I agree with Mr. Sandler's arguments against toll roads. However, I am not so sanguine about the public's opposition, as Mr. Sandler seems.

My bet for the first toll lane/road in Oregon would be the Highway 217 expansion, not Dundee Or Damascus.

If we have to further screw up what's left of our egalitarian society by allowing toll roads, I suggest we run a state lottery open to all Oregonians of driving age to determine who gets to drive in the "Lexus" lanes. Anyone winning the lottery could use the driving right or sell it to the highest bidder.

Let's see how many Libertarians would go for that idea.

You'd better brace yourself for more of this sort of thing. Unless people wake up fast, Measure 48 will pass and things like toll roads, the sell-off of public lands, and other entirely unacceptable outcomes of a cash-strapped government will become the norm.

I too agree with Russell's general position.

And I personally believe that the "Lexus lane" concept becoming fashionable with false Libertarians and traitor to true conservatism is repugnant to anyone who embraces fundamental American values. I think we can leave the Lexus lane example aside for the moment, however, because there is something which is much more immediate about the toll road plan Russell focuses on here in Oregon.

If they are true to their ideology, conservatives and libertarians would make the argument for toll roads based on the principle that people would have a choice to use toll roads or not. That is, in America we have the right to freedom of movement. As a practical matter, this has come to mean that we pay the cost of that freedom by using taxes to provide at least one reasonable combination of toll-free roadways for people to travel between two distant locales.

Russell notes a very important detail that I'm sure has been commented upon in Newberg and Dundee, but I haven't personally heard since I don't have access to the local press and conversation:

In a preliminary report, the Macquarie firm says tolls could pay the $325-$425 million cost of building and maintaining the Newberg-Dundee bypass, but only if a toll was also imposed on a parallel stretch of existing 99W to discourage motorists and truckers from avoiding the toll on the new bypass.

That is, if the Newberg-Dundee bypass were adjudged desireable and built, under this extortionate plan there would be no remotely reasonable "no toll" option to travelling between Newberg, Dundee, and Dayton. There is nothing more un-Libertarian or un-conservative, never mind more contrary to what we stand for in Oregon, than telling people they have no alternative when they travel in that region then to pay every time they travel on the only remotely reasonable roads available.

Time to smoke out the false Libertarians, false conservatives, who are really just antisocial, and poor excuses for progressives who would embrace this as an expedient for furthering a car-hating agenda, who would support such a fundamentally un-American plan.

Ask:

Well, I'll bite. I argue that toll roads not only should include a "free" alternative, but should be market priced. No one should have to pay a toll to get down 99W at 2 am. I believe in the concept, in theory, of congestion pricing. I guess that means I'm not looking to pay for the road itself with tolls, per se, but rather I am looking for a better way to manage our traffic problem.

The Dundee by pass is a prime example of a variable flow highway. No one on it at 2 am and everyone in Portland on it at 6 pm on Friday and 6 pm on Sunday. Anyone who would like to escape to the coast in a reasonable amount of time would gladly pay $1 for the privilege.

The same would work on 26 or 217 or I-5. Blue folk ought, by all logic, to be behind this, as it promotes not only less car usage, but also less greenhouse gas because cars get to and from their destinations at more economical speeds and with shorter (time) trips. I can't understand the logic behind Russ's comment - Tolling to control congestion just punishes the poor and rewards the wealthy. To me, the wealthy are the ones paying the $15 toll. That's "their fair share." Since when is the left concerned with allowing the wealthy to NOT pay their fair share?

I understand the poor tax notion, but frankly don't agree with the notion. I'm from Jersey where the turnpike and the Garden State Parkway are well traveled toll roads and most people simply pay the toll because it gets them where they're going faster and it's worth the money. If it's not worth the money, take an alternate route.

I also understand that our geography means there are few alternate routes, which is really why we have the traffic problems around downtown that we have. And that makes congestion pricing on, say, 26 not as attractive, because there aren't many good alternative routes.

However, with the Dundee bypass, and the subject of this post, it seems the toll option is perfectly fair and reasonable. If you are going to the beach and can afford it, you will pay the $2 toll or whatever it is to ride in the "Lexus lane" (great class warfare label there, guys). That will leave the non-bypass highway much freer for the poor who are just traveling to their minimum-wage job at the casino (do I have that right?). They'll get there faster. The rich will get there faster. However, if you DON'T have a toll, everyone will use the bypass, and you'll have a traffic-free Dundee core and a snarled, under-engineered bypass.

All roads are already toll roads; it's just that right now we pay the tolls indirectly through things like the gas tax.

I understand the poor tax notion, but frankly don't agree with the notion. I'm from Jersey where the turnpike and the Garden State Parkway are well traveled toll roads and most people simply pay the toll because it gets them where they're going faster and it's worth the money. If it's not worth the money, take an alternate route.

Don, what is the alternate route (not just for those going to the coast but for those living in Yamhill County ) to having both the bypass AND 99W as toll roads? Do you really want to encourage people who know the area to travel surface streets so they don't have to pay a 99W toll? And how would the folks who live in the neighborhoods near those surface streets like people "taking an alternate route" on roads only meant for local transportation?

Or were you saying only the bypass should be toll and 99W should be free?

bonds payments and routine maintenance now consume nearly all money from fuel taxes and fees

Actually the current fuel taxes and fees don't cover routine maintenance. ODOT is currently routinely deferring maintenance that will result in even more costly repairs to roads in the future.

It is difficult to escape the conclusion that previous generations of Oregonians built a highway system the present generation is unwilling to pay to maintain and enlarge.

While true, I am not sure this has the meaning you intend. The fact is this generation is making far more use of the highway system than previous generations. The result is that there are far higher costs per person.

But what makes it even more difficult is that previous generations built surplus capacity in many places. That surplus has made the costs of the increasing use of roads invisible to the users. And as the new roads have aged, their real maintenance costs are now becoming apparent as well.

It is also difficult to escape the conclusion that toll roads are being introduced as a means of rationing space on already congested highways.

Which I think would be fine if the money from the tolls went to enhance the alternatives for those who chose not to use the highway. People essentially end up paying to persuade other people to get off the road when it is congested. Or put another way, people pay a toll to subsidize other people's choice of an alternative because that choice benefits them with lower congestion.

Rationing highway space is certainly the motive behind the silly plan to tax Oregon motorists by the miles they have driven every time they fill up at a gas pump.

Not really. The motive behind that idea is that increased gas mileage is resulting in far lower gas tax revenues.

All roads are already toll roads; it's just that right now we pay the tolls indirectly through things like the gas tax.

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics. There is almost no relationship between the cost to provide roads for people's trips and the amount they pay in gas tax.

First, because the mileage of vehicles varies dramatically. While there is little difference in road impacts from and gas guzzling SUV and a hybrid, the SUV may be burning 5-10 times as much gas.

Second, the cost of the road capacity required for a trip varies dramatically. The proposal for the Newberg-Dundee bypass is largely to serve commuters and summer weekend visitors to the coast. If you drive the road at other times, it is unneeded. If you are one of many people who choose to avoid congestion altogether, your trips have very low costs compared to anyone using capacity that is only needed for peak use.

So if you toll a road only at the times it is congested you are more accurately assessing the actual costs to the users. As I pointed out above, the real question becomes how that money will be used.

There is, however, a larger issue with most of the proposals for toll roads. Most tolling proposals will to take general gas tax revenue and registration fees and use them to subsidize contruction of toll roads that will only be used by those paying the toll. This is much like the HOT lanes (high occupancy toll lanes) which serve a small number of people who can afford to pay, but are paid for by everyone.

As for tolling highway 99, I think it is a non-starter. The real solution is to rebuild 99W to serve the local communities it goes through instead of people commuting from McMinville to Tigard. If that is done, it will make the trip through town slow enough that most people who are just driving through will use the toll road. A design speed of 15 mph is really what is ideal on city street. That would still allow people to avoid the toll who were making a short trip, but the toll would more accurately reflect the real costs of making the decision to live in McMinville and commute to Tigard.

Most importantly, it would restore the downtown's of Newberg and Dundee as commercial centers serving their local communities, instead of leaving them as sacrificial victims to regional commuters.

Thank you very much, LT, for making the point I was trying to make even more succinctly than I.

Don, what is the alternate route (not just for those going to the coast but for those living in Yamhill County ) to having both the bypass AND 99W as toll roads?

The point of Russell's post was that the only way the private contractor would agree to build the toll bypass was if the alternate route was converted to a toll road also. I think you and I picked up on exactly what is wrong with that, and that was all I was speaking to in my comment.

As I said, I wanted to set the "Lexus lane" argument aside because I feel that opens up a much deeper argument about what I believe the best of our American values are all about, and that we aren't willing to have in this society at present. After all we're arguing right now about whether the US will became a nation that erases it signature on the Geneva Conventions.

A long time ago I did address our road problem in Salem and along with an engineer Zurcher[ forgot his first name] about the wear and tear on hi-ways.With two ODOT engineers we concluded the problem with hi-ways were from truckers. Two ways of solving the problem was to make truckers pay their fair share of maintenance by charging a higher fee. [ this went the way of having corporations paying their fair share of taxes] The second proposal was for truckers to use more dollys under the trailers.[ again killed by the trucking industry] A very large portion of ODOT money went to the Trolley cars of Portland. Expensive to put in and to operate. I want to put-in this disclaimer: I do not like the Cascade Institute, but they are going to release a study of Portland's trolley system, should make for some interesting reading Than their was making bike paths which is up to debate as to who should pay for these. Pay roads are another fleecing on individuals because the lobbyists are so powerful in Oregon and the voters are not.

Of course we all want freeways to be free. But the cost of building a freeway is unbelievably high. The legislation to allow a toll on the Newberg-Dundee bypass was passed in 1995, when the project was estimated to cost $60-80 million. Eleven years later, the cost is six times that much and bogged down with never-ending excruciatingly detailed environmental studies and lawsuits by land-use advocates and property owners in the right-of-way. The chances of actually building a new highway in this state are virtually nil.

The legislation to allow a toll on the Newberg-Dundee bypass was passed in 1995

A toll road did not pencil out then, just as it doesn't now. You couldn't set the toll high enough to pay the full cost of the new road. It had nothing to do with environmental studies or lawsuits, it was straight economics.

The chances of actually building a new highway in this state are virtually nil.

Without a substantial infusion of cash from somewhere that may be true. Right now Oregon can't even afford to properly maintain its existing highway network. All the new construction is being paid for by deferring needed maintenance. Its the standard Republican trick of stealing from the future.

The point of Russell's post was that the only way the private contractor would agree to build the toll bypass was if the alternate route was converted to a toll road also.

I took his comments to be broader than that. My understanding is that they have agreed to explore other ways to reduce the amount of traffic that will continue to use downtown Newberg and Dundee. The truth is that, if you are going to toll 99W, there is probably no need for the bypass. Tolling the existing road alone could probably reduce the traffic to manageable levels. You could spend the toll money upgrading the railroad to allow commuter rail so people would have an alternative to driving.

Most people who will use the proposed bypasses will be those from out of state and tourists with money to burn anyway. Driving is a privilage - not a right, and if we have to pay for the privilage, so be it. If you can't afford to drive these toll roads, then don't drive them at all. People against toll roads act as if it is a right to drive them, when it is really a privilage to drive them. If you want good roads, you will have to help in some manner because thats what goes with the territory of being a privilage.

"A toll road did not pencil out then, just as it doesn't now. You couldn't set the toll high enough to pay the full cost of the new road. It had nothing to do with environmental studies or lawsuits, it was straight economics."

The toll was never expected to pay the full cost of the new road. But the delays due to the studies and lawsuits and subsequent development in the anticipated right-of-way have indeed raised the cost to exhorbitant levels.

The toll was never expected to pay the full cost of the new road.

That was the legislators' original premise for tolling it. After the initial study showed it couldn't pay for itself, I believe they included money for the bypass in the list of projects to be funded by the last state gas tax increase that was defeated (in 2000?) - with the majority of people in Yamhill County voting against it. The problem has been and continues to be economics.

I never knew that toll roads were a republican vs. democrate issue. Are there opinion polls that demonstrate this?

Get Real buckaroos !

Start the give-away of Your Public Assets,...and just like your jobs, or your kids jobs now having GONE to China and India,..you'll never get them back ! ! These tolls are not going to be temporary,..and if you think so, start reading the fine print. These toll roads are going to net these Austrailian and Spanish companies, hundreds of billions of dollars in the next 75 to 99 years and there is likely nothing you or your government can EVER do once they are leased out, short of an international court battle ! ! Figure out just once, the trillions of dollars of commerce and individual enjoyment that untolled roads have already provided, and you'll only have the option left of slaying anyone who even suggests of such reeking, stupid, unthought out moves,...as the giving away of the very infrastructure, that has netted thusfar, untold ritches for all of business,...and the enjoyment of being mobile for FREE,...any time of the day ! Figure again, what real monies in todays dollars have already been invested in our road system, and then you will come up with such high figures of worth,...that there is No Company or companies on this Earth,that could ever think of affording the payback that " WE THE PUBLIC," would have to DEMAND on these owned investments ! Would you sell off your own home for nothing,..and let another family lease it back to you, for never ending RENT ? I think NOT ! Do you prefer to squander what has already expired into this road hardware and give it away for FREE ? With 3 or 4 billion dollars offered by these companies for a 75 or 99 year lease on your property, that's exactly what your doing. Like how stupid can any group of misinformed humans get? If you prefer to do this,..then by all means let the Road Leasing People/Companies move in on your roads,..and let them squat for another 75 to 99 years,...and you'll most likely see these road tolls increase every year besides and who's going to get paid for the maintenance on these roads, surely not any of the roadbuilders here in Oregon I think. That money, just like the Toll money, will only go OVERSEAS and out of your picked pockets! From the initial investments, by our grand parents,the greater investment by our own parents,...and now finally to walk away from Public Infrastructure,...of any kind, just because a few weak minded folks can't figure out how to Maintain it,....is insanity and indeed the same wrecking house we've already created for lost Industrial and Technical Jobs, in this and other "decaying," countries !
Either maintain your Public Infrastructure, Utilities, Air Waves and Water,....or die like rats in the gathering pollution of our Rivers and Oceans,..and hand to your children NOTHING but more added debt, handed out as perpetual tolls and takeovers on everything you've already paid for, time and time again ! Finally,...when your through giving away, wrecking or handing over OUR already built and paid-for road system,....why don't you also sell off one of your children for body parts. Your parents, would have had nothing to do with that option, now would they ? And yet you think it's alright to piss away our earned 24 hour a day FREE access to our own roads, just as our Forests were stolen years ago with no public payback,....as Mining companies made off with your metals and coal without payback and as now a few reeling stupids, from both inside and outside Government suggest that "You the Puclic NOW," give away the FARM that feeds you, after you've already payed for it ! Your all crazy then, and still running away from the fear of invisible terrorists at the shopping mall and football games. Why don't you privatize your Police, Fire and Military while your putting up Toll Roads,....go ahead,..why don't YOU ? There's 20 better ways to fund roads,....and two of them is to tax the proceeds from Gambling and increase the REAL deserved deposite on ALL fricken beverage containers,...and I mean all of them to 15 to 25 cents each ! Then your going to implement a Ratioed tax on road fuels,..so as the price of fuel goes to 8 dollars a gallon,...your road repair monies stack up proportionatly,.... you dummies ! You won't do that however,....because you think some homeless guy or family now living out of their automobile or truck, just might be able to sustain themselves, by collecting discarded plastic and aluminum containers,..that are also polluting our oceans now,... right ? Lastly, I thought that Oregonians were pretty resourceful, and not going to fall for the " New York Minute," crap, having lately shipped-in from the east coast. I know your Oregon Elders weren't this stupid, because they knew what was valuable and they handed you a paid for legacy and some responsibility besides. But, it appears that the new breed of Oregonian, likes to play LOOZZER instead.
That reminds me however,...will you "Give Me," the Toll lease on a few bridges around here? I'm going to have to be living under one of them pretty soon after my job goes away, as I just wanted to hand something down to my kids.

Brent Davis

You better fight this one now, or your state will become like Texas. Damn Texas. Their @#! Trans Texas Corridor is a toll network that is being handed to a Spainish company named Cintra to set the tolls on us. It is costing the state so much there is no money to build the roads the cities need. So guess what, every main road in a city like Austin is being built or converted to toll roads. Every state seems to be saying the same story, no money to build roads. Well I am here to say this is a scam to take our resources away, privatize our roads, track our movements, take our money. Fuck them. May God have mercy on our basic rights.