" (small business Midwesterners, for instance) Republicans are not always happy with the folks who give support to large corporations. Worth a read of his books, a web search of his articles! Regardless of what anyone thinks of my posts, Kevin Phillips reminds me of the Republican Party I grew up in (as opposed to the turn of this century Republican Party).

Hey boys, the bottomline "You lost!"

                     Have a nice day!

                          Jack Peek

Sadly Jack the entire nation, including you, lost.

A minority of Americans agrees with you, Pedro.

An you know what Pedro? If you start the same path again, "Bush Lied",or "the world hates cowboy Bush" doesn't mean were wrong.

The world and Oregon's "black and blue" left can hate Bush, but there is enough hate for everyone.

Lets just speard it around, its the multilateral thing to do. So, if you want the same path, by all means.."BRING IT ON!"

Special note: To LT and Pedro, Thank you! Since I have "hung out with you here" my personal best in the bench press at the gym has increased nearly 30 lbs a post.

May I remind you ,(an this is on the topic of insanity)of the following.

Ossama Bin Laden's network and state sponsors of global terrorism are the mortal enemy of every American, without consideration of political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, or religion, the USA is at war in Iraq and not at war with Iraq, the American electorate got it, in spite of collusion between the Democratic National Committee and elite media outlets strenuous efforts to portray President Bush in the role of our enemy. The American electorate came dangerously close to falling for it, instead the commonsense of the average voter prevailed. Terrorists networks are to be destroyed wherever they hide, along with whomever sponsors them. Peace is not the absence of war, it is achieved when your enemy can no longer wage war against you or your allies.

So Jack which is it? Is Bush a "uniter not a divider" or was he just saying that to get elected?

Is it the fault of the liberal media (again) that GWB can't unite Americans at a time of war? Or perhaps it's the fault of the French that the so called "leader of the free world" isn't leading the free world at all.

Anthony - You are correct that on election day people who share my view were in the minority. 51% to 49%.

Well Pedro.if Bush "messed" up!

He had help from people you know.

Where Bush Got His Marching Orders

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Secretary of State, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "San Fran Nan"

"Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Former Vice President, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Former Vice President, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F.. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do." - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."

• Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

SO NOW THESE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY

PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION,

AND THAT HE TOOK US TO WAR UNNECESSARILY !

TELL THE TRUTH

ABOUT THE PRESIDENT LEADING US TO WAR.

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In a slender way I sort of agree that Pres. Moron did not intentionally lie; in that, (to me), strictly speaking a 'lie' means falsifying a known truth. In Dumbo's case, and others in evidence, the ignorance is so vast they know nothing, let alone the truth of anything to craft a lie for.

As related before (on this blog), Wyden and Smith stood in their 'town hall' presentation in Oregon City, Feb. 2003, and spoke these same ignorances and, at the time, in their faces, I did not call them liars but I did tell them they were wrong and that none of the so-called weapons actually existed which the senators claimed.

So how did I know something that they did not know, or, that they did not know how to spot as being a lie? You know what? They didn't ask me How I knew. They said to me, 'there, there, Mr. Ordinary Voter, you don't know what you're talking about and you can't know what was in the documents we were shown.' (What I knew, by a sort of hands-on familiarity with the range of this stuff -- while Wyden, Smith, and the preceding comment's names had no science familiarity to spot lies with; same as people who never learn evolution science can uncritically adopt creationism fables into that void in their knowledge -- and especially of the narrow environmental tolerances of the hyped exotic 'weapons' which means the 'powders' and 'viruses' can not be 'stockpiled' in some sealed mayonnaise jar buried in the sand under the porch of al'Funk & al'Wagnall's since noon today. It takes a class 3 lab to concoct and hold these things, ('bio-chem weapons'), and they expire outside of that environment, unless maybe if they are hermetically sealed which is a big 'IF' and even then there are mortality rates and half-life decay rates which all combine to know that, bottom line, if he ain't had any new ones in four years then he ain't got any left now. Besides, Iraq never had a class 3 lab, nevermind class 4. And real slow now, as if this has any chance of meaning something to you, Oh, SHOUTING ONE, every. WMD. that. was. ever. in. Iraq. was. made. in. USA.)

So, apart from how much they knew, about which they had the possibility to lie, Wyden and Smith and the rest are at least false in saying nobody else could know, better or different from, what they don't know beyond some words written for them on a piece of paper, by someone who either doesn't know or is lying -- and they don't know and they don't check. Wyden and Smith and the rest did know (c. 2002) that USA supplied every esoteric 'weapon' Iraq ever used and that all uses were known. There were no cases Iraq used something 'we' didn't know the source and amount of.

(Slightly aside, on the subject of 380 tons of misappropriated 'high exposives' -- some recent reports included mention that 'during the looting' (whatever that means), across the street had been stored and was stolen vials containing 'live human AIDS and black plague viruses.' Did anyone else read such mention? Anyway, it was lying. It didn't happen, there, as described. Scientifically impossible.)

Anyway, the only defense for Dumbo being charged as psychopathic liar and despotic war criminal is that he is too stupid to lie. Any moron can be a war criminal -- maybe that's 'only a moron can.'

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Jack - So if I correctly understand your really long post you are saying that GWB is not really in charge and is taking "marching orders" from the Democrats you listed above. No wonder the rest of the free world doesn't agree with U.S. policy on Iraq.

By the way, all of the statements above dated after 9/11/2001 were statements of support for president Bush, during a time of war, made by the "loyal opposition". The statements were made after they (members of the Senate and House) were shown the faulty intelligence that was slanted by the Bush administration. All of this has been carefully documented in the published report issued by the bipartisan 911 commision, a best seller. Perhaps you could run down to Powells and pick up a copy and be a little better informed.

President Bush said he wanted to be "a uniter, not a divider" in the 2000 campaign, at the same time he was planning a quasi-isolationist foreign policy.

The events of September 11, 2001 gave him, and everybody else, some new perspective. From that moment, the President pursued policies that he felt were in the best interest of the country, and which needed to be pursued even at the risk of "division."

GWB certainly has done a marvelous job at dividing the country (and our allies) during a time of war. What a unique stategy. Usually these issues are addressed in a bipartisan manor for the "best interest of the country".

Pedro,

I guess you could say the same thing about Abraham Lincoln.

Nevertheless, your objection is frivolous. You started with a statement of Bush's that was basically voided by the events of 9/11. And in any case, how many presidents enjoyed bipartisan harmony throughout their tenure?

Save your energy for substantive arguments against specific positions.

In a slender way I sort of agree that Pres. Moron did not intentionally lie; in that, (to me), strictly speaking a 'lie' means falsifying a known truth. In Dumbo's case, and others in evidence, the ignorance is so vast they know nothing, let alone the truth of anything to craft a lie for.

Pedro,an lets not forget LT:

Anthony in his much admired way by me has called you an "idiot" The times I tried too explain to you that the slim, but winning majority of us "rednecks' can't seem to get through to you "mentally challenged" folks that the insults, name calling classically displayed in your above post are one of the reasons you lost. You people can't wait to gather around the "water cooler" and "GOSSIP" as you try to tell yourselfs, somebody loves me and do the group hug thing.

The fun of playing with you Pedro has been educational for sure, for you are the poster child of the "progressive's here in PDX.

The "mission" for you all will be to hold on to what little you have left in 08.

The thread here uses the word "insanity", oh my does it not fit you people. The support for the troops, including my 3 kids, from now on will be my work.

Two of them will go to Afganistan in March of 05, the oldest, my Son, will go back to Iraq for his 4 trip in January of 05. No time too waste here after they go.

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Since the Dumbo Liar began, people (and their children entering the workforce) can no longer get honest community-based jobs and, instead, all they are offered is the moral death of their souls to be a paid mercenary in an illegal oil invasion, carry a gun and kill humankind. Or go without work and starve.

We feel your pain that three of your children now face low-paying public employment jobs in the military.

Soon, if talk starts of enacting a draft, the position I support is a universal draft for all public employment. Military welfare is not the only tax-paid job at the public's expense that the draft could fill. And with stronger public service commitment and social involvemnt by everyone, we could protect ourselves in common and be safer working together than by outsourcing that function and paying soldiers for our security, (when our security is of little interest to soldiers; they want action, and they want the paycheck, they hardly care how well we are doing -- we, the people). Taxpayers cannot afford military costs -- there's too much other more important public values to work on and pay taxes for.

Draft people to be cops. To be firemen. To be teachers. All the public employments: use the draft to gather job candidates. Draft people to serve on juries -- jury duty, it's called; can't get out of it, and the pay is lousy and the work is hard (you have to pay attention so focused it gives people headaches). Draft people to be representative, governor, mayor, school board, judge, all the people on public employment. Soldiers, welfare workers, DMV clerks, highway dept. workers, park rangers, prison guards, city commissioners and town council members -- Draft them all! You can't get out of it and the pay is lousy and the work is hard. Two years in each life given to building and participating in the strength of the community and the country. Civil service is the noble occupation. Then we could see our children, and future generations, enjoy the sense of accomplishment in taking part as both master and servant in civic affairs.

Start with the idea -- universal draft for public employments -- and comb through some of the details of making it work. Probably the system should use tests and interviews to match individual talents with the needs of the different jobs, with the reverse positive effect as well: that people do more reflection and self-assessment to better develop an inner sense of personal strengths, personal weaknesses, personal interests and abilities, helping youngsters prepare to choose and step into their careers.

Probably a lot of political authorities in public office have to slight the idea that you could draft someone to do their job. But then, what is it that they do in the job that an average person could not do?

And there should be some categories that no one at no time is drafted for. Absolutely private, personal, non-public jobs never to force anyone to contribute in. Only those born that way could get into such jobs, (after they pay their required two years' civil service debt). I'm thinking of preachers in church. Others might think of other jobs.

Think home. Think family. Think community. Think of your part in it. Perform.

In that frame of mind, probably few people think militarism and violent methods and murdering invasions is the personal best they have to contribute to keeping liberty and justice for all. Which are the terms in the contract each citizen decides whether or not to sign. Give allegiance to the republic nation's government and it gives liberty and justice for all. When the government breaks its end of the bargain, the personal allegiance deal is voided.

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Jack - I have never called you, Anthony or anyone on this forum an "idiot" or participated in name calling or insults of any kind. But I do see that you have! You came here to pick a fight, you got what you wanted and now you're whining about it.

I will pray that your children return safe and sound from service overseas. Please tell them that we all thank them for their service to our country and they enjoy our full and unwavering support.

Pedro, In so many ways you have,so many ways!

The post was against Bush "president moron", etc.

You people need to respect our decision, as you ask us to do yours.

You need to stop your whining, you lost! move on, because your path you follow, mark my words on this, will only lead to bigger loss's next time.

If you care too pass on my advice, don't say that you weren't told. My patience as is the "redneck, bible thumpimg, silent majority, trailer trash,(no like LT, YOU DIDN'T CALL US NAMES) but your so called idiot progessive movement did. The difference between you, LT,an me is I OWN UP TOO IT.

Since the Dumbo Liar began, people (and their children entering the workforce) can no longer get honest community-based jobs and, instead, all they are offered is the moral death of their souls to be a paid mercenary in an illegal oil invasion, carry a gun and kill humankind. Or go without work and starve.

We feel your pain that three of your children now face low-paying public employment jobs in the military.

The above is what my post to Pedro was all about.

The college level intensity, not to mention class's my son takes, nor the life skills training my son-in-law now has ,(medic) my daughters training as a mechcanic results in the average wage in the outside as a auto tech is over 6ok$ an better in some isn't peanuts. The label of insane has been made for some direction of the progressive movement.HEY BRO! PLEASE, KEEP IT COMING!

Your, "loathing" of the milatary, well I KNOW WHERE THAT CAME FROM!

Hey folks, if you think it wasn't a mandate this time......that isn't a greyhound coming, it's a "steamroller" next time around.

For the record, my post was not meant to designate Pedro as an "idiot." Pedro is not an idiot, and whatever disagreement we might have with each other can be addressed in a more civil way.

I understand your frustration, Jack, but you really can do better and have an obligation to do so. Just concentrate on what you disagree with and make your point. If your case is strong, it will speak for itself.

Reading over the post here you have some serious whinners here. FIRST I AGREE WITH JACK. I have a son who is on his 3 tour of Iraq. This is after a Afghn. now lets examanine the low paying deal-- first off I think some have no clue. He turned down $145,000.00 yr to train Iraqi how to do intel. He reenlisted to go back. Notice how high the reenlistenment is for the combat troops. I understand it because im a 2 tour Nam vet. If you havent been there dont run your mouth about it. My younger Brother is a AH-65 Apache pilot (college grad--Buisness major)and currently flying air support in Bagdad. He could get out and go to work for an airline but this is also a personel thing with him. You develop a close comoradry with guys who "catch your back" when shit hits. You develop a diffrent type of friendship when close friends get killed and you fight on for them. It gets very personel. My son dont have to be there he has the security clerances and education to go to work for most defence contractors. He has turned down several 6 digit jobs for the Mil.

Kerry lost this comradery with us and all I can say is screw kerry. We are the band of brothers who defeated him and this is for the troops in Iraq and my friends on panel 38 and 43 of the wall.

Now the military has a Commander in Chief who can conduct a war. Remember you libs had a chance and you blew it in Somollia. You libs couldnt whip a war lord. Bush has freed 50 million people and closed the rape rooms. j FRAUD kerry would move us back to Somollia cut and run tactics and sell us out to UN. Funny thing is the young guys laugh about thier medals and say they earned then and they are not "kerry issues"

I think the problem is as I see it is Bush won and you whinners have 4 more years of tears.

Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 66-67-68

Mike B, Thank you my brother!

For the record, my post was not meant to designate Pedro as an "idiot." Pedro is not an idiot, and whatever disagreement we might have with each other can be addressed in a more civil way.

Dear Anthony, With respect, with respect I answer your post..There is no more time for civil discourse if you line your somewhat critical post at me and fail to mention that Pedro's post was offensive, it was rude, it was not respectful of the office of the president,something I RESPECT.

Its sort of like a "HATE CRIME", I couldn't go to Pedro's house and burn a cross, burn his car, beat him up, as a white person, I maybe charged with a racial crime.........but until he is charged for the same injustice to me, redirect your critical thoughts too us both, or don't bother. Iam as you said, Trying some outreach to help us all get through times I FEEL will be alot rougher sooner then later.

If Pedro isn't an "IDIOT" for not backing off the kinds of things I told him and others were partial reasons the left lost. Perhaps Anthony,he at best has alot to learn.

Jack,

There's no doubt Pedro has a lot to learn. I'm just appealing to you, as someone sympathetic to your position, to refrain from personal insults. I probably wouldn't even have bothered, except that you interpreted me as calling someone an idiot.

If I've singled you out, it's because what you do has the potential to hurt my cause, whereas Pedro's folly is likely to give me ammunition.

In my view, if those of us with a more "red" point of view are going to have any impact here -- and not simply be dismissed as trolls -- it's important that we observe a high standard of debate.

That doesn't in the least mean that you have to pull punches and it doesn't mean sarcasm and ridicule are out of bounds. But I believe, the more soberly, politely and carefully you make your point the more persuasive force it's generally going to have.

Let me note that you said that your post to Pedro was about that "Dumbo the liar" passage. That post was written by Tenskwatawa, not Pedro. No doubt Pedro said other things that annoyed you.

I agree what Tensk said was ridiculous and offensive, but I hardly notice because more often than not I just skip his posts, knowing from experience that they're likely to be filled with such dross. Why waste my time?

I'd hate that your worthwhile points would similarly be lost because people were put off by your more intemperate comments, even if they don't reach the level of uncivil discourse Tensk routinely resorts to.

I guess Anthony, time will tell if any course of debate will matter.

I say again, I TRIED your approach, and was taken to the cleaners for it.

If you have followed my issue of HIGH RISK group homes next to schools, all I have told guys like Randy leonard has been ignored. A client was killed as I SAID would happen...only a client, that didn't count.

Iam SICK of the roadblocks of being PC when you tell people like Randy who's job is community safety ( 25 YRS OF IT, ASK HIM), and then you get mad, because no one should die from purely stupid politics.

Jack,

It's not about being "PC" it's about getting your point across.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't understand what you mean by saying, "I TRIED your approach and was taken to the cleaners for it." I'm not sure what "taken to the cleaners" refers to, but how do you think people are going to respond when you express a contrary view point? By showering you with rose petals? Do you think by running out the barbed wire and chucking grenades you're going to get a better response from people?

Stop being so defensive and learn to roll with the punches. You can give as good as you get without losing your cool. Most people here are pretty reasonable. Yeah, everybody is prone to a little excess from time to time, but that's life. Learn to live with it. We're all human.

Just don't overdo your own excess. If others want to make fools of themselves, that's their business.. As an opposition poster here, however, you need to observe a higher standard.

The approach I took from day one was, polite, respectful,asking for commonsense and compromise to what is a clear and present danger to a neighborhood.

The many meetings I organized, the countless phone calls......only to learn the "ROAD RULES" of how the real game of hardball politics is played.

Went to a meeting over in SW Portland, the topic was siting issues.....I learned quickly, that the "badguys" stacked the meeting with employed people of the various agencies to give testimony as if they lived in the area.

Caught red-handed, an redfaced were at least 12 people who before I was too speak, I asked the group to raise their hand as too how many worked for the city, county or state that had control or input on the placement of these people.....even the "rat" that placed the people behind me was there acting as a "citizen" giving testimony which of course all positive.

From then on....not to mention election donations given to the county reps that were from my area that I asked too help, did I work towards any other compromise but the one I worked for. I was forced to settle for "a good neighbor agreement" ( which by the way Mr.Leonard was asked to enlighten the blog as the the legal muscle it has which is nothing.)He did not reply of course.

When I had my stroke, and quit, and my wife was active in the neighborhood association, that so-called agreement was reviewed every 6 months, since she quit, it has not been updated.

Sorry Anthony, I wish I could tell you more, but even animals when backed into a corner will fight.

The basic's of who I am is simple, the first job as a husband and a father is safety of my wife and kids.. The likes of Mr.Leonard and a host of others, has left that area open, I REFUSE to compromise on that aspect.

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